Well, we certainly thought we were cutting edge... And I do have stories, we were mostly young and foolish...
My current sound system is really very nice, Kef 101 and home-brew 10" subs (4 of'em). My wife likes good, deep bass, and we found an acceptable compromise for placement in our wall columns. The 101s pretty much disappear. Sound is quite good, though. The room is quite rigid with slab floor, ICF (Insulating Concrete Forms) exterior walls and all.
I've been following your thread, and admire your project.. At present, my project involves 1100 Ceanothis plants that need to go in the ground....
My current sound system is really very nice, Kef 101 and home-brew 10" subs (4 of'em). My wife likes good, deep bass, and we found an acceptable compromise for placement in our wall columns. The 101s pretty much disappear. Sound is quite good, though. The room is quite rigid with slab floor, ICF (Insulating Concrete Forms) exterior walls and all.
I've been following your thread, and admire your project.. At present, my project involves 1100 Ceanothis plants that need to go in the ground....
We were all young & foolish....
...and the survival rate...is still being tabulated...Please Stand By.... 😉
Lovely home, and a admirable 'stealth' install of your system. It disappears, but with 4 subs it certainly can make its' presence known. *G* And I'll applaud your use of ICFs'. Know the specifics of them, and wonder why they're not being used more often. Although home construction technologies have improved, so little is being actively applied on a useful 'large scale' by the industry. Our recent install reminded us of that, being in the midst of a new development in progress. I've yet to be impressed by any 'mass market' homes' construction. If it's faster and cheaper, it's there. Don't expect much more than house wrap on the exterior, and it's still just a pile of sticks nail-gunned together. But I'm just another old cranky, crying in the wilder mess...
1100, huh? *long, thoughtful pause* I wish for you soft soil and the type of planting weather that make the project less daunting. I'd hope that they're small enough that you can use one of those 'step on' planting tools, that create that nice little hole you can 'pop' them into. Still...that's a lot of flats of plants to place (I like alliteration...*L*). I can see time in the hot tub or sauna in your future as well. Barring that, there's always bourbon or y'alls favorite 'pain killer'. 😉
My spouse is a plant person. For a time, we tried doing a wholesale nursery outside of Houston. (Couldn't grow big enough fast enough, didn't have the capital to keep it afloat.) So I can relate to facing a large quantity of plants...but I didn't have to plant them...
*L* Well, most of the preceding has absolutely nothing to do with audio, but I hope it's entertaining on some levels. Thank you for your attention and support; that's why I'm here, after all. You, Magnasanti, Glorocks, Cochleus, and contributors of their stature are just the people I want and need to help focus my efforts and keep me from doing the profoundly stupid on a budget that approaches doing the impossible with nothing. I've got a track record of doing the improbable with very little, so in some ways you could say I've got nothing to lose either. *L* I guess I like a challenge...but I suspect I should avoid windmills...that could hurt....😉
("OK, Sancho...saddle up...") *smirk*
BTB...as a 'puter person, I think you might find this interesting...
Forget Space-Time: Information May Create the Cosmos
...and I'm cool with it, as long as we don't 'blue screen' ourselves...
...and the survival rate...is still being tabulated...Please Stand By.... 😉
Lovely home, and a admirable 'stealth' install of your system. It disappears, but with 4 subs it certainly can make its' presence known. *G* And I'll applaud your use of ICFs'. Know the specifics of them, and wonder why they're not being used more often. Although home construction technologies have improved, so little is being actively applied on a useful 'large scale' by the industry. Our recent install reminded us of that, being in the midst of a new development in progress. I've yet to be impressed by any 'mass market' homes' construction. If it's faster and cheaper, it's there. Don't expect much more than house wrap on the exterior, and it's still just a pile of sticks nail-gunned together. But I'm just another old cranky, crying in the wilder mess...
1100, huh? *long, thoughtful pause* I wish for you soft soil and the type of planting weather that make the project less daunting. I'd hope that they're small enough that you can use one of those 'step on' planting tools, that create that nice little hole you can 'pop' them into. Still...that's a lot of flats of plants to place (I like alliteration...*L*). I can see time in the hot tub or sauna in your future as well. Barring that, there's always bourbon or y'alls favorite 'pain killer'. 😉
My spouse is a plant person. For a time, we tried doing a wholesale nursery outside of Houston. (Couldn't grow big enough fast enough, didn't have the capital to keep it afloat.) So I can relate to facing a large quantity of plants...but I didn't have to plant them...
