Pass DIY friends: this may sound absurd at first, but stay with me if you would be so kind.
There’s things we all don’t like about about the amplifier options available to us, presumably... this is why we seek to build our own.
So, with all due admiration for the Pass-related contributions here:
Has anyone ever considered a “bad” cheap amplifier diy project that could run off the same supply and have the same output as a given pass diy design for purposes of comparison?
I’m not advocating anything dangerous of course. Something that works, but doesn’t meet the design goals the pass diy folks strive for / value.
It would be most instructive I think with more ease in adjustable “badness” parameters etc.
It could be an illuminating experience- to establish a baseline of what one doesn’t like and to learn to listen for it.
Some of us have less of a repertoire of amplifiers to choose from, or experience to draw on to figure these things out.
Obviously, I’m sure all pass designs of appropriate parameters for ones loudspeaker should be quite sufficient for most, but I am driving at the educational utility.
Also, to be honest, even with my best concerted efforts I have quite a difficult time sorting out what I am hearing between amplifiers without using language that is meaningless marketing copy drivel and is rather difficult to convey to others. I’d love to better understand.
Unfortunately it won’t provide nearly the same joy as watching an old “bad” B Sci-Fi flick.
Perhaps this has been discussed before?
I can feel ZM descending already. I think dial up is at peak speeds around this time in his neck of the woods! ;-)
There’s things we all don’t like about about the amplifier options available to us, presumably... this is why we seek to build our own.
So, with all due admiration for the Pass-related contributions here:
Has anyone ever considered a “bad” cheap amplifier diy project that could run off the same supply and have the same output as a given pass diy design for purposes of comparison?
I’m not advocating anything dangerous of course. Something that works, but doesn’t meet the design goals the pass diy folks strive for / value.
It would be most instructive I think with more ease in adjustable “badness” parameters etc.
It could be an illuminating experience- to establish a baseline of what one doesn’t like and to learn to listen for it.
Some of us have less of a repertoire of amplifiers to choose from, or experience to draw on to figure these things out.
Obviously, I’m sure all pass designs of appropriate parameters for ones loudspeaker should be quite sufficient for most, but I am driving at the educational utility.
Also, to be honest, even with my best concerted efforts I have quite a difficult time sorting out what I am hearing between amplifiers without using language that is meaningless marketing copy drivel and is rather difficult to convey to others. I’d love to better understand.
Unfortunately it won’t provide nearly the same joy as watching an old “bad” B Sci-Fi flick.
Perhaps this has been discussed before?
I can feel ZM descending already. I think dial up is at peak speeds around this time in his neck of the woods! ;-)
there's no need to build an DIY "bad" amp for that purpose , there are already plenty around made by known or less known brand , I personally made that test with an Microméga AMP3 and guess what's the result 🙄
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Are you sure? It gets a 5 star rating with the following review "Excellent amp as the whole range minium with a very good quality / price ratio. Its pure and balanced (see review on the CD) for Jazz ammateurs, vocalises, classical Latin music, hard rocker abstain.
I use this device for 2 months.
I hesitated with the equivalent at NAD, but for a few euros more, the difference is really worth the cost; I do not regret my choice. The channel is currently connected to speakers B and W series 200. These are almost 10 years old and are below the quality of the rest; will have to think about changing them !!
I am opinion takers on the models likely to agree with the Micromega minium." According to Google translate.
I think the OP wants to diy something cheap - and not pay 300 Euros to compare.
yes i am sure , 100 % sure , and my Micromega was upgraded , power supply , caps , etc...
Fact is that you need "high end" speakers to really compare amplifiers , because with "common " speakers you wont ear a lot or any differences , and you also must train your ears/brain to be able to "find" differences , it's not that obious .
in french we say : comparison is not reason 😉
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Fact is that you need "high end" speakers to really compare amplifiers , because with "common " speakers you wont ear a lot or any differences , and you also must train your ears/brain to be able to "find" differences , it's not that obious .
in french we say : comparison is not reason 😉
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Yes, and I was only joking! 😉
But thank you for sharing your experience - it helps others to compare notes who don't otherwise have the means to. One simply cannot rely on reviews anymore. Amazingzon, AliExperfect, etc. - they all have fantastic reviews for ALL their products. 😀
what's the goal - cheap but good amp ?
cheap means - no deep A class ..... so no big chunk of Alu , no biggie xformer etc.
cheap means - no deep A class ..... so no big chunk of Alu , no biggie xformer etc.
you'r right , but you can rely on PASS builds 🙂
you can make them as they are , you can custom them if you like , they are very well worth the cost , even with the pricey components .
