im building a pair of the pioneer b20 fullrangers supplimented by a piezo(backfiring) soon, and i am also building a pair of 15" drivered(with a 4x4 horn tweet) party speakers that will only be used at partys or large get togethers at friends houses(so ill know in advance when i need to use em)
anyway ive been very intrigued by dipole bass recently, and was wonding if i could make a stereo pair of dipole(h frame) subwoofers. id rather not exeed 28" height, but i can do higher if needbe. More importatnly is the width, preferably not more than 18". Heres the catch, i want to use the drivers that are in the party speakers as the drivers in the dipoles. And if i LOVE the dipole subs, well then ill just buy another pair of 15s when i have the cash.
the 15" drivers id like to use are these
http://www.partsexpress.com/pe/showdetl.cfm?&DID=7&Partnumber=290-384
i dont really much care about stuff below 40hz for my music lsitening as it rarely needs much punch below that, and if i feel it does by some sort of unusual occurance, i have a ported monopole subwoofer that is good <20hz.
how big would it be? should i bother attempting it?
i forgot to to mention, to the only EQ i could apply is from an old realistic brand parametric eq, with 32 and 64hz bands(many more but these are the only ones that will matter for my purposes).
im not sure what i would use the subs for, the pioneers or the energy c-1s i also own and very much love the sound of.
crossing over im not tooo sure about, i always kinda liked the idea of wiring inductors into the signal path of the interconnects(dont amplifiers have higher input impedances than most drivers making this more feasable?)
they would be powered by a 25wpc(a SOLID 25 watts RMS) reciever, giving me delicious stereo bass. i dont think i would run them over 100hz.
all my plans are very loose but i have some major questions
a) how big do these need to be to give me what i want?
b)how should i cross these guys over?
c)should i even bother building these? i remember chops had very good luck with some somewhat similar 15" pyle pro audio drivers.
I am aware that dipole bass is not for high spl, but these will not be played too loud, and the room they are in is small(12x10x8 roughly)
anyway ive been very intrigued by dipole bass recently, and was wonding if i could make a stereo pair of dipole(h frame) subwoofers. id rather not exeed 28" height, but i can do higher if needbe. More importatnly is the width, preferably not more than 18". Heres the catch, i want to use the drivers that are in the party speakers as the drivers in the dipoles. And if i LOVE the dipole subs, well then ill just buy another pair of 15s when i have the cash.
the 15" drivers id like to use are these
http://www.partsexpress.com/pe/showdetl.cfm?&DID=7&Partnumber=290-384
i dont really much care about stuff below 40hz for my music lsitening as it rarely needs much punch below that, and if i feel it does by some sort of unusual occurance, i have a ported monopole subwoofer that is good <20hz.
how big would it be? should i bother attempting it?
i forgot to to mention, to the only EQ i could apply is from an old realistic brand parametric eq, with 32 and 64hz bands(many more but these are the only ones that will matter for my purposes).
im not sure what i would use the subs for, the pioneers or the energy c-1s i also own and very much love the sound of.
crossing over im not tooo sure about, i always kinda liked the idea of wiring inductors into the signal path of the interconnects(dont amplifiers have higher input impedances than most drivers making this more feasable?)
they would be powered by a 25wpc(a SOLID 25 watts RMS) reciever, giving me delicious stereo bass. i dont think i would run them over 100hz.
all my plans are very loose but i have some major questions
a) how big do these need to be to give me what i want?
b)how should i cross these guys over?
c)should i even bother building these? i remember chops had very good luck with some somewhat similar 15" pyle pro audio drivers.
I am aware that dipole bass is not for high spl, but these will not be played too loud, and the room they are in is small(12x10x8 roughly)
I believe the pyle drivers chops used are these.....
http://www.partsexpress.com/pe/showdetl.cfm?&DID=7&Partnumber=292-218
Since they are nearly the same price as the goldwoods, I would rather have the pyles for dipole bass. I actually plan on buying 4 of them eventually. The Fs is lower than the goldwoods and they have a higher Xmax. Both of those things are better qualities to have for dipole bass. The efficiency is lower than the goldwoods, but its a fair trade for the better Fs and Xmax.