*L* Well, most of the preceding has absolutely nothing to do with audio, but I hope it's entertaining on some levels. Thank you for your attention and support; that's why I'm here, after all. You, Magnasanti, Glorocks, Cochleus, and contributors of their stature are just the people I want and need to help focus my efforts and keep me from doing the profoundly stupid on a budget that approaches doing the impossible with nothing. I've got a track record of doing the improbable with very little, so in some ways you could say I've got nothing to lose either. *L* I guess I like a challenge...but I suspect I should avoid windmills...that could hurt....😉
("OK, Sancho...saddle up...") *smirk*
BTB...as a 'puter person, I think you might find this interesting...
Forget Space-Time: Information May Create the Cosmos
...and I'm cool with it, as long as we don't 'blue screen' ourselves...
Thank you for the compliment. We took 4 years to design it..
Yeah, 1100 4" pots. A lot of stuff to plant. I apologize, I really didn't mean to sidetrack this thread. I'll shut up now...
jay
Yeah, 1100 4" pots. A lot of stuff to plant. I apologize, I really didn't mean to sidetrack this thread. I'll shut up now...
jay
Oh, sidetrack away...I do with unremarkable frequency. *L* Keeps it light...
Besides, I'd like to sit and hear some of those 'back in the days' stories. The trials and travails of the minions, developing empire...there's lessons in those. Most were hard won, no doubt...
Besides, I'd like to sit and hear some of those 'back in the days' stories. The trials and travails of the minions, developing empire...there's lessons in those. Most were hard won, no doubt...
Well, there was our "experimental death ray". . .
For those that don't remember the Infinidy 1001 speaker, it was a 12" 2-way, using (depending on what we got, CTS, Becker, or Eminence woofers), and 2" Peerless cone tweeters. Xover was made from a few resistors and a pair of 6.8 uF mylar caps. We listen-tested every box for cabinet leaks and tweeter buzzing....
One day, I noted we had a bunch of slightly defective tweeters. They were too bad to put in the production speakers, and were going to be returned. I took 25 of them, wired them up series-parallel, and mounted them in the foam trays they came in.
That afternoon, we had fun chasing people around the parking lot. 5 kHz tones were remarkably directional, and a Crown dc300 made plenty of spl.
Management took it away from us, labeled it, "Experimental death ray", and put it on display in our listening room. Public listening room....
For those that don't remember the Infinidy 1001 speaker, it was a 12" 2-way, using (depending on what we got, CTS, Becker, or Eminence woofers), and 2" Peerless cone tweeters. Xover was made from a few resistors and a pair of 6.8 uF mylar caps. We listen-tested every box for cabinet leaks and tweeter buzzing....
One day, I noted we had a bunch of slightly defective tweeters. They were too bad to put in the production speakers, and were going to be returned. I took 25 of them, wired them up series-parallel, and mounted them in the foam trays they came in.
That afternoon, we had fun chasing people around the parking lot. 5 kHz tones were remarkably directional, and a Crown dc300 made plenty of spl.
Management took it away from us, labeled it, "Experimental death ray", and put it on display in our listening room. Public listening room....
*L* At least mgmt. had a sense of humour...that'd make up for a lot on those days that turned to feces....
I noted awhile back that BG had buried on their website a pic and short description of an 'experiment' (sounded like a 'weekend wonder' to me *G*) about an array they'd lashed together of a batch of their 6' ribbons. Looked about 12' h. x 2' w., claimed it could be 'heard clearly 1/4 mi. away with a moderately rated amplifier'. Yeah, I'll bet...it's a good thing their plant is outside of Reno, where you can Get 1/4 mi. away.
It disappeared from the site when it got 'renovated' into something more 'professional appearing'. I wonder if it was one of those 'How loud can you take it before it frys?' 'xpermens' *hic*LOL*
...and you torched a S-S amp? Sounds 'epic'. Do tell...*Conspiratorial S*
Stuff like this happens everywhere, I'm positive...a means of blowing off steam, a lively routine break. My first gig as a 'graphics fabricator' had a couple of epic 'foam tape frisbee fights', 12~18" dia. x 1" rolls sailing across the shop, striking the previously clueless 'target du jour' from all sides....mgmt. didn't object unless it went on too long or something got trashed...cheap thrills...
