Re: I HATE TO WAIT.
Ok, I'll buy that, but then doesn't that directly correlate to noise floor?
Odd order distortion is very unpleasant on the human ear.[/QUOTE]
I'm aware of all that. I was merely saying I liked the term he used.
fdegrove said:
Ok, I'll buy that, but then doesn't that directly correlate to noise floor?
Odd order distortion is very unpleasant on the human ear.[/QUOTE]
I'm aware of all that. I was merely saying I liked the term he used.
Frank said:
It depends on the complex (tetrode/pentode) being the primitive, which it clearly is not.
Do you think you have any high order harmonics?
Cheers,🙂
Yes, I've heard this one before, but I don't beleive it actual has any actual meaning outside of paperspace - another neologism-.
It depends on the complex (tetrode/pentode) being the primitive, which it clearly is not.
Have you looked at the distortion spectra?
Do you think you have any high order harmonics?
Italian tonight?
Cheers,🙂
FLOORED.
Hello,
Yes Joel,that and distortion of course.
The lower both are the better your chance is to retrieve this detail.
Ciao,😉
Hello,
Yes Joel,that and distortion of course.
The lower both are the better your chance is to retrieve this detail.
Ciao,😉
Bash Frank season!
All SE amps do, particularly valve ones.
And that is just considering one stage at a time. With adjacent stages clipping, what's your Fourier analysis?
Valve PP amps, when properly balanced, have only odd order distortion.
Cost: 0.2Eurocents.............
Cheers
This is a gross generalisation.
All SE amps do, particularly valve ones.
And that is just considering one stage at a time. With adjacent stages clipping, what's your Fourier analysis?
Valve PP amps, when properly balanced, have only odd order distortion.
Cost: 0.2Eurocents.............
Cheers
HARMONICALLY CORRECT.
Hi,
Yes.
Predominantly even order distortion of 0.01 % at 1W 1KHz.
Virtually no crossover distortion when switching for class A to B thanks to the absence of OPT.
The extra grids in the penthode/tetrode prevent internal feedback.
Tie these to the anode and you get a nice pretty triode often as linear as you could whish for.
How did this happen?
Not me,after midnight it'll be another Cahors perhaps.
Cheers,😎
Hi,
Yes.
Predominantly even order distortion of 0.01 % at 1W 1KHz.
Virtually no crossover distortion when switching for class A to B thanks to the absence of OPT.
The extra grids in the penthode/tetrode prevent internal feedback.
Tie these to the anode and you get a nice pretty triode often as linear as you could whish for.
How did this happen?
Not me,after midnight it'll be another Cahors perhaps.
Cheers,😎
SHOT IN THE BACK.
Hi,
It is.
Were we not discussing SE and PSE?
PP:efficency comes at a price and the average penthode tends to produce more odd harmonic distortion as well.
There is a lot that one can say about distortion and how it is perceived but I'ld like to keep a bit for those +1000 posts.
Ciao,😉
Hi,
It is.
Were we not discussing SE and PSE?
PP:efficency comes at a price and the average penthode tends to produce more odd harmonic distortion as well.
There is a lot that one can say about distortion and how it is perceived but I'ld like to keep a bit for those +1000 posts.
Ciao,😉
Open season
It hapened because you reverted it back to a primitive 😉
Anyway, nice 1w distortion figures.
But I beleive that the spectrum is important; of course 'odds are out, but what about the higher order 'evens, are you of the opinion (he said resepectfully), that they matter?
Cheers,
It hapened because you reverted it back to a primitive 😉
Anyway, nice 1w distortion figures.
But I beleive that the spectrum is important; of course 'odds are out, but what about the higher order 'evens, are you of the opinion (he said resepectfully), that they matter?
Cheers,
THEY SURE KNOW HOW TO KEEP'EM BUSY
Hi,
Spectrum analysis shows:
First and second harmonic distortion to be most present on a %
basis.
Of the two the odd one is more unpleasant to the human ear.
The cat won't like it either.
Third and fourth order are exactly as the naming suggests:
an order of magnitude smaller and they can not exist on their own,being ovetones of the first and second ones.
Good enough?
Ciao,😉
Hi,
Spectrum analysis shows:
First and second harmonic distortion to be most present on a %
basis.
Of the two the odd one is more unpleasant to the human ear.
The cat won't like it either.
Third and fourth order are exactly as the naming suggests:
an order of magnitude smaller and they can not exist on their own,being ovetones of the first and second ones.
Good enough?
Ciao,😉
Last orders...........
First harmonic:
I found a good rejection circuit: the volume control😀
Even the cat agrees.
I won't get petty on the 'orders.
time 2 go,
Cheers (-5minutes),
First harmonic:
I found a good rejection circuit: the volume control😀
Even the cat agrees.
I won't get petty on the 'orders.
time 2 go,
Cheers (-5minutes),
SERIES CONNECTION.
Hi Thorsten,
Connecting two identical secondary windings on two separate xformers in series would give twice the impedance.
So to obtain an 8 Ohm impedance you simply connect both 4 Ohm taps together.
In case the windings would share the same magnetic core your statement would be correct IMHO.
Ciao,😉
Hi Thorsten,
Connecting two identical secondary windings on two separate xformers in series would give twice the impedance.
So to obtain an 8 Ohm impedance you simply connect both 4 Ohm taps together.
