LOL! I understand the hurt. A friend of mine recently worked in a club like that in London. They had these horns (but red). He said they really hurt!
Likely Void. They do some interesting things, but often very un-sensible when it comes to things like diffraction, and driver spacing.
Chris
Oh. How did that work out?...Magnapans hanging upside down from the ceiling in th elate 70s.
If you want something that sounds amazing and looks really cool, it's hard to beat the big Western Electric horns as the centerpiece. I've done that on a temporary basis, and it became legendary in Paris. You do need a fairly large space, tho maybe not as large as that place in Korea.
The great thing about the big W.E. horns (or similar) is the size and scale of the sound. They sound life size, and don't have to be loud to do so. Bass can be easy or difficult, it's up to you - and the space.
Details if you want them.
Details? Yes, please.
WE horns definitely provide drama.
Is there any modern production horn that can get close to WEs at least sonically?
I guess you mean something like this SPIRITLAND – come home to music
Spiritland offers "unique new music space" at London's Merchants Tavern | What Hi-Fi? the original setup had Tannoys which looked rather good.
Yes, there are two audio cafe/bars in London.
Spiritland now have custom Living Voice speakers. They chose throwing money at high end.
Brilliant Corner has 4x Klipsch corner horns.
Likely Void. They do some interesting things, but often very un-sensible when it comes to things like diffraction, and driver spacing.
Chris
red triangular diffraction horns
what were they thinking?
my ears hurt just by looking at them...
we do not want hurt; we want soothe
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From a sonic perspective, they should have very wide horizontal dispersion with narrow vertical. Multiple subs placed throughout the room.
This kind of narrows it down to line arrays/symmetrical wmtmw/ or horns. Perhaps two floor to ceiling subs for dramatic effect with smaller subs spread about. A line array can also have the effect of making sounds larger than life or very detailed which can also add to the excitement of the system.
Good luck on your project!
I think of a combination of dipole and horns for dispersion control down to at least 200hz and preferably to 100hz.
Then potentially dual 18" cardioid per side down to 30-40hz.
And if needed a vibration cancelling (PPSL etc.) dual driver subwoofer below 30-40hz (could be BR, TL or tapped horn)
Multi subs may take too much commercial space (less profits )
I am talking DIY and substantially more ambitious than the Westminsters (SPL, bass extension, WOW factor etc.)
And a more modern, industrial, minimalist look please
OK, but gave you actually heard a pair of the Westminsters, or checked the enclosure drawings? But if they're not butch / steampunk enough, that's understandable.
Oswald Mills has some interesting concepts to emulate Oswalds Mill Audio Product Gallery | OMA
only one of dozens
red triangular diffraction horns
what were they thinking?
edm vol knob on 11 and lots of substances taken
I WANT THE SPEAKERS (and the music) TO BE THE CENTRE OF THE SHOW...(in business speak, this will be the unique selling point)...Japanese HiFi cafes are of course the inspiration here.
Please consider two scenarios:
1. a relatively large venue with perhaps something like old Western Electric or Altec theater style speakers (big horns, maybe some open baffle goodness)
2. small/medium venue with perhaps JBL or Westlake main studio monitor style speakers (ie speakers that can be placed near or on walls to save space)
Have you considered that one requirement is as wide a sweet spot as possible? In my experience, this will drive you toward controlled directivity designs with ~90 degrees coverage horizontally. If you get narrower horizontal coverage, then you'll get a point source effect, but then the sweet spot shrinks in width rather dramatically to cover only a small portion of the audience. Most "audiophile" loudspeakers abandon this capability (wide controlled directivity), while all cinema loudspeakers must have this capability in order to cover the audience equally.
One of the reasons why I like the big full-range multiple entry horns for hi-fi playback is that you can walk from side wall to side wall across the listening room, and forward until you're even with the (toed in) corner-located loudspeakers and get equal imaging with no changes in imaging or timbre, etc.--which also gives you maximum seating space for a commercial establishment. The stereo image will be there for every seat.
If you add one more bridged center loudspeaker of the same type, then you've locked in the center of the stereo image and eliminated the "fundamental flaw of stereo", i.e., the 1.8-2.2 kHz perceived hole in response--for everyone in the room, regardless of their seating location.
