Hello,
I will make this intro brief because I suspect I'll miss 99 things and have to update it later anyway 😀
Objective
I want to build some unique loudspeakers - something special to keep. Looks are extremely important, I stand to be murdered by the wife if these things look anything ugly, and given the size I want them to be, which I haven't exactly specified in the wife-approval request, I know they're going to have to be really nice looking.
I will build 2 front speakers. I may also build 2 smaller speakers for the rear, which may be the test-build speakers to begin with.
What I look for
I like big bass for movies, and I like soaring, lofty highs with spacious soundstage with good layer separation and a mildly warm presentation overall for pretty much everything. I do have a high quality headphone system that has treated me nicely for many years, but I have never owned a loudspeaker that could compare with the experience of horns. I have often dreamed of Watt Puppy, BeoLab 5 and similar as icons... but never pulled the trigger for one reason or another.
What and where is it to be used?
In my living room. The room dimensions are 23' high, by about 70' wide by about 50' deep, and boomy.
Speakers that I've heard and really liked
Sadurni Acoustics & Cesaro Beethoven II. Wow. They're frightening, the both of them, and I love the sound.
I've only been to a few shows, so I haven't heard much, but I remembered these two. There was a third, which was also a horn, but I don't know which one it was.
Design Inspiration
Sadurni Acoustics
Cesaro Beethoven II
B&W Nautilus
Aesthesis
Living Vox
Drivers
No preference, but I do think an AMT tweeter is better than even a horn tweeter. I've heard the flagship Piega systems and they're very light and clear.
How many drivers
1 Bass, 1 Mid, 1 Tweeter per speaker.
Perhaps more if justifiable, I don't mind, I'm exploring.
Can I build a speaker as good as the Cesaro, Living Vox, or Nautilus?
I'm willing to try, and get as close as I can, and that will be good enough for me in the end. I can't personally justify paying the price for their speakers, not to detract from those who can. Also, I don't wish to copy their designs, I would like to make something my own, but given the scale of this build and the time it will take, I think I am best to draw as much information I can from their sure steps.
I have the metal and wood work capability and resources to tackle this project at the build level, but I lack, in every sense, the engineering knowledge of speakers; drivers, cross overs, porting, cabinet design, and so forth to do this right.
So, this is the start of the journey, I will likely not touch a piece of wood for some months, but I will begin the process of learning, researching, studying and experimenting.
I've joined here because I learnt long ago that forums are the best resource for support when trying something new or challenging.
Some early questions
I know I haven't really given anything specific for people to critique at this point.... so I will ask some questions, and if you can help with anything at this stage, feel welcome, or just say hi 🙂
1. Are there any existing publicly available designs for something like Cesaro or Nautilus? Or anything even stranger/stand-out?
2. Am I considering the right approach with Fostex/Lowther drivers in a 3-way speaker, or should I be looking to another brand adopting a 4 or 5-way design, and use drivers better tuned at specific frequencies?
I will make this intro brief because I suspect I'll miss 99 things and have to update it later anyway 😀
Objective
I want to build some unique loudspeakers - something special to keep. Looks are extremely important, I stand to be murdered by the wife if these things look anything ugly, and given the size I want them to be, which I haven't exactly specified in the wife-approval request, I know they're going to have to be really nice looking.
I will build 2 front speakers. I may also build 2 smaller speakers for the rear, which may be the test-build speakers to begin with.
What I look for
I like big bass for movies, and I like soaring, lofty highs with spacious soundstage with good layer separation and a mildly warm presentation overall for pretty much everything. I do have a high quality headphone system that has treated me nicely for many years, but I have never owned a loudspeaker that could compare with the experience of horns. I have often dreamed of Watt Puppy, BeoLab 5 and similar as icons... but never pulled the trigger for one reason or another.
What and where is it to be used?
In my living room. The room dimensions are 23' high, by about 70' wide by about 50' deep, and boomy.
Speakers that I've heard and really liked
Sadurni Acoustics & Cesaro Beethoven II. Wow. They're frightening, the both of them, and I love the sound.
I've only been to a few shows, so I haven't heard much, but I remembered these two. There was a third, which was also a horn, but I don't know which one it was.
Design Inspiration
Sadurni Acoustics
Cesaro Beethoven II
B&W Nautilus
Aesthesis
Living Vox
Drivers
No preference, but I do think an AMT tweeter is better than even a horn tweeter. I've heard the flagship Piega systems and they're very light and clear.
How many drivers
1 Bass, 1 Mid, 1 Tweeter per speaker.
Perhaps more if justifiable, I don't mind, I'm exploring.
Can I build a speaker as good as the Cesaro, Living Vox, or Nautilus?
