say what???
Well, Rudolf.... as a musician, I LISTEN for subtle details as well... so I don't think you've properly interpreted what I'm saying.... I didn't speak of mixing up the whole sound stage. Apples and oranges I'm afraid. Don't put words that I didn't say
If you don't feel I have the technical wherewithal to speak to this subject, then just come out and say it, rather than dismissive EE put-downs from the high and mighty. You'd be dead wrong, though.
having read your dipole site, you seem to over-simplify by necessity, leaving out the major issue of transient waveforms in your modeling. After all, complex (and simple) music is made up of continuously varying envelopes, not individual sinusoids, fft's notwithstanding.
Cheers
auplater
John,
I believe, what StigErik is talking about is much more subtle than what some sound engineers are doing to their recordings.
I've got orchestral recordings where the engineer obviously didn't want to separate any parts of the orchestra from one another. One hundred musicians crowded in a 20° space and the rest of the stereo basis full of reverb.
When I talked about the asymmetry of baffles, it should only affect finer details - not mixing up the whole sound stage.
Rudolf
Well, Rudolf.... as a musician, I LISTEN for subtle details as well... so I don't think you've properly interpreted what I'm saying.... I didn't speak of mixing up the whole sound stage. Apples and oranges I'm afraid. Don't put words that I didn't say
If you don't feel I have the technical wherewithal to speak to this subject, then just come out and say it, rather than dismissive EE put-downs from the high and mighty. You'd be dead wrong, though.
having read your dipole site, you seem to over-simplify by necessity, leaving out the major issue of transient waveforms in your modeling. After all, complex (and simple) music is made up of continuously varying envelopes, not individual sinusoids, fft's notwithstanding.
Cheers
auplater
Sorry, it took me some time to find out, what upset you so much.
When I wrote that "not mixing up the whole sound stage" I really wasn't aware that it could be interpreted as putting it into your mouth. I looked no further than to some bad sound mixer. I apologize for provoking a wrong impression.
Being dismissive to others - especially from a point of deeper knowledge - does look like a very bad trait to me. Hopefully I don't give that impression in general. I really try to make complicated things understandable in more digestible ways than pure science does. I would accept any "allegation" of "simplifying" in that context much more than that of being arrogant.
Rudolf
When I wrote that "not mixing up the whole sound stage" I really wasn't aware that it could be interpreted as putting it into your mouth. I looked no further than to some bad sound mixer. I apologize for provoking a wrong impression.
Being dismissive to others - especially from a point of deeper knowledge - does look like a very bad trait to me. Hopefully I don't give that impression in general. I really try to make complicated things understandable in more digestible ways than pure science does. I would accept any "allegation"
of "simplifying" in that context much more than that of being arrogant.Rudolf
From my experience I would expect the woofers to introduce some asymmetry in the RDs' lower operating range; the wavelengths there should be long enough one has to get 75cm or so from the drivers to observe a dipole pattern. Not sure how significant the effect would be in this configuration, but I've seen broadband shifts of a few dB with related phenomena in point source measurements; Stig Erik, do you have left and right polars?
(As an aside, I was also surprised by auplater's reaction.
)
Yeah, I measured and heard those asymmetries with small drivers mounted far off axis in wide baffles. For sure there was a difference in imaging, whether I used the OBs with the drivers close together or far apart.
Since I haven't had the opportunity to listen to such "open" configurations as StigEriks, I was wondering, when the baffle really dissappears (as an acoustical obstacle).
Rudolf
Sorry, it took me some time to find out, what upset you so much.
When I wrote that "not mixing up the whole sound stage" I really wasn't aware that it could be interpreted as putting it into your mouth. I looked no further than to some bad sound mixer. I apologize for provoking a wrong impression.
Being dismissive to others - especially from a point of deeper knowledge - does look like a very bad trait to me. Hopefully I don't give that impression in general. I really try to make complicated things understandable in more digestible ways than pure science does. I would accept any "allegation"
Rudolf
email and web forum are places where misunderstandings can happen easily. we cant sit across from each other and without seeing body language and intention a subtle question can escalate into "internet keyboard war of words".
i wish to commend rudolf for going out of his way to try to mend the fences and create shared understanding and knowledge. i like to spend time with people in forums and in real life who are humble enough to try to see the other persons position and find common ground for shared knowledge and experience. something we as humans should do more of in general.
Yes, good point. I will look into that by measuring. However, by just listening the off-axis response seems to be very even at both sides.