I'd actually recommend something based on the basic design of the biggest full-range Danley Synergy (SH-96) such as this, which has a 90 x 60 pattern. But you don't need 11 drivers to do the job:
A custom-designed synergy horn with two to four 15" woofers and 2" apex-located compression driver (a separate midrange isn't required but could be added) would cover the audience seating, give you unsurpassed wide-field imaging--unlike the older WE horns and older corner horn designs, and also serve as conversation pieces.
Bill Waslo's Synergy Calc spreadsheet suffices for the basic dual-flare horn design. You could use as exotic or non-exotic a veneer or finish as you think you need. These would knock the socks off the audiophile community and also retain the ability to function in a dance/party environment without added distortion (i.e., very soft or very loud all sound extremely good).
YMMV.
Oh. How did that work out?
Well. It was in place for many years until the restaurant closed.
dave
If you want to maximize the floor space and ensure good imaging, then mount the horns close to the ceiling (assuming flat ceiling, and higher ceilings could be better up to 5-6 metres). This avoids the issues with corner horns that you see in "The Loft" K-horns below--which required the added extensions of the Khorn top hats from the bass bins...
Keeping the audience out of the direct sound path and outside of 2 metres just about the speakers radially will ensure a stable imaging sound field. Doubling the number of woofers from two to four 15" diameter versions (using mid Qts drivers) will provide you the capability to elevate them, and eliminate the immediate need for subwoofers as shown in the orange SH-96/DBH-218 stack picture further above. If you want to have "touch and feel loudspeakers" with subwoofers, then you could do that if you place them in the room corners on the floor. Only a small amount of absorption next to the horn mouths on the side and front walls (~60 cm squares) should handle any midrange early reflections to assure good imaging.
An externally hosted image should be here but it was not working when we last tested it.
Keeping the audience out of the direct sound path and outside of 2 metres just about the speakers radially will ensure a stable imaging sound field. Doubling the number of woofers from two to four 15" diameter versions (using mid Qts drivers) will provide you the capability to elevate them, and eliminate the immediate need for subwoofers as shown in the orange SH-96/DBH-218 stack picture further above. If you want to have "touch and feel loudspeakers" with subwoofers, then you could do that if you place them in the room corners on the floor. Only a small amount of absorption next to the horn mouths on the side and front walls (~60 cm squares) should handle any midrange early reflections to assure good imaging.
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That's usually the case with hi-fi venues--everyone's lease seems to always be ending and the owner looking for the next place to set his tent poles. Dave Mancuso apparently lost his lease more than once in NYC and actually went on hiatus with The Loft when new locations didn't work out.
The significant thing about Mancuso was apparently his continued emphasis on hi-fi sound and simplified signal path--no "special effects", queuing systems, beat matching, etc. In other words, no DJ or club stuff. He was reportedly a stickler for better playback devices: turntables, cartridges, clean and simple electronics, etc. It's an enduring formula that's survived to today.
The significant thing about Mancuso was apparently his continued emphasis on hi-fi sound and simplified signal path--no "special effects", queuing systems, beat matching, etc. In other words, no DJ or club stuff. He was reportedly a stickler for better playback devices: turntables, cartridges, clean and simple electronics, etc. It's an enduring formula that's survived to today.
In my opinion, you need Sweet speakers, nothing to bright.
As the provided videos show Jazz Coffee Shops are big in Japan. And they take their music seriously.
Given what I know of the UK (which admittedly is very little) what you consider a large room, the USA would consider a modest medium room. So, some sense of the actual room size is critical to the equipment.
Then we come to BUDGET? In Japan, they spend MANY thousands on the equipment and thousands more on content.
Then who is going to control the music, and I'm think along the line of a DJ here just to illustrate what I mean. People making and serving coffee and food, probably aren't in a position to keep fiddling with the Music. Then, how do you prevent the marginally employed teenagers working them from putting on DEATH METAL? Though there is certainly room for a range of music.
One option is to Network Stream using services like Spotify and Pandora. You can create long Playlists, or, unless I am mistaken, you can pick a genre (jazz, blues, ...) and it will stream a random selection of music from that genre. That is a way to keep the music flowing without the need for much monitoring.
Also, the selection of music on such streaming services is HUGE. Likely if anyone has a request, you can bring it up on Spotify and play it.
Also note that while Spotify and Pandora ... sound pretty good, there are CD quality streaming services like TIDAL, DEEZER, and similar. The bandwidth is higher, but still well within commonly available bandwidths.
