and roundwound fret-eating (or fingerboard) bass strings from Rotosound, La Bella, etc. changed the balance of the bass guitar higher harmonics - I don't think there's a lot of fundamental in a bass viola's low E - that new BOFU with higher qts sounds like it might make an ok guitar speaker in multiples - although I'll probably not live a lot more years, I hate foam surrounds in general - but ok on cheap stuff - btw - I'm not a fan of 5-string bass guitars.
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- a kot of jazz, blues, and r&b groove and solo lines were successfully executed and recorded with "only" 4 strings whether on bass viola or electric bass guitar. The extra fingerboard width can be unconfortable - E and below on the B string may not fit certain genre to any musical benefit. I've only owned two 5-string electric bass guitars and just one currently - perhaps its my limited talent but don't see the need for a low B string.
*fore head slap*
You're quite correct here. To clear up any confusion (as he just did mine) these are the frequencies for guitar strings. Guitar music is frequently written shifted up an octave so it can be written on a single staff. It appears as though middle C is 5th string third fret, when it actually is second string first fret. As I can read notes, but not music well enough to play from paper, I have failed to notice I'm using one set of frequencies for building boxes and another for talking about playing guitar.
My sub has a tunable XO, 50 to 200 Hz. It doesn't start to emphasize bass (maybe more accurately, reject middle range) until < 100 Hz. From 100 to 200 it makes little difference in the music.
True. Though we may not hear the fundamental, we perceive it according to what the harmonics suggest. This is aptly named the "missing fundamental" effect. The more harmonics we hear the more we perceive what's missing. Of course few speakers can reproduce the ~31 Hz of a 5 string bass's low B. But the closer they can get, the more harmonics we get. The bass cabs I've looked at recently typically go down to 40 to 50 Hz, some to 35, but I doubt they do so at a level anywhere near that of 80 to 100 Hz.
Hartke — 410XL
Amazing;
I play a 5 string, makes it really nice for those drop D tunes that people like Johnny Cash recorded at without having to worry about hand placement.
I have been hearing that we don't hear the fundamental claim for years. Always comes from 4 string bass players, never from audio people.
If that was true then there would be no need for a bass rig that gets down to 30hz. Wouldn't be a need for any speaker larger then a 8 inch now would there?
Why build any speakers that can get below 100hz?
Amazing;
I play a 5 string, makes it really nice for those drop D tunes that people like Johnny Cash recorded at without having to worry about hand placement.
I have been hearing that we don't hear the fundamental claim for years. Always comes from 4 string bass players, never from audio people.
If that was true then there would be no need for a bass rig that gets down to 30hz. Wouldn't be a need for any speaker larger then a 8 inch now would there?
Why build any speakers that can get below 100hz?
so in general, this "de-tuned" business refers to cabinets whose back wave is allowed to be emitted somewhere on the cabinet with tuning upwards of driver free air resonance??? - or does the technique also include leaky and low tuned variants? without impedance plots, tuning is rather vague - the example and comments on The Telecaster forum was interesting.
how does one best apply such a thing for a musical instrument cabinet vs reflex, sealed and tapped horn? lets say one wants a de-tuned cabinet for electric bass guitar - how does one go about a practical design?
re: JC - I don't see a Hartke 4-10 in this studio - is it ~F10 @30? - I'm an old dude so not familiar with the last of JC
how does one best apply such a thing for a musical instrument cabinet vs reflex, sealed and tapped horn? lets say one wants a de-tuned cabinet for electric bass guitar - how does one go about a practical design?
re: JC - I don't see a Hartke 4-10 in this studio - is it ~F10 @30? - I'm an old dude so not familiar with the last of JC
An externally hosted image should be here but it was not working when we last tested it.
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30Hz - yes or no? 30hz - djk - Speaker Asylum
the Hartke appears to have just over 1 cubic foot per 10" considering its external dimensions
the Hartke appears to have just over 1 cubic foot per 10" considering its external dimensions
According to Robertson/Dadson we can definitely hear 30 Hz and lower but it needs definitely more power than - say - 60 Hz in order to be audible.
For the ear it is always nice to have low bass extension - altough your back may not like it unless you belong to the lucky ones wo have roadies.
Regards
Charles
- who also thinks 5 string basses are useles and therefore plays 6, 7 and 8 string basses.....
For the ear it is always nice to have low bass extension - altough your back may not like it unless you belong to the lucky ones wo have roadies.
Regards
Charles
- who also thinks 5 string basses are useles and therefore plays 6, 7 and 8 string basses.....
- hi Charles - - the upper strings must give you leeway for expression for soloing. - lets say one were playing a simple I IV V - - in roughly the style of Ray Brown on Pablo's "Basie Jam" "Doubling Blues" (with Irving Ashby, Louis Bellson, ..) then the 4 sting bass would cover the full range - same for many blues grooves - same for Willie Dixon, Motown session players. Same for Gary Karr. Are some of your basses fretless? A solid 30Hz would be audbile - electric bass fundamentals are weaker in that range than the overtones. The only 5 in my pile is a Vaccaro. - 15 of my 4-string are Kramer aluminum - lol. BEST, Freddy
I came to the missing fundamental effect because I specialized in auditory stimuli and neural response in order to conduct brain imaging studies. I didn't use it directly, but in learning about it I found I had to use non-harmonic tones when I gave them a series of BEEPs with 10% randomly replaced with BOOPs. Flatted fifths gave the best response for me, as I was testing the difference detector that recognizes something is different before it comes to consciousness.