I noted awhile back that BG had buried on their website a pic and short description of an 'experiment' (sounded like a 'weekend wonder' to me *G*) about an array they'd lashed together of a batch of their 6' ribbons. Looked about 12' h. x 2' w., claimed it could be 'heard clearly 1/4 mi. away with a moderately rated amplifier'. Yeah, I'll bet...it's a good thing their plant is outside of Reno, where you can Get 1/4 mi. away.
It disappeared from the site when it got 'renovated' into something more 'professional appearing'. I wonder if it was one of those 'How loud can you take it before it frys?' 'xpermens' *hic*LOL*
...and you torched a S-S amp? Sounds 'epic'. Do tell...*Conspiratorial S*
Stuff like this happens everywhere, I'm positive...a means of blowing off steam, a lively routine break. My first gig as a 'graphics fabricator' had a couple of epic 'foam tape frisbee fights', 12~18" dia. x 1" rolls sailing across the shop, striking the previously clueless 'target du jour' from all sides....mgmt. didn't object unless it went on too long or something got trashed...cheap thrills...
At that time, we auditioned all Servo-Static systems in the sound room. Emerson, Lake and Palmer, to be specific... We'd had some QA issues, and the tech was really beating one up, and we had orders to ship. Finally, he said, "Ok, ship it. .. Hm, something smells funny..."
At that point, a bright flash and sparks appeared. The output pair had gotten so hot that the mount had melted, the transistors had slid down the heatsink and shorted out. The flash was the fuse.... 😉
Oh, we didn't ship that one that day...
At that point, a bright flash and sparks appeared. The output pair had gotten so hot that the mount had melted, the transistors had slid down the heatsink and shorted out. The flash was the fuse.... 😉
Oh, we didn't ship that one that day...
I'd love to have that BG array these days. There's a garage band (literally, too...it's in a repair shop, a building that we used to lease next door, 50 yd. away...) that's 'enthusiasm 9, music 5, vocals 3'. Bar R&R...metal-ish...the kind where they wear leathers and try to look threatening....
Keep the day job, guys. I'd love to blast them with some Capt. Beefheart or something that would wreak sonic psychosis, or just a surprise from the atavistic neighbor...
Yeah...'Blue-eyed Beans from Venus'...That'll make 'em scratch their heads....*L*
Keep the day job, guys. I'd love to blast them with some Capt. Beefheart or something that would wreak sonic psychosis, or just a surprise from the atavistic neighbor...
Yeah...'Blue-eyed Beans from Venus'...That'll make 'em scratch their heads....*L*
*L* Oh, you're 'live'. Hi dere....*G* ^5's
That must have been popular, but only to the perps...*AIEE!* (Cap either hits floor or sticks, engaging 'wild dancing mode'...followed by the 'dawn of realization' that ones' been 'punked').
Occasionally the graphics painters would forget that the tool that they were using was hooked up to a 12KV neon transformer.....touch the tip and it BITES. Wouldn't kill, but it Definitely woke one up. Every nerve in that arm would ring like a gong for about 15 min. afterwards...
That must have been popular, but only to the perps...*AIEE!* (Cap either hits floor or sticks, engaging 'wild dancing mode'...followed by the 'dawn of realization' that ones' been 'punked').
Occasionally the graphics painters would forget that the tool that they were using was hooked up to a 12KV neon transformer.....touch the tip and it BITES. Wouldn't kill, but it Definitely woke one up. Every nerve in that arm would ring like a gong for about 15 min. afterwards...
...it later became a footstool in the breakroom, a graphic reminder of 'things not to be done to salable equipment under test...Please...'
I'll bet mgmt. wasn't amused by that...I mean, I remember the S-S wasn't a real 'entry level product'....
I'll bet mgmt. wasn't amused by that...I mean, I remember the S-S wasn't a real 'entry level product'....
"We'll just buff off the scorch marks, and viola'....go to go."
"Right, boss". *sniff* (I wonder if that'll go away...before they seal up the box...?"
Ah, the excitement of excess frivolity...breaking things and coming up with a suitable bandaid to make it go 'elsewhere'....
When did you leave Infinity? And search for a new source of 'amusement'?