As far as the size of the baffle goes....... as big as you can make it. Take the maximum size limit you had in mind and make it that big.
http://www.partsexpress.com/pe/showdetl.cfm?&DID=7&Partnumber=292-218
Since they are nearly the same price as the goldwoods, I would rather have the pyles for dipole bass. I actually plan on buying 4 of them eventually. The Fs is lower than the goldwoods and they have a higher Xmax. Both of those things are better qualities to have for dipole bass. The efficiency is lower than the goldwoods, but its a fair trade for the better Fs and Xmax.
As far as the size of the baffle goes....... as big as you can make it. Take the maximum size limit you had in mind and make it that big.
would a dipole with those drivers reach down to 40hz with punch? thats really all i need, like i said if i like it im buying dirvers for it anyway, and i can jsut buy the pyles as aswapout and get better performance. i really jsut wanna try out dipole bass for now, and if i really like it ill get better drivers.
remember in a small room 95db is killer loud so i shouldnt need that much power.
what about those inline crossovers?coudl you make an inline second order?
remember in a small room 95db is killer loud so i shouldnt need that much power.
what about those inline crossovers?coudl you make an inline second order?
You've read the thread entitled "My first dipole subwoofer" no doubt. I think that should answer all the questions you've posed.
I'm with the anonymous 1 in that I too plan on getting four of those Pyle 15s at some point.
I foolishly decided to do a proof of principle experiment with four of these:
10" buyout woofers from PartsExpress
The experiment worked and I liked it enough to get four more but the cost was nearly what it would have been for four of the Pyles.
I'm driving these with the MCM buyout plate amp. I built two s-shaped open baffles each of which holds four of these drivers. They produce pretty low bass but they tend to distort pretty badly at higher volumes.
I wish I had just gone for the Pyles. I think they will sound great and everything I read in chops' thread reinforces that.
I originally bought two of those MCM sub plate amps and have since purchased four more and I think that one of them would be perfect for two of the Pyle drivers. Mmmmm.... stereo dipole bass.
I'm with the anonymous 1 in that I too plan on getting four of those Pyle 15s at some point.
I foolishly decided to do a proof of principle experiment with four of these:
10" buyout woofers from PartsExpress
The experiment worked and I liked it enough to get four more but the cost was nearly what it would have been for four of the Pyles.
I'm driving these with the MCM buyout plate amp. I built two s-shaped open baffles each of which holds four of these drivers. They produce pretty low bass but they tend to distort pretty badly at higher volumes.
I wish I had just gone for the Pyles. I think they will sound great and everything I read in chops' thread reinforces that.
I originally bought two of those MCM sub plate amps and have since purchased four more and I think that one of them would be perfect for two of the Pyle drivers. Mmmmm.... stereo dipole bass.
Absolutely. But you need to remember one thing, when your using a driver like these for subs, your maximum output level at low frequencies is limited by the drivers Xmax. This is why I plan on using two per side.
I am going to be making the so called "ripole" enclosures. This type of dipole loads the speaker in such a way that the Fs of the driver is actually lowered. So if you used a driver like the pyle with an Fs of around 27hz, in a riploe setup you might lower the Fs down close to 20hz.
This link is a good example of a ripole. Click on "RiPol 30 Building Instruction " at the bottom of the page.
http://www.lautsprechershop.de/hifi/index_en.htm?/hifi/ripol_en.htm
This is for a 12" sub, but its easy to modify the design for larger drivers. The front opening of the ripole should be 25-30% of the drivers Sd. I am going to use a 24db/octive active crossover at around 60hz, so I won't need the crossover thats shown in the plans.
You should have a look at the Linkwitz lab site for some good information on dipole bass. There is a spreadsheet for estimating output as well.
One way to estimate SPL is simulate in WinISD in a sealed box at say 40 Hz with xmax reached. Then subtract dipole cancellation, which is 1st order below fequal.
