Anyone notice a difference is sound when placing an amp closer or further to a sub as long as wire size is sufficient, lets say 12 gauge? The reason I ask is that amp dampening is hugely effected by the distance from sub to amp, regardless of wire size (almost), but I have also read that amp dampening is really a non factor. The amp is an Orion GX280 and the dampening factor is 2000+
If you use thick enough sub wire, you won't have to worry about the distance. Using too thin of a wire will affect the amp's ability to control the woofer
12gauge resistivity = 1.6mohms/ft.
if your front seat to trunk is 20ft (tortuous path) then you have 64milliohms of cable resistance (40 * 0.0016)
Orion doesn't have a GX280 on their website so guess the output impedance at say 50milliohms.
You can see that the damping factor is defined pretty much equally by the amplifier Zout and the cable impedance.
Assume speaker is 4 ohms (car speaker?) then DF = 35. (Zspeaker/Zsource)
How did you get 2000?
Personally, unless you have a crossover between the amp and speaker I don't think you need to worry about damping factor.
if your front seat to trunk is 20ft (tortuous path) then you have 64milliohms of cable resistance (40 * 0.0016)
Orion doesn't have a GX280 on their website so guess the output impedance at say 50milliohms.
You can see that the damping factor is defined pretty much equally by the amplifier Zout and the cable impedance.
Assume speaker is 4 ohms (car speaker?) then DF = 35. (Zspeaker/Zsource)
How did you get 2000?
Personally, unless you have a crossover between the amp and speaker I don't think you need to worry about damping factor.
That's what Orion advertised for the GX amps. Model # 280GX.
Current hungry amps, but would absolutely deliver the output if you could feed them what they wanted.
Sounds like my kind of amp😀
DF of 2K means a source impedance of less than 2milliohms. You have to worry about your power source at that point.
I can't find the Orion 280GX on the Orion site. Is it discontinued? Can you post a link? I wonder if the 2K damping factor is realistic/achievable.
DF of 2K means a source impedance of less than 2milliohms. You have to worry about your power source at that point.
I can't find the Orion 280GX on the Orion site. Is it discontinued? Can you post a link? I wonder if the 2K damping factor is realistic/achievable.
I believe they stopped making the amp in the early 90's.
The amp wll be electronically crossed. Will there be a sonic difference between mounting between the amp 8 feet or 1 foot from the sub using 12 gauge wire?
The amp wll be electronically crossed. Will there be a sonic difference between mounting between the amp 8 feet or 1 foot from the sub using 12 gauge wire?
I would say that the length of cable between amp and speakers and amp and battery/PSU are equally important in this case.
If the connection from the amp to the battery is 15feet of 14 gauge, then no, 8' will sound the same as 1' of 12gauge to the speakers. If the amp to battery is 1foot of 10gauge then yes, you may hear a difference on some, especially challenging, musical passages at higher volume levels.
Sounds like your amplifier is VERY low output impedance. That makes ALL the wiring important in the installation. The wiring needs to be <<2milliohms!
Check the esr of your filter caps!
If the connection from the amp to the battery is 15feet of 14 gauge, then no, 8' will sound the same as 1' of 12gauge to the speakers. If the amp to battery is 1foot of 10gauge then yes, you may hear a difference on some, especially challenging, musical passages at higher volume levels.
Sounds like your amplifier is VERY low output impedance. That makes ALL the wiring important in the installation. The wiring needs to be <<2milliohms!
Check the esr of your filter caps!
actually, I don't think it's such a bad idea to have your source impedance defined by a resistor (the wires) - better than the frequency dependent feedback loop! IMO source impedance under 50milliohms is adequate for most direct connected speakers.
I will be using 4 gauge from the battery to the amp and 12 gauge to the speaker.
It sounded like you are saying that having the 5-8 ft of 12 gauge to the speaker would be a good thing, is this correct?
It sounded like you are saying that having the 5-8 ft of 12 gauge to the speaker would be a good thing, is this correct?
I have no data, just an opinion. I certainly don't think there's any negative effect.