Very good off-axis response you have there.While I built my Rd 75 Dipoles baffled 5 yrs. ago, and don't much hear any great advantage in "CD" in practice, I certainly don't have any dynamic range issues with them...xover @ 600 Hz
slight downward tilt from ~ 1Khz up is personal preference... these will measure flat, but that sounds too brite to me...
2nd plot is off axis @15, 30, 45, & 60 degrees @ 3 meters
Set-up flat... sounds too shrill
John L
When I see your "flat" curve I do think it will sound bright too. The overall level seems to go a little down below 300 Hz or so? And there is not much bass either.
Myself I prefer to have it more or less flat from 1 kHz and up, with the level increasing 1-2 dB from 1 kHz down to 100 Hz, and then a 10 dB rise in response down to 20 Hz, not far from what you have here in fact.
A funny thing is that a recording studio design company in the US use exactly the same target curve when they set up monitoring systems in studios. Guess their tastes are just like mine.
RD-75's array
Sorry, those plots are gated to ~300 hz... anything below is pretty much junk.
The speakers actually have good output down to 35-40 Hz or so, but I measured the on and off axis using a turntable and didn't spatially average the low frequencies, so the modal region is not included. I use 4 12 inch sonotube subwoofers, strategically placed in my listening area (~15,000 ft^2) like the Harmon recommendations (though I've done this for more than 10 years. needless to say, bass is awesome, shaking evrything in the house on appropriate material. I've always believed you have to drive the room correctly to get decent tight bass, avoiding modal dominance.
Yeah... I took them to a speaker day in lexington KY a few yrs. back after screwing around the nite b4 getting them as absolutely flat as possible... what a disaster... I forgot to put them back into the "preferred" xover setup... and the demo went bad....
I still wonder why home theater soundtracks are much more enveloping than most of the recorded music I have...
What I like most about these is the way they fill the entire space with quality sound and have a serious 'jump' factor, as in "who else is in the room and why are they playing live music'....
John L.
Very good off-axis response you have there.
When I see your "flat" curve I do think it will sound bright too. The overall level seems to go a little down below 300 Hz or so? And there is not much bass either.
Sorry, those plots are gated to ~300 hz... anything below is pretty much junk.
The speakers actually have good output down to 35-40 Hz or so, but I measured the on and off axis using a turntable and didn't spatially average the low frequencies, so the modal region is not included. I use 4 12 inch sonotube subwoofers, strategically placed in my listening area (~15,000 ft^2) like the Harmon recommendations (though I've done this for more than 10 years. needless to say, bass is awesome, shaking evrything in the house on appropriate material. I've always believed you have to drive the room correctly to get decent tight bass, avoiding modal dominance.
Yeah... I took them to a speaker day in lexington KY a few yrs. back after screwing around the nite b4 getting them as absolutely flat as possible...
what a disaster... I forgot to put them back into the "preferred" xover setup... and the demo went bad....A funny thing is that a recording studio design company in the US use exactly the same target curve when they set up monitoring systems in studios. Guess their tastes are just like mine.
I still wonder why home theater soundtracks are much more enveloping than most of the recorded music I have...
What I like most about these is the way they fill the entire space with quality sound and have a serious 'jump' factor, as in "who else is in the room and why are they playing live music'....
John L.
Ok Stig! Thanks! How about using 4 of RD75 on each side for horizontal line array? I know it'll cost a lot but I think Parts Express may willing to do some big discount for 8-10 of them.
The question is would it mess up imaging? I guess efficiency can be increased this way.
After some tests in my listening room I ended up liking the more direct sound from my current dipoles better.
The original plan was to use these line source speakers in our living room, replacing a three-way closed box system. The dipoles will have much better off-axis response, and should work better in this room, which has no acoustical treatment on any walls. Listening distance will be around 3 meters, and I hope the line sources will work better for this listening distance, which is twice what I have in my dedicated listening room.
I hope to be able to set it up this weekend, if the Almight Interior Decorator approves...
The original plan was to use these line source speakers in our living room, replacing a three-way closed box system. The dipoles will have much better off-axis response, and should work better in this room, which has no acoustical treatment on any walls. Listening distance will be around 3 meters, and I hope the line sources will work better for this listening distance, which is twice what I have in my dedicated listening room.
I hope to be able to set it up this weekend, if the Almight Interior Decorator approves...
I hope to be able to set it up this weekend, if the Almight Interior Decorator approves...
... she didnt....
Plan B to follow, whatever that might be....
... she didnt....