So if dipole cancellation occurs below 80 Hz (fequal), then you subtract 6db
fequal = 58/D where D = baffle radius in metres
Hence a 1m wide baffle will have an fequal = 116 Hz
If the total width is 18" then fequal = ~130 Hz
65 Hz = 6db down
32.5 Hz = 12db down
40 Hz = ~9db down
So you will get about 9db less output than a sealed box at 40 Hz
This is where xmax and SD are more important than efficiency as even low efficiency sub drivers don't need much power to reach their xmax limits.
One way to estimate SPL is simulate in WinISD in a sealed box at say 40 Hz with xmax reached. Then subtract dipole cancellation, which is 1st order below fequal.
So if dipole cancellation occurs below 80 Hz (fequal), then you subtract 6db
fequal = 58/D where D = baffle radius in metres
Hence a 1m wide baffle will have an fequal = 116 Hz
If the total width is 18" then fequal = ~130 Hz
65 Hz = 6db down
32.5 Hz = 12db down
40 Hz = ~9db down
So you will get about 9db less output than a sealed box at 40 Hz
This is where xmax and SD are more important than efficiency as even low efficiency sub drivers don't need much power to reach their xmax limits.
well a normal dipole will be adequate for me, and for most of my listening the two 5 1/4 drivers in my energies have enough bass, in SOME cases the excursion gets uncomfortably high(just visually they are moving about a centimetre), but the sound is not distorted. And the only time it does this is when large amounts of LF comes by like is dark side of the moon. so two 15s, even in a dipole should be more than enough for me.
what about my idea for inline crossovers? would is be possable to do a second order? how does one determine the input impedance of an amplifier? just measure the resistance with a dmm?
what about my idea for inline crossovers? would is be possable to do a second order? how does one determine the input impedance of an amplifier? just measure the resistance with a dmm?
Here is a passive line level crossover how-to......
http://www.t-linespeakers.org/tech/filters/passiveHLxo.html
http://www.t-linespeakers.org/tech/filters/passiveHLxo.html
cytokine,
How are those 10" buyouts? I've been seriously looking at them to cover the bottom 1-3 octaves for a couple different OB projects. They spec out great for OB use, but since they don't give the branding on the PE site or even give something simple like the recommended frequency use range, its hard to theorize about if they're any good or not.
I'm running some fullrangers in small baffles in my office, but they're only good into the 60-70Hz range. I'm thinking of going with a series xover running a touch hot at 60Hz for those.
I'm also wanting to build a couple short lines out of old Monsoon drivers (the planars from the last batch of multimedia speakers they put out), which crap out entirely at 200Hz, but distort like crazy if you actually try to run them full range. Again, I'll probably try a series xover, maybe running flat at around 225Hz.
Both of these will be running on relatively small baffles (less than 2'x2', though hinge mounted to my desk, so effectively much larger, and the outer edges are close to the walls since the desk is backed into a corner, and there's a fake ficus in the corner behind it as a sort of room treatment), and will be in the nearfield (the drivers only 3'-4' away from my ears most of the time). You think these 10"ers are up to muster for that?
I've also thought they would be ideal in size and parameters to use for the bottom end on a pair of MMG-Ws (the ultimate fullranger in my opinion). Your comments about them distorting make me think that probably 2 (1 at either end of the MMG-W for a long MTM sort of arrangement) or possibly 4 (basically making a line next to the MMG-W) might be necessary to support the bottom end in my large and open living room where such things would be set up.
As the only person I've found who has any experience with these drivers, I value your thoughts.
Kensai
How are those 10" buyouts? I've been seriously looking at them to cover the bottom 1-3 octaves for a couple different OB projects. They spec out great for OB use, but since they don't give the branding on the PE site or even give something simple like the recommended frequency use range, its hard to theorize about if they're any good or not.
I'm running some fullrangers in small baffles in my office, but they're only good into the 60-70Hz range. I'm thinking of going with a series xover running a touch hot at 60Hz for those.
I'm also wanting to build a couple short lines out of old Monsoon drivers (the planars from the last batch of multimedia speakers they put out), which crap out entirely at 200Hz, but distort like crazy if you actually try to run them full range. Again, I'll probably try a series xover, maybe running flat at around 225Hz.