"Right, boss". *sniff* (I wonder if that'll go away...before they seal up the box...?"
Ah, the excitement of excess frivolity...breaking things and coming up with a suitable bandaid to make it go 'elsewhere'....
When did you leave Infinity? And search for a new source of 'amusement'?
I'll catch the retort later...got to go drain the dogs, refill same, then troll the fridge leftovers. Spouse is out to a NAWIC meeting (Nat. Organ. of Women in Construction), they keep meeting @ a restaurant that doesn't really deserve the title (*ehh* food).
Left Infinity for a dealer in Palo Alto, CA. worked there a while, bought the place, and went out of business a few years later. Been in the computer business pretty much ever since, currently doing software tech support. Revisiting audio in my second childhood... Can't afford to retire. I gather your wife is in the construction biz. Mine, too... Kitchen/bath design.
Actually, she (and we) are both in the 'construction biz'...we design/build/install playgrounds....
ashevilleplaygrounds.com
...as for 'retiring', same issue here. However, she wants me to 'retire' from AP as the 'Department of Heavy Lifting' (aka the construction/installation), and become an 'insultant' (fabrication design and material 'mismanglement' *sic*), and build a house on the 1/2 ache-er we bought a while ago. She's been happily planning and planting while pushing around various floor plans for the house she wants me to build. It's a small building site (the bulk of the lot is taken up by the creek, meadow/flood plain, mini-forest, slope up to the site 12' above the f.p.) so it's been a process of pushing around various versions of structures that would give us 2bdrm/2bath/live/kit/dine with a small shop/storage/parking combinations. Although we specialize in 'rustic' playgrounds or playstructures that 'spoof' (my term) architectural features of existing churches or homes, our personal taste runs to MCM/moderns similar to your home. Ergo my response to your pic and choice of ICFs'....
...but I'd hardly call 'retiring to build a house' retiring...tiring, Yes...*L*
By the end of that endeavour, I'd like to perhaps have Walsh clones down and Perhaps do an online venture...I've admired Newform Researchs' products and their whole approach, so something along that line but smaller....
Certainly a lighter product line....I picked up some 6x6s' (1-16', 5-12') and 4x6s' (2-8') today from Home Despot, all fresh from being treated (we use nothing but treated dimensional lumber...check out our website for our rationale...) and ghastly heavy. Fortunately, we have and use a Bobcat and its' forks to move them about, a boring rig to poke holes in the ground, and a boom attachment to pick up the sub-assemblies (decks, swing parts, roofs [I'm the only 'roofer' you'll meet that works 'indoors'...I like that...*L*] to build and install said bits 'n pieces...
Re construction details...I don't use nails, save a pin nailer to hold things together until I can stick a screw/bolt/lag into/through it. As I tell clients, I build for nuclear war. Kids are Easy, but still pretty much a force of Nature when it comes to applying 'stress' to a structure. Your children, you can discipline. The neighbors' kids, noooo....*L*
We've been developing a good 'rep' for what we do...but, if you've followed the links I've posted recently, we've hit the news of (for us) a major marketing area and we're pleasantly blown away by that attention. The client certainly likes the free advertising...and as Martha used to say, "that's a good thing". We'd like to 'play more' with clients of that ilk. They've got the wherewithal to afford our bigger projects, which we prefer to do for a variety of reasons.
As for my eventual 'side venture'...PM in transit. *G*
ashevilleplaygrounds.com
...as for 'retiring', same issue here. However, she wants me to 'retire' from AP as the 'Department of Heavy Lifting' (aka the construction/installation), and become an 'insultant' (fabrication design and material 'mismanglement' *sic*), and build a house on the 1/2 ache-er we bought a while ago. She's been happily planning and planting while pushing around various floor plans for the house she wants me to build. It's a small building site (the bulk of the lot is taken up by the creek, meadow/flood plain, mini-forest, slope up to the site 12' above the f.p.) so it's been a process of pushing around various versions of structures that would give us 2bdrm/2bath/live/kit/dine with a small shop/storage/parking combinations. Although we specialize in 'rustic' playgrounds or playstructures that 'spoof' (my term) architectural features of existing churches or homes, our personal taste runs to MCM/moderns similar to your home. Ergo my response to your pic and choice of ICFs'....
