ML makes lots of wall mounted speakers, for surrounds.
Direct drive could be done a number of different ways.
I notice that ML makes two center speakers for home theater. But the don't use their electrostatics for the tweeter. They use a 1" dynamic dome driver.
Electrostatic must have issues with the large drive panels. This has always seemed curious to me.
Direct drive could be done a number of different ways.
I notice that ML makes two center speakers for home theater. But the don't use their electrostatics for the tweeter. They use a 1" dynamic dome driver.
Electrostatic must have issues with the large drive panels. This has always seemed curious to me.
bear said:
Fully agree on that, the only exception in my opinion being dipole woofers crossed over at 100 hz or below.
I guess I'm one of those 😉 If you are willing to spend the time, money and effort to build a good dipole woofer design *and* build your esl panel large enough to allow crossover below 100 hz, you won't be dissapointed.
You'll need biamping + active crossovers including eq for the woofer, a notchfilter for the esl's resonance + probably some eq for the esl. Amps for the woofer don's have to be that big, 70W is plenty for my own dipoles.
About direct drive: After playing with it for a few years I believe it's only practical for panels in the 1000hz and above range, read for instance this or this tread for some more detail and there's plenty more to find. The bottom line: There is a good reason that almost nobody uses dd amps 😀
Since crossover frequencies of 1k are utterly useless for combining esl's with dynamic drivers, my advice is: use transformers, they are not as bad as you think, it's often the rest of the chain giving the real headaches
Just my ideas...
maudio, thanks for finding those threads!
I'm impressed to see such here.
Of course I do understand that it would only be above some minimum frequency.
If that could be 300hz, not 1khz, I would say it could be a go.
How about the 6146B tubes. They are old horizontal output tubes, but they were mostly used for HAM radio transmitters.
They might be able to get the voltage higher.
Notice that ML makes wall mount speakers. Not much air behind them.
Notice that on their two center channel home theater speakers they don't use the esl panel for the tweeter.
There must be phasing or beaming issues in esl speakers because of the large panels.
But suppose you just had a real tiny panel for a tweeter? Maybe that could be direct driven with high voltage devices.
I'm impressed to see such here.
Of course I do understand that it would only be above some minimum frequency.
If that could be 300hz, not 1khz, I would say it could be a go.
How about the 6146B tubes. They are old horizontal output tubes, but they were mostly used for HAM radio transmitters.
They might be able to get the voltage higher.
Notice that ML makes wall mount speakers. Not much air behind them.
Notice that on their two center channel home theater speakers they don't use the esl panel for the tweeter.
There must be phasing or beaming issues in esl speakers because of the large panels.
But suppose you just had a real tiny panel for a tweeter? Maybe that could be direct driven with high voltage devices.
zenmasterbrian said:
Might be possible if you manage to increase the sensitivity of your panels. That would require very small membrame-to-stator spacing (< 1.5 mm), very high membrame tension (raising resonance!) and high bias voltage, requiring well insulated wire stators.
Small spacing will also mean reduction in air displacement = need for higher crossover point and/or steeper filtering. Not a good trade-off I think.
Be it tubes, fets or bjts, the problem is that with neither of those you can build quality high voltage amps without running into serious dissipation problems above a kV or 2 tt output swing. You'll need current as well
I truly believe it's not possible to build a good sounding ESL-woofer system with crossovers in the 200-300 hz range. I heard several such designs and none of those could convince me. Lowering crossover point to the 100 hz range is the only way to go.
Still, that's only my experience, if you're willing to compromise here and there you might end up with something you actually like. Don't let other keep you from experimenting😉
Using 2 6146B tubes, one could probably do 2kv p-p. Maybe one could also have some kind of impedance matching LC circuit that would raise the voltage at the lower frequency end.
Just an idea.
Any ideas why Martin Logan doesn't use the electrostatic unit for the tweeter on their two center channel speakers? Why do they opt for a dome dynamic tweeter?
Why to they opt for the opposite with their Left and Right tower speakers and surround speakers?
Just an idea.
Any ideas why Martin Logan doesn't use the electrostatic unit for the tweeter on their two center channel speakers? Why do they opt for a dome dynamic tweeter?
Why to they opt for the opposite with their Left and Right tower speakers and surround speakers?
Hi,
the membrane area of the centers is too small to achieve the required efficiency over the entire frequency range. So they use a dome tweeter. Since the ESL isn't used for high frequencies, stepup ratio can be selcted rather high,leading to high efficiency.
Capaciti
the membrane area of the centers is too small to achieve the required efficiency over the entire frequency range. So they use a dome tweeter. Since the ESL isn't used for high frequencies, stepup ratio can be selcted rather high,leading to high efficiency.