Both of these will be running on relatively small baffles (less than 2'x2', though hinge mounted to my desk, so effectively much larger, and the outer edges are close to the walls since the desk is backed into a corner, and there's a fake ficus in the corner behind it as a sort of room treatment), and will be in the nearfield (the drivers only 3'-4' away from my ears most of the time). You think these 10"ers are up to muster for that?
I've also thought they would be ideal in size and parameters to use for the bottom end on a pair of MMG-Ws (the ultimate fullranger in my opinion). Your comments about them distorting make me think that probably 2 (1 at either end of the MMG-W for a long MTM sort of arrangement) or possibly 4 (basically making a line next to the MMG-W) might be necessary to support the bottom end in my large and open living room where such things would be set up.
As the only person I've found who has any experience with these drivers, I value your thoughts.
Kensai
I've only had a few minutes to listen to them since I put the lines together. I put on Nightsong by Nusrat Fateh Ali Khan when I first was getting them dialed in with my NSB line arrays and I was frankly impressed with their output. It was low and loud at the volume I was listening.
I haven't done any critical listening since then although I was trying to dial them it with another smaller fullrange project that I'm fooling with. I was listening more to the fullrange drivers than the bass when I was doing that and I was pretty tired when I was doing it so I don't want to give impressions based on that.
I don't think they sound awfully bad. Remember I'm running 8 of them off a 150 W plate amp crossed over pretty low. That's enough power to get them to distort pretty badly if you push them too hard.
As I believe I said above, for 8 of these it was almost what 4 of the Pyles would have cost and the Pyles are more or less proven for OB use. Yes these 10s spec out right for OB use but you need a lot of them to move the air. A four driver line is four feet tall. If you want that at your desk, so be it.
Bottom line, go ahead and try it and tell me what you think. I don't want to tell you they are great because they probably aren't, but they are fun to play with and don't look too bad.
I bet that doesn't help but I did try.
Let us know what you decide and how it goes.
I haven't done any critical listening since then although I was trying to dial them it with another smaller fullrange project that I'm fooling with. I was listening more to the fullrange drivers than the bass when I was doing that and I was pretty tired when I was doing it so I don't want to give impressions based on that.
I don't think they sound awfully bad. Remember I'm running 8 of them off a 150 W plate amp crossed over pretty low. That's enough power to get them to distort pretty badly if you push them too hard.
As I believe I said above, for 8 of these it was almost what 4 of the Pyles would have cost and the Pyles are more or less proven for OB use. Yes these 10s spec out right for OB use but you need a lot of them to move the air. A four driver line is four feet tall. If you want that at your desk, so be it.
Bottom line, go ahead and try it and tell me what you think. I don't want to tell you they are great because they probably aren't, but they are fun to play with and don't look too bad.
I bet that doesn't help but I did try.
Let us know what you decide and how it goes.
Not really 😉
I'm interested in those 10s because 1) they're cheap, 2) they spec right and 3) they're only 10s. They'll fit on my current baffles and they'll work with other projects I have going on. A 15" Pyle will not fit into the horizontal space of the current baffles by itself, let alone with any other drivers, and it would make the design of the new baffles tricky at best, not just because of the size but because of the added weight (been getting away with black foamcore binder clipped to stretcher bars so far 😉 ).
What level are you at when you're getting distortion? Nearfield like I'm at now, and amping with an SI T-Amp right now, I doubt I can drive them that hard at the moment. Your line of 8 should be 98 or 101 dB sensitive, right? Pretty darned loud with almost no power.
So, what do you guys think of these Pyles put into a ripole? The drivers used in the ripole link above only have a Qts in the high to mid .40s, so I'm guessing that design doesn't need a Qts near .7 to be viable. Probably need to find an appropriate driver specing similarly to that particular driver, I guess. Anyway, such a thing could be stood up on its edge and put "somewhere" out of the way as long as it could breath on both ends. Using 12" drivers, it could be a 14"x7x14" box . . . something for me to think about.