...but I'd hardly call 'retiring to build a house' retiring...tiring, Yes...*L*
By the end of that endeavour, I'd like to perhaps have Walsh clones down and Perhaps do an online venture...I've admired Newform Researchs' products and their whole approach, so something along that line but smaller....
Certainly a lighter product line....I picked up some 6x6s' (1-16', 5-12') and 4x6s' (2-8') today from Home Despot, all fresh from being treated (we use nothing but treated dimensional lumber...check out our website for our rationale...) and ghastly heavy. Fortunately, we have and use a Bobcat and its' forks to move them about, a boring rig to poke holes in the ground, and a boom attachment to pick up the sub-assemblies (decks, swing parts, roofs [I'm the only 'roofer' you'll meet that works 'indoors'...I like that...*L*] to build and install said bits 'n pieces...
Re construction details...I don't use nails, save a pin nailer to hold things together until I can stick a screw/bolt/lag into/through it. As I tell clients, I build for nuclear war. Kids are Easy, but still pretty much a force of Nature when it comes to applying 'stress' to a structure. Your children, you can discipline. The neighbors' kids, noooo....*L*
We've been developing a good 'rep' for what we do...but, if you've followed the links I've posted recently, we've hit the news of (for us) a major marketing area and we're pleasantly blown away by that attention. The client certainly likes the free advertising...and as Martha used to say, "that's a good thing". We'd like to 'play more' with clients of that ilk. They've got the wherewithal to afford our bigger projects, which we prefer to do for a variety of reasons.
As for my eventual 'side venture'...PM in transit. *G*
Finally...
...a long threatened 'experiment' comes to fruition...
Just some particleboard scrap utilized, not elegant but suitable. Sizing of the lower void was meant for a 6" V.3, but a V.2 pair was siting around idle, so...
Mags, it's just as I thought (if you're watching)....there is no noticeable negative effect with regards to gross cancellations of response, at least in a listening test. If anything, volume/spl seems to be augmented...which IMHO relates as to why GP 'pairs' their DDD units and indicates such in their specs.
Because of the difference in size of the cones of my drivers, there seems to be an 'evening out' of the tonality, much like what we'd experience with different driver sizes with a conventional speaker. If there's anything going on that's perhaps not apparent without 'getting deep', there may be the condition of the cones moving towards each other in the lower frequencies being cancelled out. If the seal between the two was airtight (which it certainly isn't now), any tendency to 'push air' as with a conventional driver might be damped out. Just thinking...
If there's anything noticeable that's a negative, the spatial qualities at the intersection/collar at the bases create a 'null zone' in the near field, say 1~4'. Not surprising, that. The radiation pattern tends to be tilted 'up' from the cones, more or less at a right angle from the cone's angle.
...but fun to play with, none the less....*G*
Next variant: Mount the units reversed from as shown, but spaced apart vertically...think of the lower unit above the upper one, but say 3~4' apart.
Will the created dispersions 'blend' better, much like the interaction of the T/M/W of a conventional speaker? My experience with my little clones says they will....stay tuned. 😉
...a long threatened 'experiment' comes to fruition...
Just some particleboard scrap utilized, not elegant but suitable. Sizing of the lower void was meant for a 6" V.3, but a V.2 pair was siting around idle, so...
Mags, it's just as I thought (if you're watching)....there is no noticeable negative effect with regards to gross cancellations of response, at least in a listening test. If anything, volume/spl seems to be augmented...which IMHO relates as to why GP 'pairs' their DDD units and indicates such in their specs.
Because of the difference in size of the cones of my drivers, there seems to be an 'evening out' of the tonality, much like what we'd experience with different driver sizes with a conventional speaker. If there's anything going on that's perhaps not apparent without 'getting deep', there may be the condition of the cones moving towards each other in the lower frequencies being cancelled out. If the seal between the two was airtight (which it certainly isn't now), any tendency to 'push air' as with a conventional driver might be damped out. Just thinking...
If there's anything noticeable that's a negative, the spatial qualities at the intersection/collar at the bases create a 'null zone' in the near field, say 1~4'. Not surprising, that. The radiation pattern tends to be tilted 'up' from the cones, more or less at a right angle from the cone's angle.
...but fun to play with, none the less....*G*
Next variant: Mount the units reversed from as shown, but spaced apart vertically...think of the lower unit above the upper one, but say 3~4' apart.