In case the windings would share the same magnetic core your statement would be correct IMHO.
Ciao,😉
ok but has anyone tried building two amps Identical exept one with one out put tube and one with two in SEP configuration and compared the sound?
Konnichiwa,
Not really. But was done that Kondo San (Audio note Japan) build the Amp's (Branasu/Kegon) and a friend of mine and myself compared. On some recording there was little difference in sound on others the single valve was way ahead in retrieving low level detail, soundstaging etc...
Sayonara
brsanko said:
Not really. But was done that Kondo San (Audio note Japan) build the Amp's (Branasu/Kegon) and a friend of mine and myself compared. On some recording there was little difference in sound on others the single valve was way ahead in retrieving low level detail, soundstaging etc...
Sayonara
Hi
Something I don’t understand,
Why is 4th order distortion more pleasant than 3rd order?
I do not think so, I think the problem is the presence of high order components of distortion and not of odd order components.
bye
Federico
Something I don’t understand,
Why is 4th order distortion more pleasant than 3rd order?
I do not think so, I think the problem is the presence of high order components of distortion and not of odd order components.
bye
Federico
Re: PSE
Very well explained and an interesting point.
Personally, I'd speculate that the circuits will behave the same most, but not all, of the time.
Put say 5 watts at 1kHz through them and there will probably be no difference detectable by normal measurement or listening.
However, consider this point (for both PP and PSE).
Say the two valves are behaving 99.9% the same on a variable basis.
If the amp is passing 5 watts, then the difference will be at a level of 0.1% of signal; .05 watt.
This much distortion on the 5 watt fundamental is itself of no account. However, if the limit of resolution is set at .05 watt, this looks enough to limit the low level resolution of the amp.
Low level resolution gives good detail, good tonality (as harmonics are well resolved), and more of the 'you are there' illusion due to low level ambient information. Are these not the areas where SET can excel over PP?
All of which suggests that the slight differences between valves (PP or PSE) might set a low level of resolution that is higher than that of pure SE.
I rest my case. Well, sort of, while waiting to be shot down in flames. 🙂
dhaen said:
Very well explained and an interesting point.
Personally, I'd speculate that the circuits will behave the same most, but not all, of the time.
Put say 5 watts at 1kHz through them and there will probably be no difference detectable by normal measurement or listening.
However, consider this point (for both PP and PSE).
Say the two valves are behaving 99.9% the same on a variable basis.
If the amp is passing 5 watts, then the difference will be at a level of 0.1% of signal; .05 watt.
This much distortion on the 5 watt fundamental is itself of no account. However, if the limit of resolution is set at .05 watt, this looks enough to limit the low level resolution of the amp.
Low level resolution gives good detail, good tonality (as harmonics are well resolved), and more of the 'you are there' illusion due to low level ambient information. Are these not the areas where SET can excel over PP?
All of which suggests that the slight differences between valves (PP or PSE) might set a low level of resolution that is higher than that of pure SE.
I rest my case. Well, sort of, while waiting to be shot down in flames. 🙂
Hi Mike,
This is a very old thread, and you are the first poster to get my point: That if there are limiting factors to PSE, then they should apply also to PP.
How about splitting some hairs:
What is SE?
Is a dual plate 2A3 really SE or PSE?
What about grid geometry errors in the same valve?
Could it be that grid geometry errors are the reason people claim that one valve sound better than another, when their DC characteristics are the same?
What I'm saying is: Why can such a dog's dinner topology, ie SE, sound so good? I don't mean the 2A3 or 300B run near limits with lots of 2H colouration. I mean a big valve run at 1/50th or 1/100th of it's power. These do sound much cleaner and better than PP.
This is a very old thread, and you are the first poster to get my point: That if there are limiting factors to PSE, then they should apply also to PP.
How about splitting some hairs:
What is SE?
Is a dual plate 2A3 really SE or PSE?
What about grid geometry errors in the same valve?
Could it be that grid geometry errors are the reason people claim that one valve sound better than another, when their DC characteristics are the same?
What I'm saying is: Why can such a dog's dinner topology, ie SE, sound so good? I don't mean the 2A3 or 300B run near limits with lots of 2H colouration. I mean a big valve run at 1/50th or 1/100th of it's power. These do sound much cleaner and better than PP.
Hi,
Technically the dual anode 2A3 is PSE and sounds like it too.
That's certainly one of the possibilities, IMO.
It's also often so that a single PP sounds better than PPP all else being (more or less) equal.
Cheers,😉
Technically the dual anode 2A3 is PSE and sounds like it too.
That's certainly one of the possibilities, IMO.
It's also often so that a single PP sounds better than PPP all else being (more or less) equal.
Cheers,😉
Kuei Yang Wang said:
Not to split hairs here TL, but I remember you writing that soundstaging should not concern us because it is false.
Grid geometry errors will result evident in the Ip-Vpk plate curves, expecially in the strong negative biased region (low current).
The same happens if one parallel more different tubes: the
lower curves are more distorted, a little like a variable mu
tube.
Federico
Federico,
I was indeed thinking along the lines of a varable-mu valve's grid.
Yes, you are right. It must show in the curves.
Oh well, it was just an idea...
I was indeed thinking along the lines of a varable-mu valve's grid.
Yes, you are right. It must show in the curves.
Oh well, it was just an idea...
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