depressing.
i think i will apply your philosophy to my design here:
by cutting the number of integrated subs in half.
instead adding extra subs elsewhere in the room for better flexibility in controlling room modes.
hey @tmuikku what do you think is the optimum crossover frequency for subs ? what's better - 80hz or 60hz ?
logically higher XO would allow for better control of room modes by using distributed subs but many people claim lower XO sounds better - but i think they are lying and simply say it because it seems intuitive to them that this should be the case so they say it as if that is what they hear.
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Hi, yeah, don't shoot the messenger 😀
Yes! you definitely should try distributing subs. There is actually another benefit for this, which is envelopment. There is also downsides, some people report they still like frontal subs only because subs all around don't give such an impact. I think I'd prefer smoother sound through out the room instead, but not having that much experience I cannot tell yet. It's better to try yourself, and if you can distribute sources around the room, where ever they are handy, and use tools provided by REW to "align" them to smoothen the response, I think you are going to get better sound than everything in front and then living with the very uneven response.
This depends on many things, you should play around with it. Obviously, if there is some bad modal issue around 80Hz you'd need to crossover that high to be able to address it somehow. On the other hand it might mean the subs are now localized, but this all depends on many things, like if the sub is behind you it likely localizes in front of you (or equivalence) than behind even if the xo was above 100Hz, while exactly side of you it would likely localize there quite easily.
What you want to listen to, is to get smooth frequency response so that no "notes" get missing or "boosted" too much. This will perceptually cleanup the midrange as well in my experience so makes a great improvement overall. Further than this you could experiemnt with the impact I mentioned, whether it's still impactful bass or somewhat mild for some reason. Also, whether the subs draw your attention to themselves or do they blend in so that if you shut your eyes you are completely unaware of them. In addition there is the hustle of hiding the subs, wiring them and so on, so take your time and experiement a little. Remember to have fun so its' not that depressing!🙂
what's that ?
did ChatGPT write this ?
J/K
no need to be so politically correct 😉
Hi, auditory envelopment is simply feeling that sound surrounds you, enveloping sound. In contrast to just sound that is in front of you as it typically is, non enveloping 🙂 Envelopment is one fine features of proper good hifi system and enjoyment, at least in my opinion. It's feature of our own auditory system and not hifi system as such, the hifi system can be adjusted to make the envelopment happen though. It's also something that concert hall designers try to include for most of the seats. If you want to read more about it find David Griesinger papers / presentations about it.
no i just want electronic bass notes to all sound rich and full all the way down to about 27 hz or so ( lowest piano note ).
i want music like this to sound good:
And did you simply try another listening position to see if the problem persists ?
T
Simple advice is just get as many and as big bass speakers as you can so that there is enough capacity available, low bass is not a joke to reproduce. If you want 27Hz you need four times as much speakers (volume displacement) that it makes to reproduce that same SPL at 50Hz. Multiple sources distributed around the room should help with modes, use DSP to make good balance for the system.
In general bass sounds weak if it's relative level to highs is not right, and this could be due to many reasons like the room modes or just the system balance, like bad high frequency sound of tweeter making it stick out too bad, so it's not necessarily a bass speaker issue directly but could be an issue somewhere else in the system, or combination of many problems.
Good system balance is hard to achieve if there is some resonance(s) in the system masking things around, so it's a blanket that covers it all to get very good bass. Detail that go into each of these could be anything so, this is just the high level idea what you need to be able to approximate somehow. Could be issue higher up, like massive suck out around 100-400Hz due to first early reflections delays piling up there, look for "SBIR". Could be 10 "issues" all making it together, there is seldom one single big issue so also not a silver bullet fix to make all problems go away, but all issues need to be considered starting from the worst ones and weeding them out as much as needed. Which makes philosophy that one should strive for "problem free system", what ever it is to you. I hope you get it sorted!🙂
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@Havoc : we do not have the same room, mine is considerably smaller...
But we both listen to EM and have large speakers - at least relatively to the size of our listening rooms. Like you, I rather listen to moderate loudness levels, but sometimes louder too (when I am alone or with Friends for tests).
You can see a Ripole Subwoofer placed in-between the speakers, on the 1st picture. This is the solution that I opted for, in order to reproduce Infra-bass (below 40-50Hz) satisfactorily. Despite its compact size (2x12", 400x400x440mm, with sub amp/xover module integrated), the Ripole offers an unobtrusive, floating deep bass extension which is particularly suitable with Ambient/Space EM, where Bass-Reflex only provide a boomy-directionall sound (I made the test with several models) :
I can tell you that the Ripole principle does Miracles with Magnepan speakers (I have a pair of little SMGb, which naturally cuts under 50hz), gently filling the room with that deep floating bass ambience...