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I think it would be easier for you to just listen to as many amps, integrated amps and receivers as you can get your hands on. It sounds like you want to hear the difference between what's out there and any Pass amp. Don't kill yourself by building stuff you might not like.
Don't use meaningless language to describe audio, if it's a problem for you.
Get your hands on a college level audio engineering book. It will describe proper terms such as peak, attack, decay, delay, frequency response, etc.
In the end you will find that some qualities go beyond proper audio language.
Here's the thing, any amplifier that doesn't blow up after a few minutes of power on and if it makes sound, is a wonderful thing. Most of this is preference and entertainment. Learn to listen and be honest. When something doesn't sound right, don't ignore it. Use your gut feeling, find the problem and fix it. You can use measurement gear, but if you don't have any, just listening carefully can go a long way.
Find and build a Pass amp that powers your speakers well and then compare it to what's out there. You'll see differences soon enough.
Just my 2 cents.
Vince
Don't use meaningless language to describe audio, if it's a problem for you.
Get your hands on a college level audio engineering book. It will describe proper terms such as peak, attack, decay, delay, frequency response, etc.
In the end you will find that some qualities go beyond proper audio language.
Here's the thing, any amplifier that doesn't blow up after a few minutes of power on and if it makes sound, is a wonderful thing. Most of this is preference and entertainment. Learn to listen and be honest. When something doesn't sound right, don't ignore it. Use your gut feeling, find the problem and fix it. You can use measurement gear, but if you don't have any, just listening carefully can go a long way.
Find and build a Pass amp that powers your speakers well and then compare it to what's out there. You'll see differences soon enough.
Just my 2 cents.
Vince
Yes, I think the important thing is to build stuff. It's still fun, even if it's
bad, and bad amps at least give you a basis for comparison.
bad, and bad amps at least give you a basis for comparison.
Bad is the goal. Not subtly bad. Enough bad to be easily audible, but not dangerous. For educational purposes.
With variable badness controls.
Crap = literally “poop”, bad, low quality. Craplifier = bad amplifier
I think that's a great idea. I've always wondered what is the sound of 2nd order or 3rd order harmonic distortion or even inter-modulation distortion. There's always the guys who talk about training your ears to hear this-or-that. How do you train without knowing what you're listening for?
I've fantasized for some time about getting Self's book on amps, then design an amp with all the things he says adds one type of distortion. Build the "blameful" amplifier!
I've fantasized for some time about getting Self's book on amps, then design an amp with all the things he says adds one type of distortion. Build the "blameful" amplifier!
This is an excellent idea. How else are you gonna' lean? Goodness knows I've built my share of dogs - and I learned from all of them.
Call me nuts, but for some strange reason this thread reminded me of the song, Cheepnis. You could name the amp "Frunobulax". 😀
"Cheapness, in the case of a monster movie, has nothing to do with the budget of the film, although it helps..." -Frank Zappa
Call me nuts, but for some strange reason this thread reminded me of the song, Cheepnis. You could name the amp "Frunobulax". 😀
"Cheapness, in the case of a monster movie, has nothing to do with the budget of the film, although it helps..." -Frank Zappa
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Since there seems to be desire for such a project, it would be really neat to see an open source design and PCB GB.
I agree with the “Blameful Amplifier” with “Adjustable Blame” along the lines of Self’s approach. Where he has the “Niceness control” we would have “Not niceness controls”.
It would be nice to have the amplifier function in a standard manner if each control were defeated, so one could single out certain areas of interest.
So, I'm not advocating a bad design necessarily. I'm advocating a good design that can be adjusted for badness in a multitude of ways, preferably isolating variables as much as one could.
To the same end, I think it would be sensible at least initially to have the power supply be blameless to minimize variables... but perhaps have the ability to starve the amp of the supply voltage / current.
What would be the adjustable controls one might want to see in such a design? If we can get some consensus I could begin a poll...
How much “bad power” would you want at your disposal?
What kind of safety features could we employ?
