I bought a reissue of a classic '70's Hawkwind album by 'Let Them Eat Vinyl' and was disappointed by the sound quality. Given that the pressing quality was definitely above average and the DMM process seemed ok to my ears, I think this is for two reasons:
1) First, although it was claimed to be mastered from an original analog tape, it clearly was converted to digital and back before the DMM.
2) Second, it sounds as if some 'up to date' dynamic processing was applied. I hate that stuff. Modern day compressors would have been tossed into the garbage before the '80's because of all the damage they do to music imaging, stability, image precision, dynamics, you name it- damage that isn't apparent in CD quality and worse recordings, but that is torturously obvious in an LP pressing.
Btw, I'm 53, and digital artifacts are about 80% as annoying to me now as when I was half my age. Incidentally, I earn my living designing DVRs, DSC's, and products for military applications, etc. using DSPs with DDR2 SDRAM with current interfaces such as USB 2.0, SATA, SD card, Gigabit Ethernet etc., so I think I know my way around the digital block.
1) First, although it was claimed to be mastered from an original analog tape, it clearly was converted to digital and back before the DMM.
2) Second, it sounds as if some 'up to date' dynamic processing was applied. I hate that stuff. Modern day compressors would have been tossed into the garbage before the '80's because of all the damage they do to music imaging, stability, image precision, dynamics, you name it- damage that isn't apparent in CD quality and worse recordings, but that is torturously obvious in an LP pressing.
Btw, I'm 53, and digital artifacts are about 80% as annoying to me now as when I was half my age. Incidentally, I earn my living designing DVRs, DSC's, and products for military applications, etc. using DSPs with DDR2 SDRAM with current interfaces such as USB 2.0, SATA, SD card, Gigabit Ethernet etc., so I think I know my way around the digital block.
thoriated..yup, and almost always do.
years ago Frank Doris reviewed the Experience Hendrix LLC cds, as Eddie Cramer re-engineered all of the Jimi Hendrix albums to cd and thought they were at least on par with his vinyl albums. I've never had any of Hendix's vinyl so I can't compare, but listen to any "mass market" popular recording and it is SO obvious the B.S. that many engineers pull in the name of "dynamics" and "improved sound".
Perhaps the best CD I own , recorded by a popular band are two releases from "Boston" , where they go to some length describing that they used a completely analog recording method. The cds sound pretty good to. I've toyed with the idea of recording LPs "raw", straight into a cdr, without RIAA equalization and playing them back through a phono stage. I'm not sure if I'd be able to capture some of the analog "magic" but at least there will be a reasonable sound (I hope) with the convenience of cd. To me that's all that digital audio has going for it, convenience.
I'm sure that once you (not necessarily you, specifically, but rather generally) get into some serious digital gear, the sound improves, but you cannot process out a poorly engineered and recorded piece of music.
years ago Frank Doris reviewed the Experience Hendrix LLC cds, as Eddie Cramer re-engineered all of the Jimi Hendrix albums to cd and thought they were at least on par with his vinyl albums. I've never had any of Hendix's vinyl so I can't compare, but listen to any "mass market" popular recording and it is SO obvious the B.S. that many engineers pull in the name of "dynamics" and "improved sound".
Perhaps the best CD I own , recorded by a popular band are two releases from "Boston" , where they go to some length describing that they used a completely analog recording method. The cds sound pretty good to. I've toyed with the idea of recording LPs "raw", straight into a cdr, without RIAA equalization and playing them back through a phono stage. I'm not sure if I'd be able to capture some of the analog "magic" but at least there will be a reasonable sound (I hope) with the convenience of cd. To me that's all that digital audio has going for it, convenience.
I'm sure that once you (not necessarily you, specifically, but rather generally) get into some serious digital gear, the sound improves, but you cannot process out a poorly engineered and recorded piece of music.
This is not a good idea; at these low signal levels - we're talking mV's - the CD has only a tiny resolution left, since you're using only a tiny part of the (possible) dynamic range.