T
But we both listen to EM and have large speakers - at least relatively to the size of our listening rooms. Like you, I rather listen to moderate loudness levels, but sometimes louder too (when I am alone or with Friends for tests).
You can see a Ripole Subwoofer placed in-between the speakers, on the 1st picture. This is the solution that I opted for, in order to reproduce Infra-bass (below 40-50Hz) satisfactorily. Despite its compact size (2x12", 400x400x440mm, with sub amp/xover module integrated), the Ripole offers an unobtrusive, floating deep bass extension which is particularly suitable with Ambient/Space EM, where Bass-Reflex only provide a boomy-directionall sound (I made the test with several models) :
I can tell you that the Ripole principle does Miracles with Magnepan speakers (I have a pair of little SMGb, which naturally cuts under 50hz), gently filling the room with that deep floating bass ambience...
T
Amps are fine from what I saw on the scope.
Moving the speakers to another room isn't an option, bedroom is almost full with bed and wardrobe, kitchen is too small, hallway has doors every wall. Bathroom really isn't an option 🙂
Thanks for all the feedback, much appreciated. So if I see this then the next steps are:
- get some kind of measuring working.
- adjust levels based on this
- check out the room, is sound consistent all over the place?
- try to widen the baffle temporary to check if that makes a difference. I do have some board offcuts around.
- place a bas-mid if there is a hole (this will need some woodwork, might take time)
- try with other mid/high than those horns. I have a couple of dome mid/high around from a previous project. (would require some woodwork as well)
@Havoc I think, you are providing too much info in one post - there is info about amps, speakers, room, EQ, personal liking of sound, etc.
There is "salami principle" in solving problems with many components, so you just do that step-by-step: first the easiest, like looking for the things which you can substitute, like audio gear, cables, connectors, exchange speakers L with R, gain settings and so on. Then the harder ones and so on.
Right now it is a guesswork and if you dive into it with all those components all at once... You can get mental condition.
From what you wrote in first post, I would try to play mid-woofers fullrange without Bahringer DSP/EQ and see if the sound is kinda better, but as you already have Fostex, which you like, and played a lot, so then the next suspect could be smth in line from source to speaker. Because moving the speakers in normal living room impacts a lot, but if you are just walking around - you will get into +10/-10dB zones in any case is speaker in a good place or bad.
There is "salami principle" in solving problems with many components, so you just do that step-by-step: first the easiest, like looking for the things which you can substitute, like audio gear, cables, connectors, exchange speakers L with R, gain settings and so on. Then the harder ones and so on.
Right now it is a guesswork and if you dive into it with all those components all at once... You can get mental condition.
From what you wrote in first post, I would try to play mid-woofers fullrange without Bahringer DSP/EQ and see if the sound is kinda better, but as you already have Fostex, which you like, and played a lot, so then the next suspect could be smth in line from source to speaker. Because moving the speakers in normal living room impacts a lot, but if you are just walking around - you will get into +10/-10dB zones in any case is speaker in a good place or bad.
As a member of this forum I already have a mental condition 😛
Coupling directly the woofers might be an idea. But you misunderstood about the Fostex, I did like them at all. I trew the boxes away and the drivers just sit in their box under the desk.
Here you are, before I put on a few coats of varnish. (it is already somewhere on the forum but I don't know where I put it):
Hi, you said that you crossed 4th order like the originals, but the original is 2nd order for all the speakers.
Moreover, that Smith horn is brutal. You can invert the position of the tweeter ( in the middle ).
About delays, I would leave initially at zero everything, and move the smith horn back and forth.
Then I would study WHY at Visaton Forschungszentrum the project came with two 12" woofers and not 8".
Moreover, that Smith horn is brutal. You can invert the position of the tweeter ( in the middle ).
Why? Isn't the DCX 2496 more flexible than a passive one?!
About delays, I would leave initially at zero everything, and move the smith horn back and forth.
Then I would study WHY at Visaton Forschungszentrum the project came with two 12" woofers and not 8".
you mentioned that you have separate amplifiers with volume controls for each of the drivers. You probably did this already, but , play a very low frequency 1-2 hertz at low power and check to see if all of the bass drivers move in the same direction at the same time. ( in phase). Try turning down the volume on 1 of the bass drivers in each cabinet The other driver will act as a passive resonator. Did you measure the cabinet tuning and is the tuning as predicted by the various programs you used? Play one channel at a time, does playing one channel at a time have more bass? What is the high pass frequency and slope set to in the DSP? Are each of the bass amplifiers flat to at least 10 Hertz?