Plan B to follow, whatever that might be....
How about some nice acoustically transparent covers with Laura Ashley decor?
Last resort would be the "RAMBO for SWMBO" strategy: As a compensation for her acceptance invite her to a relaxed shopping afternoon at the Galleria Vittorio Emanuele in Milano - just off the cathedral. They've got a fine PRADA shop there, selling some exclusive leatherware - shoes, bags etc. Makes the SEAS "Exotic" series look like a Parts Express buy out - pricewise. She will love you (and your loudspeakers).
Rudolf
Hi
Where did you get all of those speakers I cant even find two let alone 24.
David
After some months sleep the dipole line-arrays are back in my listening room. Since last I've done a lot of upgrades with the room's acoustics, and also changed amps from ICEpower to Hypex. And whow.. what a surprise! They really sound great, much better than I remember!
More info and pics will follow!
More info and pics will follow!
i am happy to see that you picked up the RD75 topic again .
i just like the idea of the line array .
i was wondering if you have seen this information :
http://daveayers.com/rd_ribbons.pdf
Listening Distances
The RD drivers are essentially line-source radiators, hence there is a certain
relation between the driver length and listening distance, as outlined the table
below. Smaller listening distances may result in a somewhat subjective
perception of decreased output at the highest frequencies. This limitation can be
overcome in smaller systems with a complementing supertweeter.
Model RD75 RD50 RD40 RD28.1
Minimum recommended
listening distance 15 ft. 10 ft. 8 ft. 6 ft.
which would mean that for a listening distance of 10' they would recommend the RD50 .
anybody know why ?
i am very curious how this will develop and compare to the other (preferred) Dipole .
does anybody know how a line array of neo8 would compare to the RD75 ?
some of the specs for the neo8 look good , i am wondering how low they can be crossed over and if they would need a tweeter , but i seem to remember projects where they were used without tweeter ???
i just like the idea of the line array .
i was wondering if you have seen this information :
http://daveayers.com/rd_ribbons.pdf
Listening Distances
The RD drivers are essentially line-source radiators, hence there is a certain
relation between the driver length and listening distance, as outlined the table
below. Smaller listening distances may result in a somewhat subjective
perception of decreased output at the highest frequencies. This limitation can be
overcome in smaller systems with a complementing supertweeter.
Model RD75 RD50 RD40 RD28.1
Minimum recommended
listening distance 15 ft. 10 ft. 8 ft. 6 ft.
which would mean that for a listening distance of 10' they would recommend the RD50 .
anybody know why ?
i am very curious how this will develop and compare to the other (preferred) Dipole .
does anybody know how a line array of neo8 would compare to the RD75 ?
some of the specs for the neo8 look good , i am wondering how low they can be crossed over and if they would need a tweeter , but i seem to remember projects where they were used without tweeter ???
I have no idea whats behind the recommended listening distance, anyway I don't care... I'm listening to my 1.9 meter tall ribbons at 1.6 meter distance...
I've noticed that it needs 10 dB EQ at 20kHz, but that does not change with distance. The low end response (below 1 kHz) sure does change with distance, so it will sound different at different listening distance.
The RD-75 can be crossed over as low as 150 Hz, although I would recommend 300-500 Hz. That's not possible with Neo8, I don't think there is much response below 1 kHz, even if you stack several drivers.
I've noticed that it needs 10 dB EQ at 20kHz, but that does not change with distance. The low end response (below 1 kHz) sure does change with distance, so it will sound different at different listening distance.
The RD-75 can be crossed over as low as 150 Hz, although I would recommend 300-500 Hz. That's not possible with Neo8, I don't think there is much response below 1 kHz, even if you stack several drivers.
listening distance
I would suppose the listening distance quoted is in relation to the Fraunhofer/Fresnel zone transition (far field/near field), since in the nearfield the directivity is distance dependent, hence the subjective loss of higher frequencies.
I don't experience this with my RD-75s, but I've got a supertweeter and other drivers tweaked to minimize the effects, plus I listen in the far field anyway (~6 wavelengths from the 600 Hz xover point)
John L.
I would suppose the listening distance quoted is in relation to the Fraunhofer/Fresnel zone transition (far field/near field), since in the nearfield the directivity is distance dependent, hence the subjective loss of higher frequencies.
I don't experience this with my RD-75s, but I've got a supertweeter and other drivers tweaked to minimize the effects, plus I listen in the far field anyway (~6 wavelengths from the 600 Hz xover point)
John L.
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