Capaciti
This design seems very interesting, with esl tweeter
driven by a 30 watt valve amp:
http://www.taelektroakustik.de/eng/ta2/ls_criterion/tci_-_aktiv.htm
(the whole speaker seem to be very well designed)
driven by a 30 watt valve amp:
http://www.taelektroakustik.de/eng/ta2/ls_criterion/tci_-_aktiv.htm
(the whole speaker seem to be very well designed)
Well , for a tweeter , you could even probably use a core-less transformer , if you don't like tradditional transformers.
Why do use a direct drive amplifier ? It is difficult to build ;
it dissipates a lot of heat ; is more dangerous than a typical transformer configuration because signal is not separated from ground , etc.
IMO the only practical use of direct drive amplifier is to drive ESL headphones, where above problems do not airise.
Regards,
Lukas.
Why do use a direct drive amplifier ? It is difficult to build ;
it dissipates a lot of heat ; is more dangerous than a typical transformer configuration because signal is not separated from ground , etc.
IMO the only practical use of direct drive amplifier is to drive ESL headphones, where above problems do not airise.
Regards,
Lukas.
If you folks want to roll your own Toroid input transformers, you can get pre-wound primaries (secondaries for this application) and you wind your own secondary (primary) in place. I've used these to make multi-tap power transformers for other projects but never tried them as either input or output transformers. I think you may need a special order one with dual primaries, but the price is pretty cheap:
http://www.toroid.com/standard_transformers/transformer_kits/transformer_kits.htm
Sheldon
http://www.toroid.com/standard_transformers/transformer_kits/transformer_kits.htm
Sheldon
Looking for toroids
Hello all,
I want to upgrade my hybrid ESL's with toroidal trannys (without spending a lot of money) and hopefully increase their HF output, which sounds a bit anemic without big-time EQ boost applied above 10khz. I'm a bit treble deaf anyway so bright on the top end actually works better for me. I don't think it's my deaf ears at fault here because I used an RTA EQ with pink noise generator and a mic for tuning and I had to a lot of boost to get anywhere near flat on the top end. I'm wondering if the problem is with the 100:1 tranny or the 1 ohm resistor or an interaction with the Carver TFM amp or a mismatch with the esl panel -- but I'm thinking a toroid upgrade with slightly lower turns ratio might be the ticket. Opinions are welcomed on that.
I can follow a wiring diagram but I have zero aptitude for electronics so I need advice on what toroids would work for my setup (described below) and where to buy them in the U.S. I am especially interested in the 2x6v/230v dual toroid setup described in Calvin's thread that compare well to the 75:1 Aplimo's ($$$). I found a German company that I think has them but I can't read German so I'm still lost.
Since I'm a complete DUMMY with this kind of stuff, I really need recommendations that include a brand name, part number and an [English language] source that will sell online.
Please let me hear any advise you have out there, folks.
Thanks!
Charlie
My current setup:
Perf steel stators 12"x48 / 51% open
1/16" D/S spacing
100:1 EI core trannys with 1 ohm resistor in front.
Active X-over @ 400hz
Bi-amp'd: Carver TFM-25's (225w/ch@8ohms)
10" TL loaded woofers
Hello all,
I want to upgrade my hybrid ESL's with toroidal trannys (without spending a lot of money) and hopefully increase their HF output, which sounds a bit anemic without big-time EQ boost applied above 10khz. I'm a bit treble deaf anyway so bright on the top end actually works better for me. I don't think it's my deaf ears at fault here because I used an RTA EQ with pink noise generator and a mic for tuning and I had to a lot of boost to get anywhere near flat on the top end. I'm wondering if the problem is with the 100:1 tranny or the 1 ohm resistor or an interaction with the Carver TFM amp or a mismatch with the esl panel -- but I'm thinking a toroid upgrade with slightly lower turns ratio might be the ticket. Opinions are welcomed on that.
I can follow a wiring diagram but I have zero aptitude for electronics so I need advice on what toroids would work for my setup (described below) and where to buy them in the U.S. I am especially interested in the 2x6v/230v dual toroid setup described in Calvin's thread that compare well to the 75:1 Aplimo's ($$$). I found a German company that I think has them but I can't read German so I'm still lost.
Since I'm a complete DUMMY with this kind of stuff, I really need recommendations that include a brand name, part number and an [English language] source that will sell online.
Please let me hear any advise you have out there, folks.
Thanks!
Charlie
My current setup:
Perf steel stators 12"x48 / 51% open
1/16" D/S spacing
100:1 EI core trannys with 1 ohm resistor in front.
Active X-over @ 400hz
Bi-amp'd: Carver TFM-25's (225w/ch@8ohms)
10" TL loaded woofers
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