Though NOTE, you do have to contact the Govt in the UK, or where ever, and get a license to publicly play music. I can't remember what the name of the organization in the UK is, though I've seen it a hundred times, but that is something you have to look into.
If you have the music on one end of the room, as shown in the videos provided by others, then those interested in music can sit closer, and those interested in conversation can sit farther away.
I would recommend somewhat large speaker playing with ease, rather than small speaker playing strained.
Fortunately, assuming the shop will be in the UK, the UK is a great place to by audio equipment, even despite the insanely high Value Added Tax. Good selection, good prices.
To make this a desirable place though, the audio equipment and speakers have to be WELL ABOVE average. No one want to go to a place and listen to a cheap stereo screaming away. It must have some finesse.
Just a few thoughts that occurred to me at the moment.
While we are at it, here is another Jazz Cafe in Japan using JBL Paragon speakers recently modified by Kenrick Sound in Japan. -
YouTube - Kenrick Sound - Paragon Delivery to ATRIUM Jazz Cafe
Steve/bluewizard
As the provided videos show Jazz Coffee Shops are big in Japan. And they take their music seriously.
Given what I know of the UK (which admittedly is very little) what you consider a large room, the USA would consider a modest medium room. So, some sense of the actual room size is critical to the equipment.
Then we come to BUDGET? In Japan, they spend MANY thousands on the equipment and thousands more on content.
Then who is going to control the music, and I'm think along the line of a DJ here just to illustrate what I mean. People making and serving coffee and food, probably aren't in a position to keep fiddling with the Music. Then, how do you prevent the marginally employed teenagers working them from putting on DEATH METAL? Though there is certainly room for a range of music.
One option is to Network Stream using services like Spotify and Pandora. You can create long Playlists, or, unless I am mistaken, you can pick a genre (jazz, blues, ...) and it will stream a random selection of music from that genre. That is a way to keep the music flowing without the need for much monitoring.
Also, the selection of music on such streaming services is HUGE. Likely if anyone has a request, you can bring it up on Spotify and play it.
Also note that while Spotify and Pandora ... sound pretty good, there are CD quality streaming services like TIDAL, DEEZER, and similar. The bandwidth is higher, but still well within commonly available bandwidths.
Though NOTE, you do have to contact the Govt in the UK, or where ever, and get a license to publicly play music. I can't remember what the name of the organization in the UK is, though I've seen it a hundred times, but that is something you have to look into.
If you have the music on one end of the room, as shown in the videos provided by others, then those interested in music can sit closer, and those interested in conversation can sit farther away.
I would recommend somewhat large speaker playing with ease, rather than small speaker playing strained.
Fortunately, assuming the shop will be in the UK, the UK is a great place to by audio equipment, even despite the insanely high Value Added Tax. Good selection, good prices.
To make this a desirable place though, the audio equipment and speakers have to be WELL ABOVE average. No one want to go to a place and listen to a cheap stereo screaming away. It must have some finesse.
Just a few thoughts that occurred to me at the moment.
While we are at it, here is another Jazz Cafe in Japan using JBL Paragon speakers recently modified by Kenrick Sound in Japan. -
YouTube - Kenrick Sound - Paragon Delivery to ATRIUM Jazz Cafe
Steve/bluewizard
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OK, but gave you actually heard a pair of the Westminsters, or checked the enclosure drawings? But if they're not butch / steampunk enough, that's understandable.
Don't get me wrong; I really like the front horn loaded coaxial idea.
I would probably make it 4 way though; I do not like the idea of elaborate box design to distract every bit of bass out of a 2 way speaker.
Not into butch/steampunk
Like minimalist & utilitarian
I note spiritland are near Kings Cross. That is the new trendy area. So much so that my employer has just moved their head office as was getting too expensive and the city of London proper was cheaper! I fear location will be far harder to sort than the sound system.
Good point
But I am actually trying to address that problem with providing something different.
So hopefully, enthusiasts would travel the extra mile to come and hang out in a music cafe that is in an area with cheaper rents. An old factory, warehouse conversion, railway arch etc...
Let me know if you want to do anything around Sheffield.
Chris
Chris has Sheffield on lockdown, you will need to kiss the ring to get anything done in that neck of the woods.
mono cafe, just one danley pole playing music
If I end up opening a cafe in a long and narrow space I might just do one big speaker
and name the cafe MONO
that would be really cool
Mr Sakuma's tiny cafe in Japan has a single Altec VOT as its main speaker YouTube
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