Kensai
I'm interested in those 10s because 1) they're cheap, 2) they spec right and 3) they're only 10s. They'll fit on my current baffles and they'll work with other projects I have going on. A 15" Pyle will not fit into the horizontal space of the current baffles by itself, let alone with any other drivers, and it would make the design of the new baffles tricky at best, not just because of the size but because of the added weight (been getting away with black foamcore binder clipped to stretcher bars so far 😉 ).
What level are you at when you're getting distortion? Nearfield like I'm at now, and amping with an SI T-Amp right now, I doubt I can drive them that hard at the moment. Your line of 8 should be 98 or 101 dB sensitive, right? Pretty darned loud with almost no power.
So, what do you guys think of these Pyles put into a ripole? The drivers used in the ripole link above only have a Qts in the high to mid .40s, so I'm guessing that design doesn't need a Qts near .7 to be viable. Probably need to find an appropriate driver specing similarly to that particular driver, I guess. Anyway, such a thing could be stood up on its edge and put "somewhere" out of the way as long as it could breath on both ends. Using 12" drivers, it could be a 14"x7x14" box . . . something for me to think about.
Kensai
The problem with your 14" depth is that your Fequal (where the dipole roll-off starts) is 164hz. Keeping the drivers at the front of the cab and adding just 6" of depth will get you down to an Fequal of 89hz. I did something similar with 4 12's per side. I used the Ripole approach, but in a W alignment, push/pull, and a 9" U-baffle extension in the back. The total cab size is 26"H x 12"W x 22"D (not bad for housing four 12's) and it has an Fequal of 73hz. It's not pure dipole, but I really don't hear any compromise with the somewhat cardoid radiation pattern. If anything, it's an advantage with the speakers near the front of a room. It was really just a proof of concept that turned out quite well using some cheapie drivers.
Have a look at these
http://www.lautsprechershop.de/hifi/index_en.htm?/hifi/ripol_en.htm
I have just bought four of the Peerless SLS 12 drivers which are perfect for these cabinets especially as they have seriously progressive spider suspensions which will not let the driver bottom out. By the time the smoke cleared the drivers cost me $66.00 CND each shipping included. Small footprint and very low fs (in cabinet) about 21.5 Hz. Fully dipole I will be firing the drivers face to face. Check it out. Regards Moray James.
http://www.lautsprechershop.de/hifi/index_en.htm?/hifi/ripol_en.htm
I have just bought four of the Peerless SLS 12 drivers which are perfect for these cabinets especially as they have seriously progressive spider suspensions which will not let the driver bottom out. By the time the smoke cleared the drivers cost me $66.00 CND each shipping included. Small footprint and very low fs (in cabinet) about 21.5 Hz. Fully dipole I will be firing the drivers face to face. Check it out. Regards Moray James.
I miss my dipoles.
No matter what I have bought or built since, none of them compare to the sheer and effortless output of those dipole subs I had. They NEVER drew attention to themselves, never added anything to the sound, never got boomy, never lacked output at any freq EXCEPT for below 20Hz or so. They dropped off rather quick below 20Hz, but still had some usable output to 16Hz, though pretty quiet at that point.
If you read through that old thread of mine, you'll see I got into a few debates with people saying that the dipoles couldn't do what I was claiming they were doing, such as rolling off after 40Hz and needing a monopole subwoofer to take over from 40Hz down, yada, yada, yada...
All I've got to say is that computer models, measurement plots and so on do not always tell the whole story, and are not always accurate. My dipole subs were living proof of that. I stood by them back then and I still stand by them now.
And to answer your question, YES!, they can punch out (and I do mean punch) some seriously hard 40Hz bass, and with very little power, AND with very little cone movement.
Don't ask me how or why those Pyle Pro PPA15 drivers performed so well in a dipole configuration, why they were so freakin' effecient, and barely moved, even when played extremely loud all the way down to 20Hz. I don't know, and I can't explain it. They just did.
If you really want to build a pair of these and want the performance I was getting, then you're going to have to build them as large as I did. If I remember correctly, they were 24" square and 36" tall with the baffle right in the middle of the H-frame.
I still have the drivers, and if I had the room, I'd build them again and have them running in here again ASAP!!