I'm willing to try, and get as close as I can, and that will be good enough for me in the end. I can't personally justify paying the price for their speakers, not to detract from those who can. Also, I don't wish to copy their designs, I would like to make something my own, but given the scale of this build and the time it will take, I think I am best to draw as much information I can from their sure steps.
I have the metal and wood work capability and resources to tackle this project at the build level, but I lack, in every sense, the engineering knowledge of speakers; drivers, cross overs, porting, cabinet design, and so forth to do this right.
So, this is the start of the journey, I will likely not touch a piece of wood for some months, but I will begin the process of learning, researching, studying and experimenting.
I've joined here because I learnt long ago that forums are the best resource for support when trying something new or challenging.
Some early questions
I know I haven't really given anything specific for people to critique at this point.... so I will ask some questions, and if you can help with anything at this stage, feel welcome, or just say hi 🙂
1. Are there any existing publicly available designs for something like Cesaro or Nautilus? Or anything even stranger/stand-out?
2. Am I considering the right approach with Fostex/Lowther drivers in a 3-way speaker, or should I be looking to another brand adopting a 4 or 5-way design, and use drivers better tuned at specific frequencies?
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I must be missing something. You've never built a loudspeaker before, but you want to build one as good as a designer with decades of experience and likely an engineering degree? And you want to use a handful of random drivers that were not specifically chosen for their role? Loudspeaker design is not simple. Start with a small two way, develop your skills, learn and move up from there.
Speakerbuilding is a very rewarding hobby for many who take part. Many of us build speakers that are better, for us, than any commercially designed speaker because they fit our tastes and environment perfectly. Build half a dozen pair learning from each one and you will be there too.
Speakerbuilding is a very rewarding hobby for many who take part. Many of us build speakers that are better, for us, than any commercially designed speaker because they fit our tastes and environment perfectly. Build half a dozen pair learning from each one and you will be there too.
That's not the question I would have asked, you're not a small child.. However the fact that you have already decided in your mind what size this will be tells me this is going to take a while.
What is it about a horn that attracts you? (Need to decide which and why)
Hi blaze182,
Sounds like an ambitious project!
One of things that I've learned across numerous hobbies and interests, is that when you start out in anything - you don't know what you don't know. This lack of insight into the areas of knowledge deficit makes it difficult to accurately frame or conceptualize the problem you are trying to address, and makes developing a suitable solution even more difficult.
I've been reflecting on my own speaker building journey of late, and while having a few successful builds completed, I realize that it would be impossible for me to build my ultimate speaker system at this point. Not for lack of practical skills, but for lack of knowledge of how all the variables interact to create what I would consider ideal. I think I've realized (short of simply building a proven design), there is a certain number of errors/mistakes/failures that have to make to develop any level of expertise in an area - either in the design or fabrication process. Accordingly I would tend to agree with those suggesting to start with something less ambitious, and consider it an investment in learning.
That aside, I'll be curious to follow along and see how you get on.
Matt
Sounds like an ambitious project!
One of things that I've learned across numerous hobbies and interests, is that when you start out in anything - you don't know what you don't know. This lack of insight into the areas of knowledge deficit makes it difficult to accurately frame or conceptualize the problem you are trying to address, and makes developing a suitable solution even more difficult.
I've been reflecting on my own speaker building journey of late, and while having a few successful builds completed, I realize that it would be impossible for me to build my ultimate speaker system at this point. Not for lack of practical skills, but for lack of knowledge of how all the variables interact to create what I would consider ideal. I think I've realized (short of simply building a proven design), there is a certain number of errors/mistakes/failures that have to make to develop any level of expertise in an area - either in the design or fabrication process. Accordingly I would tend to agree with those suggesting to start with something less ambitious, and consider it an investment in learning.
That aside, I'll be curious to follow along and see how you get on.
Matt
I really don't know what to say, sort of flabbergasted, but I think William summed it up perfectly.
I'll watch with interest.
Also, looking at the Cessaro, it's a 5 way, with 4 of those being excellent, and very, very expensive TAD drivers. Assuming you could find as good performance in modern drivers, and I'd say you could, I could see $US10-15k in driver cost alone. Then add the horns and the mechanical framework and the DSP and... even if you were experienced, that would be one hell of a project.
Please don't read the comments as disparaging or discouraging, but I think all here would prefer you to start small, build something that works, gain encouragement from that, then expand your knowledge and build something bigger. I built a large 5 way FLH system 20y ago with little experience in horn design and my failures cost me a lot in $ and in time but I learned stuff that books generally won't be able to teach you. FWIW, my first design was a huge 4 box line array, and whilst I thought it sounded good even for the time, it probably wasn't. But it was fun, and as it used cheap drivers, didn't actually cost all that much.
I'll watch with interest.