Will the created dispersions 'blend' better, much like the interaction of the T/M/W of a conventional speaker? My experience with my little clones says they will....stay tuned. 😉
Attachments
(The clanking of chains, the howls....)
Yez, the Doctored is filleting his charges again...("Igor, Put That Down!")
Hi, Gary. Yeah, this is/was one of those 'what if's' that intrigued me. Since the patent shows no real enclosure/cabinet beneath the driven cone....and since air motion as in an regular driver isn't really a practical factor in the sizes I've been making...I wondered what would occur if they were put 'butt to butt', literally. One could dispense with a 'base' such as I've been doing; simply a plate between two cones that would support the surrounds. Noting what the dispersion is doing presently, it might be interesting to suspend two radiating cones midway between floor and ceiling and see what occurs.
In my space, that's not a 'fair test', since the ceiling is 12' overhead. But in a conventional room with an 8~10' ceiling, it could be interesting.
What I've noticed with all of the drivers I've concocted, with their bases, if you pick them up and listen to them facing the bottom of the cone, they sound terrible. But, as soon as you place them on a desk top, or onto a column such as I'm currently doing (which is just to put them at a convenient listening height), they sound 'normal'....for a Walsh type driver, anyway. On two of the columns (an older pair), I'd drilled a hole to see if there was any appreciable bass being created. In actuality, No. No air movement from the 'port' (if you will), even holding a piece of tissue over it. Even tobacco smoke isn't moved ...
Now, the F's and A's DID create bass from the bottom, true. With a substantially larger cone structure involved, I'm not surprised. But it came at a price; too loud, too long, *pffht* went the voice coils. HHR has tackled that with modern materials and construction, so the reliability has improved without a doubt. But I suspect the inherent weakness is still there.
Having the cone structured in the way it is, with it's 'built-in crossover' in the materials used in the cone was and still is genius. And I can appreciate the 'full range driver' approach to reproduction by it's simplicity. But as you noted, physics IS physics. It's always struck me that it's better to have something do One Thing Well. You don't use a fork for soup, being really blunt about it.
If you do, it seems an exercise in frustration. You can only get so much done. *L* But that's just me, and the way the remains of my mind respond to things of this 'n that nature. *shrug*G*
And I've got other ideas to fry 'n try. 😉
Yez, the Doctored is filleting his charges again...("Igor, Put That Down!")
Hi, Gary. Yeah, this is/was one of those 'what if's' that intrigued me. Since the patent shows no real enclosure/cabinet beneath the driven cone....and since air motion as in an regular driver isn't really a practical factor in the sizes I've been making...I wondered what would occur if they were put 'butt to butt', literally. One could dispense with a 'base' such as I've been doing; simply a plate between two cones that would support the surrounds. Noting what the dispersion is doing presently, it might be interesting to suspend two radiating cones midway between floor and ceiling and see what occurs.
In my space, that's not a 'fair test', since the ceiling is 12' overhead. But in a conventional room with an 8~10' ceiling, it could be interesting.
What I've noticed with all of the drivers I've concocted, with their bases, if you pick them up and listen to them facing the bottom of the cone, they sound terrible. But, as soon as you place them on a desk top, or onto a column such as I'm currently doing (which is just to put them at a convenient listening height), they sound 'normal'....for a Walsh type driver, anyway. On two of the columns (an older pair), I'd drilled a hole to see if there was any appreciable bass being created. In actuality, No. No air movement from the 'port' (if you will), even holding a piece of tissue over it. Even tobacco smoke isn't moved ...
Now, the F's and A's DID create bass from the bottom, true. With a substantially larger cone structure involved, I'm not surprised. But it came at a price; too loud, too long, *pffht* went the voice coils. HHR has tackled that with modern materials and construction, so the reliability has improved without a doubt. But I suspect the inherent weakness is still there.
Having the cone structured in the way it is, with it's 'built-in crossover' in the materials used in the cone was and still is genius. And I can appreciate the 'full range driver' approach to reproduction by it's simplicity. But as you noted, physics IS physics. It's always struck me that it's better to have something do One Thing Well. You don't use a fork for soup, being really blunt about it.
If you do, it seems an exercise in frustration. You can only get so much done. *L* But that's just me, and the way the remains of my mind respond to things of this 'n that nature. *shrug*G*
And I've got other ideas to fry 'n try. 😉