In the pareto analysis of why your (my) sound system isn't perfect, I think 8ft of 12 gauge wire for speakers is pretty low down the list. The acoustics of the listening space are way more important/problematic.
In the pareto analysis of why your (my) sound system isn't perfect, I think 8ft of 12 gauge wire for speakers is pretty low down the list. The acoustics of the listening space are way more important/problematic.
5-8 ft of 12 gauge should work well at that power level. They do get pretty warm, its good you're running 4 guage for power input.
Remember to include voice coil resistance in the damping factor equation. Practical damping factors are almost always below 2. The rest is marketing hype (or not telling the whole story to who would hardly notice, as usual).
Concerning amplifier placement, reducing 12V power wiring length and loop area is the #1 priority, then comes reducing the length of signal interconnects that have to be placed close to other wirings. Runs of speaker wire inside a car can't be considered in any way "long".
Even 0.1 ohms of speaker cable plus amplifier output impedance with a 2.8 ohm voice coil result in just 0.3dB deviation from ideal response. This is below our perception therhold, particularly for bass.
20*log10(2.8/2.9)~=-0.3dB
Concerning amplifier placement, reducing 12V power wiring length and loop area is the #1 priority, then comes reducing the length of signal interconnects that have to be placed close to other wirings. Runs of speaker wire inside a car can't be considered in any way "long".
Even 0.1 ohms of speaker cable plus amplifier output impedance with a 2.8 ohm voice coil result in just 0.3dB deviation from ideal response. This is below our perception therhold, particularly for bass.
20*log10(2.8/2.9)~=-0.3dB
Hi
You won't know the diffrence in sound between 1000 and 2000 DF, so you can use normal wire as you would for that install and as long as you need it to be
You won't know the diffrence in sound between 1000 and 2000 DF, so you can use normal wire as you would for that install and as long as you need it to be
Eva said:
Good point, but it's not just the voltage divider effect. There is quite a bit of energy stored in the speaker on a musical transient/per cycle basis (especially with large XO components) There's a time domain effect as well.
Is it audible? I haven't yet managed to set up a definitive test but it concerns me. It's all part of the system as a whole.
But the same applies to the speaker voicecoil. And the speaker voicecoil will increase its resistance by much much more than just 0.1 ohm at high power.
For a copper voice coil and not very high temperatures:
t-t0=(r-r0)/(r0*.00393)
t and t0 in ºC
r and r0 in ohms
A copper voice coil that is 2.8 ohms at 25ºC will exhibit 3.9 ohms at 125ºC.
This has a true impact on speaker Thiele/Small parametrs too...
BTW: The most important flaws of audio systems are evident, yet unknown for most people.
t-t0=(r-r0)/(r0*.00393)
t and t0 in ºC
r and r0 in ohms
A copper voice coil that is 2.8 ohms at 25ºC will exhibit 3.9 ohms at 125ºC.
This has a true impact on speaker Thiele/Small parametrs too...
BTW: The most important flaws of audio systems are evident, yet unknown for most people.
another good point
Carlo Zuccatti (Thermal Parameters and Power Ratings in Loudspeakers, JAES Vol 38, No. 1/2, 1990) measured a driver with a thermal resistance to ambient of 5°C/W. Let's assume this is typical.
With an ambient of 25°C you'll be at 125°C with 20W rms, continuous.
If your ambient is 35°C you'll be at 125°C with 18W rms.
So for a car system, voice coil temperature looks like a significant issue. It's going to mess with your crossovers for sure.
Carlo Zuccatti (Thermal Parameters and Power Ratings in Loudspeakers, JAES Vol 38, No. 1/2, 1990) measured a driver with a thermal resistance to ambient of 5°C/W. Let's assume this is typical.
With an ambient of 25°C you'll be at 125°C with 20W rms, continuous.
If your ambient is 35°C you'll be at 125°C with 18W rms.
So for a car system, voice coil temperature looks like a significant issue. It's going to mess with your crossovers for sure.
Sorry, mitchyz250f, we stole your thread
Looks like the wire gauge is insignificant compared to dampening factor loss due to voice coil temperature.
Looks like the wire gauge is insignificant compared to dampening factor loss due to voice coil temperature.
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