Also, looking at the Cessaro, it's a 5 way, with 4 of those being excellent, and very, very expensive TAD drivers. Assuming you could find as good performance in modern drivers, and I'd say you could, I could see $US10-15k in driver cost alone. Then add the horns and the mechanical framework and the DSP and... even if you were experienced, that would be one hell of a project.
Please don't read the comments as disparaging or discouraging, but I think all here would prefer you to start small, build something that works, gain encouragement from that, then expand your knowledge and build something bigger. I built a large 5 way FLH system 20y ago with little experience in horn design and my failures cost me a lot in $ and in time but I learned stuff that books generally won't be able to teach you. FWIW, my first design was a huge 4 box line array, and whilst I thought it sounded good even for the time, it probably wasn't. But it was fun, and as it used cheap drivers, didn't actually cost all that much.
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Most likely you will fail. Designing a horn speaker is not that easy. Driver, horn, crossover, bandwith, all have to be considered.
Better look on 2nd hand market and buy one. But you need big money
Better look on 2nd hand market and buy one. But you need big money
Or copy an existing design, but then to the letter. There are some good looking speaker designs that are open or cheap to get the plans of. Designing a horn yourself succesfully takes a lot of knowledge and years of experience.
The only solution is to find a good kit. 1/You may choose the look, which is important to you 2/Control your budget and have good technical solutions 3/ and most important learn.
Take some time reading the already existing articles here, well known diy audio sites. You may find on diyaudio com also titles of basic books about acoustics.
Good luck
Take some time reading the already existing articles here, well known diy audio sites. You may find on diyaudio com also titles of basic books about acoustics.
Good luck
Where's a good kit to the type of designs the OP listed? I've never seen one, but it would be great for him if there were.
Wow, that is a BIG ro0m.. Good luck ... fully loaded horns are like wild animals that may never be tamed..
no these are meme drivers. you should buy and read this book: Home
(currently sold out 🙁 )
here is some other info in the meantime:
https://www.grc.com/acoustics/an-introduction-to-horn-theory.pdf
http://www.xlrtechs.com/dbkeele.com/PDF/Keele (1975-05 AES Preprint) - Whats So Sacred Exp Horns.pdf
http://www.xlrtechs.com/dbkeele.com...Preprint) - LF Horn Design Using TS Paras.pdf
These speakers will get you to divorce court forthwith !!! Good luck.
Meet Joe, and his amazing DIY horn speakers - YouTube
Joe
Meet Joe, and his amazing DIY horn speakers - YouTube
Joe
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Joined 2009
Paid Member
Holy Cow ! - your living room is H UUUU GE
I'm planning to build a copy of the Tune Audio ANIMA horn speaker. I like it's appearance and agree that this is an important factor as well as being a personal choice. I have bought drivers and have reverse engineered a good deal of the design. I started construction but the quality of wood available during the Pandemic is not good and I deviated from the OEM design so I am going to scrap what I have built and start over. Just an fyi.
I'm planning to build a copy of the Tune Audio ANIMA horn speaker. I like it's appearance and agree that this is an important factor as well as being a personal choice. I have bought drivers and have reverse engineered a good deal of the design. I started construction but the quality of wood available during the Pandemic is not good and I deviated from the OEM design so I am going to scrap what I have built and start over. Just an fyi.
Before I dive in, a quick apology. I recently took my second COVID vaccine and was floored by it for a couple of days. I was writing my OP at 4am and was a little more free flowing than I normally am.
I agree, my OP is a convoluted; I will try to tidy the OP up after this response.
I acknowledge that the engineering is extremely complex; decades of corporate IP, R&D, enthusiasts, DIYers, and still so much variability in design and performance. I respect this complexity such that I deliberately take it lightly, as it is beyond my ability, and the time I have available to learn.
Regarding the build quality, the construction I am capable of. Something like Nautilus, I can build, I think a reasonable amount of people could, if they set their time and had the right hardware.
I am not capable of engineering the design for sonic properties, nor selecting the speaker drivers nor crossovers.
How do I plan to resolve this? I have reached out to a number of engineers to see if I can find someone to actively support in the design of this system. If the expert says the task is too large, then I will reconsider the build.
Fair point, it is now removed.
As to why I like the horns, over the years, I often hear people use the phrase 'you're right there in the performance'. Personally, I've never felt more in the performance than listening to those horns.
I do like the Piega Master Series LS 2 & 3.
A very fair assessment, I fully agree - I cannot do this on my own at my current skill level.
I have contacted several sound engineers and another DIYer who has successfully built their own horn system. I will see if it is possible to outsource the engineering to a person more capable.
In this way, I can construct the physical system, they can design, select components and then we integrate the pieces later.
Do you have a link to your build? I will check your profile after I post this and search for it.
Thank you kindly for your thoughts and information... and, I get excited about a new project, and may have gone overboard in the OP.