Good luck on your project! 😉
No matter what I have bought or built since, none of them compare to the sheer and effortless output of those dipole subs I had. They NEVER drew attention to themselves, never added anything to the sound, never got boomy, never lacked output at any freq EXCEPT for below 20Hz or so. They dropped off rather quick below 20Hz, but still had some usable output to 16Hz, though pretty quiet at that point.
If you read through that old thread of mine, you'll see I got into a few debates with people saying that the dipoles couldn't do what I was claiming they were doing, such as rolling off after 40Hz and needing a monopole subwoofer to take over from 40Hz down, yada, yada, yada...
All I've got to say is that computer models, measurement plots and so on do not always tell the whole story, and are not always accurate. My dipole subs were living proof of that. I stood by them back then and I still stand by them now.
And to answer your question, YES!, they can punch out (and I do mean punch) some seriously hard 40Hz bass, and with very little power, AND with very little cone movement.
Don't ask me how or why those Pyle Pro PPA15 drivers performed so well in a dipole configuration, why they were so freakin' effecient, and barely moved, even when played extremely loud all the way down to 20Hz. I don't know, and I can't explain it. They just did.
If you really want to build a pair of these and want the performance I was getting, then you're going to have to build them as large as I did. If I remember correctly, they were 24" square and 36" tall with the baffle right in the middle of the H-frame.
I still have the drivers, and if I had the room, I'd build them again and have them running in here again ASAP!!
Good luck on your project! 😉
Chops,
You can easily be back to eating your cake again. H baffles are just plain wasteful with wood and space, especially if the baffle is larger than just large enough to fit the drivers. Just make an open back box with a depth of half the depth of your H (assuming it was a uniform H). Make the front baffle just large enough to fit your drivers and let them rip. Small size, no waste, and the same extension you had before, with only a slight change in your radiation pattern (but you probably didn't have placement where a figure 8 could be achieved anyway).
You can easily be back to eating your cake again. H baffles are just plain wasteful with wood and space, especially if the baffle is larger than just large enough to fit the drivers. Just make an open back box with a depth of half the depth of your H (assuming it was a uniform H). Make the front baffle just large enough to fit your drivers and let them rip. Small size, no waste, and the same extension you had before, with only a slight change in your radiation pattern (but you probably didn't have placement where a figure 8 could be achieved anyway).
Hate to say it, but if the baffle is smaller, then I wouldn't get anywhere near the extension I used to get. Smaller baffles are what cause dipole subs to roll off sooner. That's why I made mine as large as I did.
Hi Chops,
I'm sure you have read articles on hinged wing or pleated fabric baffles that can keep a room tidy for casual listening, but quickly open up for super sound. This may be a good way to put your drivers back into action. Some designs use a sand filled sandwich for the center baffle board and light weight wings. Plexiglass wings have been used to reduce visual impact.
I'm sure you have read articles on hinged wing or pleated fabric baffles that can keep a room tidy for casual listening, but quickly open up for super sound. This may be a good way to put your drivers back into action. Some designs use a sand filled sandwich for the center baffle board and light weight wings. Plexiglass wings have been used to reduce visual impact.
chops said:
The Fequal point, where dipole bass starts it's -6db per octave roll-off, is determined by the difference in travel distance to your ears for the front and rear waves. In an H configuration, the size of the baffle the driver is mounted on has very little effect, unless the depth is quite shallow, and based on your deep bass claims your H was fairly deep. What really matters is the distance from the driver mounting baffle to the rear edges of the cab. Now since you went with centered on a large mounting baffle, you may have picked up a couple of inches of travel distance (driver to rear edge vs baffle to rear edge), however, the large baffle also put your drivers further off the floor. Laying the much smaller open backed cab on it's side would put the drivers right at the floor and that gain would more than offset that couple of inches and result, in fact, in more bass than before. If you want some extra insurance, make the open backed cab an inch or two deeper than half the depth of your original H cab.
Chops which ones?
Chops: sounds like you hit on a really fine driver for dipole use. what size and which model Pyle and do you have the T/S parameters handy? Thanks Moray James.
Chops: sounds like you hit on a really fine driver for dipole use. what size and which model Pyle and do you have the T/S parameters handy? Thanks Moray James.
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