I agree with the “Blameful Amplifier” with “Adjustable Blame” along the lines of Self’s approach. Where he has the “Niceness control” we would have “Not niceness controls”.
It would be nice to have the amplifier function in a standard manner if each control were defeated, so one could single out certain areas of interest.
So, I'm not advocating a bad design necessarily. I'm advocating a good design that can be adjusted for badness in a multitude of ways, preferably isolating variables as much as one could.
To the same end, I think it would be sensible at least initially to have the power supply be blameless to minimize variables... but perhaps have the ability to starve the amp of the supply voltage / current.
What would be the adjustable controls one might want to see in such a design? If we can get some consensus I could begin a poll...
How much “bad power” would you want at your disposal?
What kind of safety features could we employ?
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How about an adjustable damping factor? I think I've seen it done before. Nothing like being able to adjust your bass from "jackhammer" to "extra-flabby".
Actually, you could even dispense with the "jackhammer" altogether (we can't set our sights too high now, can we?)...
Actually, you could even dispense with the "jackhammer" altogether (we can't set our sights too high now, can we?)...
Want Bad?
Find the schematics for a late 60's early 70's Dynaco St120 Amp.
Fairly simple contraption to recreate. Looks presentable and it's nice 'n heavy etc.
Stereopile Gushed over it... with superlatives 😉
In truth it was one of the worst performing / sounding amps ever sold.
Find the schematics for a late 60's early 70's Dynaco St120 Amp.
Fairly simple contraption to recreate. Looks presentable and it's nice 'n heavy etc.
Stereopile Gushed over it... with superlatives 😉
In truth it was one of the worst performing / sounding amps ever sold.
You are missing the point Bare.
Not "just bad" or "across the board bad" or "singularly bad", but "precisely bad" and "adjustably bad", for purposes of education on, understanding of and listening for the attributes of amplifiers which diminish high quality playback.
Not "just bad" or "across the board bad" or "singularly bad", but "precisely bad" and "adjustably bad", for purposes of education on, understanding of and listening for the attributes of amplifiers which diminish high quality playback.
I have an idea.
Get yourself an adjustable high current power supply and start with a single FET. You may coin this endeavor... "the sound of one FET clapping".
Then decide that it can be improved. You will start with a constant current source for this FET, and post your results.
Afterward, you'll explode different schema, current sources, and loads.
And you'll post these results. We might chime in, or build it ourselves.
Upon conclusion of these events, we will jokingly refer to you as "papa".
Get yourself an adjustable high current power supply and start with a single FET. You may coin this endeavor... "the sound of one FET clapping".
Then decide that it can be improved. You will start with a constant current source for this FET, and post your results.
Afterward, you'll explode different schema, current sources, and loads.
And you'll post these results. We might chime in, or build it ourselves.
Upon conclusion of these events, we will jokingly refer to you as "papa".
It would be a straightforward exercise to design a bad amplifier which was mechanically and electrically compatible with the FirstWatt diyAudio M2x amplifier. Same size PCB, same mechanical mounting holes, same position of the output transistors, same transistor mounting (which itself follows the diyAudio Universal Mounting spec), same power supply voltages, etc.
25 watts/channel, class AB (D.Self calls this "class B"), ferociously high amounts of THD+N, low parts cost, all parts readily available at Mouser/DigiKey/eBay/AliExpress/JunkRecyclers.
Just unbolt the Nelson Pass designed, main amplifier boards from your First Watt diyAudio M2x chassis, and bolt in the ScheissenMaster25+25 amplifier boards instead. Everything else remains the same. Attach the connectors and begin listening, 20 minutes from start to finish.
But you can't listen to your M2x when the ScheissenMaster25+25 is assembled, and that's a bad thing.
25 watts/channel, class AB (D.Self calls this "class B"), ferociously high amounts of THD+N, low parts cost, all parts readily available at Mouser/DigiKey/eBay/AliExpress/JunkRecyclers.
Just unbolt the Nelson Pass designed, main amplifier boards from your First Watt diyAudio M2x chassis, and bolt in the ScheissenMaster25+25 amplifier boards instead. Everything else remains the same. Attach the connectors and begin listening, 20 minutes from start to finish.
But you can't listen to your M2x when the ScheissenMaster25+25 is assembled, and that's a bad thing.
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