Have fun, Hannes
easy enough to overcome...
just use my handy dandy all-purpose T-amp to drive the signal to 3 Volts, that should be enough...
just use my handy dandy all-purpose T-amp to drive the signal to 3 Volts, that should be enough...
?Eh?
Your handy dandy T-amp amplifies a factor 1000? Strange amp! And then you want to feed that signal into the phono stage? A 3V signal into a millivolt phono stage? Gringo, that won't work!
All the best, Hannes
Your handy dandy T-amp amplifies a factor 1000? Strange amp! And then you want to feed that signal into the phono stage? A 3V signal into a millivolt phono stage? Gringo, that won't work!
All the best, Hannes
FWIW, I record LPs to CDs through a good phono preamp and lose very little of the so-called LP magic. IMO, the problems with modern mass produced CDs are somewhere else, not due to limitations of digital methods.
I will say that I believe part of the reason LPs can sound so good is that they contaminate the music with all manner of artifacts that, for whatever reason, we find improves the realism of the music. The LP process can be considered a signal processing technique, just like a DSP!
Maybe someone can comment on the longevity of master tapes- do they really sound the same today as they did 30+ years ago? Consider that the playback heads are probably higher resolution today, and the circuitry is probably *way* different than what was in the machines when the original artistic judgements were made.
I will say that I believe part of the reason LPs can sound so good is that they contaminate the music with all manner of artifacts that, for whatever reason, we find improves the realism of the music. The LP process can be considered a signal processing technique, just like a DSP!
Maybe someone can comment on the longevity of master tapes- do they really sound the same today as they did 30+ years ago? Consider that the playback heads are probably higher resolution today, and the circuitry is probably *way* different than what was in the machines when the original artistic judgements were made.
h_a, Eh? you're no Canuck...
so leave the Canuckisms to us Canucks 😉
ok, few mV to dV (that'd be deci-Volts) so a factor of 100...
or input it all directly into audacity, and give it "digital gain". Currently I'm using a phono stage with 2.5-5mV iput sensitivity. An Ortofon MC3 Turbo cartridge drives the phono stage nicely (using the .7 Volt output option) There is also an additional gain stage as the phono stage also has an active preamp as well.
Lps can sound so good for a number of reasons. As Conrad points out, perhaps it's just euphonious artifacts, much like what tubes do. Maybe it was the care and craft of doing everything in analog, where "instant fixes" simply were not available . And no doubt, those that continue to record in analog now are committed to whatever it does for a reason. The dreaded "analog vs. digital" argument/debate begins again....
so leave the Canuckisms to us Canucks 😉
ok, few mV to dV (that'd be deci-Volts) so a factor of 100...
or input it all directly into audacity, and give it "digital gain". Currently I'm using a phono stage with 2.5-5mV iput sensitivity. An Ortofon MC3 Turbo cartridge drives the phono stage nicely (using the .7 Volt output option) There is also an additional gain stage as the phono stage also has an active preamp as well.
Lps can sound so good for a number of reasons. As Conrad points out, perhaps it's just euphonious artifacts, much like what tubes do. Maybe it was the care and craft of doing everything in analog, where "instant fixes" simply were not available . And no doubt, those that continue to record in analog now are committed to whatever it does for a reason. The dreaded "analog vs. digital" argument/debate begins again....
Hehe, will do.
I was just not understanding how your idea should work. If you record directly onto CD you loose all digital resolution since the signal is mV. If you amplify the signal and burn it then, you can't feed the signal from CD into your phonostage.
Given that RIAA-equalisation amplifies the signal by 1000 (60dB) in the worst case you cannot apply it to the linelevel signal - then your pre/power amp would clip badly.
Anyway, have fun Canucks! Hannes
I just received an original US United Artists version of this album via Ebay, and it looks like I lucked out, because after cleaning and listening to one disc (so far), it sounds as if it was almost unplayed by the previous owner, so barring an English release in pristine condition or a reissue on 180g vinyl I don't know about, this is probably about as well I as can expect to do for this album.
- Status
- Not open for further replies.