I think your concerns and others are well justified and valid, I share the concerns myself, too.
I hope not, but everything is possible.
Agree, I would love to follow an existing spec if there are any available?
Yes, thank you. I will read a lot for the rest of this year. I have reached out to some sound engineers, and may instead look to have someone more experienced guide the build.
I agree, my OP is a convoluted; I will try to tidy the OP up after this response.
I acknowledge that the engineering is extremely complex; decades of corporate IP, R&D, enthusiasts, DIYers, and still so much variability in design and performance. I respect this complexity such that I deliberately take it lightly, as it is beyond my ability, and the time I have available to learn.
Regarding the build quality, the construction I am capable of. Something like Nautilus, I can build, I think a reasonable amount of people could, if they set their time and had the right hardware.
I am not capable of engineering the design for sonic properties, nor selecting the speaker drivers nor crossovers.
How do I plan to resolve this? I have reached out to a number of engineers to see if I can find someone to actively support in the design of this system. If the expert says the task is too large, then I will reconsider the build.
Fair point, it is now removed.
As to why I like the horns, over the years, I often hear people use the phrase 'you're right there in the performance'. Personally, I've never felt more in the performance than listening to those horns.
I do like the Piega Master Series LS 2 & 3.
A very fair assessment, I fully agree - I cannot do this on my own at my current skill level.
I have contacted several sound engineers and another DIYer who has successfully built their own horn system. I will see if it is possible to outsource the engineering to a person more capable.
In this way, I can construct the physical system, they can design, select components and then we integrate the pieces later.
Do you have a link to your build? I will check your profile after I post this and search for it.
Thank you kindly for your thoughts and information... and, I get excited about a new project, and may have gone overboard in the OP.
I think your concerns and others are well justified and valid, I share the concerns myself, too.
I hope not, but everything is possible.
Agree, I would love to follow an existing spec if there are any available?
Yes, thank you. I will read a lot for the rest of this year. I have reached out to some sound engineers, and may instead look to have someone more experienced guide the build.
That's close in concept to the system I had before '02 when I moved and had to disassemble it. I'm moving back to the same house in the NY and have been thinking about rebuilding it, but with the Unity. This time, for simplicity's sake, I might build a different midbass horn.
Initially it was all passive punning of an 813T PP class A amp.
This is closer in appearance in some ways. My midbass was nearly 2m in axial length and J shaped with a JBL2205 at about eye height facing down into the horn mouth.
I had 4 LABsubs for bass.
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One thing I learned from my recent and first attempt at a large horn speaker is that it's too big to handle when built as a monolithic unit. After recently acquiring a pair of Klipschorn clones I can also say that completed horn speakers can be too darn heavy to be convenient too. So my plan is to clone the Anima by constructing separate sections of horn that are considerably easier to handle, both during construction (table saw, clamps, surface finishing etc.) and in set-up or future moves. These separate sections will stack on top of each other but connect safely and effectively to maintain full performance.
^^ Agreed Bigun. I had some 150Hz round Trax horns turned up, and the people who made them loaded them into the trailer with a block and tackle, it took 3 of us to hold them and another to put in the mounting bolts. They were a bit larger than the Sierra Brooks ones in the video.
Mine weren't on casters though - I won't make that mistake this time.
My large system started out as a set of Khorns. After a while I could hear issues in them, and as I engineered the issues out, there was no Khorn left there.
Mine weren't on casters though - I won't make that mistake this time.
My large system started out as a set of Khorns. After a while I could hear issues in them, and as I engineered the issues out, there was no Khorn left there.
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Joined 2009
Paid Member
my Khorns have a bit of family history, or I would not have taken them on. I expect they will find a home in my basement HT system. My Anima copy is for my living room and actually it will be a single mono speaker because that is how I do my casual listening. No block and tackle for me - wow!
I bought my pair on a whim when they were listed on epay late one night and I happened to be online to see them. I'd never seen another pair and had the cash, so I jumped on them, no matter the fact they were about 600mi away and I only had my Yamaha bike. There was a small removalist company nearby and they brought them back on a backload trip.
I loved them. They were nothing like anything I'd had before and the room had perfect corners and was a flat under a house cut into a steep hill so a solid concrete bunker.
One of the best mods is to go active DSP and get the three sections time aligned and crossed steeply.
The 150Hz Traxes were about 60mm thick near the mouth and about 100 at the throat, solid laminated mdf so not exactly svelte.
Now I just wish I could find the Centauri audio midbass horns he sent me the plans for years back as they look perfect. I know they're on the server, I've just stored them with a stupid name and it's hard to find in a few TB. Tried emailing again recently and didn't get a reply so I might just have to bite the bullet and design my own from scratch or build the Crowes. My old design were mongrels to build.