@Havoc,
My random thoughts:
-that Visaton thing on top of speaker is absurdly expensive 100dB sensitivity alu-ti monster, right?
-below it is a compression driver, right?
-so 3-way, with ridiculously high sensitivity and ridiculously priced super-tweeter, mated to ridiculously expensive PA/Pro ti dome compression driver in a ridiculously expensive horn, mated to ridiculously cheap stamped steel alu membrane woofers?
-EQ/DSP manufacturer is made by company named Behringer?
-you have no measurement microphone and done EQ by ear?
-crossover also by ear and some manufacturer straight forward recomendations?
-what are crossover slopes? All the other DSP settings? Can you screenshot them for us?
-you are not sure if you trust your amps?
-you did not do any basic SPL leveling, based on manufacturer data?
-you did not followed any already trusted project with similar drivers and publicly known crossover settings?
-you suspect, that bassbox is wrong tuning and probably not enough damped?
-room is a mess, full with random stuff?
-listening position is?...
-no granular description why the result is letdown? Maybe you just like music to be played loud? Maybe the overall low SPL level is just not satisfying for you?
-EDIT: no bass-reflex tube, right?...
So many questions, and so little answers...
I can agree just on one: speakers are not too small for room, which is ~30.5sqm. Those are party SPL level speakers.
My random thoughts:
-that Visaton thing on top of speaker is absurdly expensive 100dB sensitivity alu-ti monster, right?
-below it is a compression driver, right?
-so 3-way, with ridiculously high sensitivity and ridiculously priced super-tweeter, mated to ridiculously expensive PA/Pro ti dome compression driver in a ridiculously expensive horn, mated to ridiculously cheap stamped steel alu membrane woofers?
-EQ/DSP manufacturer is made by company named Behringer?
-you have no measurement microphone and done EQ by ear?
-crossover also by ear and some manufacturer straight forward recomendations?
-what are crossover slopes? All the other DSP settings? Can you screenshot them for us?
-you are not sure if you trust your amps?
-you did not do any basic SPL leveling, based on manufacturer data?
-you did not followed any already trusted project with similar drivers and publicly known crossover settings?
-you suspect, that bassbox is wrong tuning and probably not enough damped?
-room is a mess, full with random stuff?
-listening position is?...
-no granular description why the result is letdown? Maybe you just like music to be played loud? Maybe the overall low SPL level is just not satisfying for you?
-EDIT: no bass-reflex tube, right?...
So many questions, and so little answers...
I can agree just on one: speakers are not too small for room, which is ~30.5sqm. Those are party SPL level speakers.
My initial thought, try to connect your speaker to another amplifier of which you are certain it produces good bass. It musn't be that hard I'm sure, even though they are active. Adding a bass reflex tube can also increase strongly bass and midtones, and makes the sound warmer. That is a personal thing.
I have a feeling there is some miscommunication here. Most of the answers to your questions are already given, some in the first post. But hey, let's do this again ok?
- can be, I don't remember what I paid it all those years ago.
- yes
- I don't see what the price has to do with it. The woofers are not alu membraned in any case.
- yes as written in the first post
- I do have a microphone. Only issue is that for a reason I don't understand my pc is refusing to run the software. And that won't be solved fast.
- crossover is at the frequencies from the design of the original box. These are sensible regarding the used mid/high
- slopes are 4-th order, other dsp settings are level adjustments of mid (-9db) and high (-6db) and correction of distance of woofer and high regarding to mid. Can't make a screenshot as this is a device using knobs to set the parameters, not a pc.
- I do trust my amps, you keep coming back to this but I'm sure about the amps. Tested them.
- yes, level correction based on calculation of the BR bass box and sensitivity of the mid/high
- yes, it is a known published design (already more than 30 years an acitve design). Only difference are the used woofers. And the BR box for them has been calculated with the parameters of the used woofers.
- I have doubts about it. But I do not know for sure how to check it. Maybe too much or maybe too little damping. Maybe tuning is wrong. How do I check?
- yes, I live in that room, it isn't an Ikea showroom. Ther is a diningtable with things on it, I have a sofa with a couple of pillows, books all around...
- normally seated within 3 meters of the speakers. there are 3+1+1 places to sit, I sit according to how I feel the moment.
And last -like in the first post- at normal listening volume and close up (about 1 meter) it all sounds ok. But when you go away from the speaker the bass collapses once you are 2-3 meters away. Mid and high continue fine.
EDIT: yes, bass-reflex, see the photo just above your post, in the middle of the front baffle. In the photo it isn't mounted yet.
Yes, at party level they manage ok. But at normal listening levels they don't.