The more harmonics we get that are closer to the low fundamental, the more obvious the effect. Besides, some the fundamental is usually there but requires boosting when the system isn't capable of producing it well. The harmonic signals actually do boost the fundamental's.
https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/59856537/harmonic_waveform.gif
Keep in mind the odd numbered harmonics are the factional frequencies that
represent notes other than the fundamental. The third harmonic (f = 2/3 L) is a fifth (7th and 19th fret; L = 3/2 f). These matter too. Guitar pickups are often placed according to harmonics just for this reason:
https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/59856537/guitarpickupsandharmonics3.jpg
The auditory system AND the equipment are both tuned to fill in missing frequencies.
Whether it can't do 30 Hz, or can very poorly, 60 Hz + 120 Hz + 180 Hz + 240 Hz (harmonics 2 through 5) does a good job when both systems work at it.
Just for giggles I put together this 10 second MP3. The left channel is a pure 440 Hz sine. The right channel is only harmonics 2 through 5 combined, also sines, adjusted to the same volume. Slide back and forth on a balance control, or use earphones but one side at a time. You'll notice the buzz resulting from constructive and destructive interference. It makes it a little difficult to compare directly, but you can hear a little of the pitch of the left channel alone, in the right channel alone.
https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/59856537/LARH5.mp3
The more fundamentals you add, and the larger the local environment (baffle size, spacing, reflections, etc), the more the various frequencies' waveforms smear out and lose that buzzy quality.
Kramers are aluminum necks, but Vaccaros are all aluminum, yes?
If you can manage to get the B to respond well enough tuned tune to a A, you'll get
AEADG. The upper four still play as before, you'll get a drop A for the lowest string, but you'll also be able to thumb the first three together to get almost a chord (first, fifth and octave; like a guitar "power chord"). You can get some slammin blues going thumbing at 7th, 5th and 3rd frets, and sliding 3rd to 4th is like an essential blues sound. Well, I reckon you can do the same with the B, fretting it two frets lower than the E and A, but you lose open and first fret. I tune my resonator to DADGCF, so I can thumb the lower three and play the upper four (the D string serving double duty here) like normal, all dropped a note (DGCF = EADG - 2 steps). Henry "Rufe" Johnson used it.
For the first part, yes, that's essentially the concept. More rear opening than front opening. Reflecting to the the front includes this, so it's less than a horn but more than a wall (or corner would be better, no?). No, leaky and low tuned aren't the same. The same lack of tuning on an open back cab or combo has to be maintained.
For the second part, I don't know the correct answer to that question. Yet. As you know I prefer sawdust over sermonizing, and the former is a slow, stepwise process. However, the basics of the design make it fairly simple to acheive.
For my next project I'm going to build a cabinet to serve as a frontwards reflector for a pair on Fender Frontman 65R's. One of the amps is out, and rather than fix it I'm wiring one amp to both speakers and building sort of a mini-stack. I'll build a trapezoidal open face and top cab for them to sit in, with the space behind them greater in volume than that of the insides of the cabs, and with an opening on either side greater than the area of the openings of the backs. The "walls" will then come out at a 45 degree angle. The result will be a rear opening, expanding out to a frontwards reflected opening much larger than the area of the baffled two 12" drivers. I figure the open top will prevent any resonance effects, and if I'm going to lose some to free air without it getting focused forwards, I'd prefer it go straight up and expand out rather than bounce off the back of a stage. The hornishness is not tuned at all, just expanding. Some designs have been cabinets within cabinets, all rectangular, but it seems mostly for cosmetics. But I'm building for effect, not furniture.
Of course you don't see a Hartke in that picture as they were not made back then. That said, Johnny Cash had to have played some drop D music because if your covering his bass lines properly you need a D lower then the E on a standard 4 string bass. That was the #1 reason I bought a 5 string. To get away from the hipshots and drop D tunings.
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[/QUOTE]I'm not going to waste any more time here but I do build single 10" bass rigs that play the B string of a 5 string bass with authority. My Hartke 3500 head with my 4-10 cab is usually set as solid state pre amp on 2 main amp on 2, EQ off and tube driver off.
When using the single 10 everything is the same except amp volume is at 4.
Keep playing
DrMcclaimphd I'll give your links a listen later Thanks
When using the single 10 everything is the same except amp volume is at 4.
Keep playing
DrMcclaimphd I'll give your links a listen later Thanks
JC's "Hey, Porter" was in drop D.
And I believe Freddi's first comment was a tongue in cheek way of inserting a picture of a Karlson cabinet in use. "Oh look! No Hartkes, but what's that thing with the weird opening?!" I may be wrong, but I'd have done it. Heck, maybe I just will.
Here's half above, frontal and half below views of a double barreled sonic cannon with booster module.
https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/59856537/k2s1.jpg
https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/59856537/k2s2.jpg
https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/59856537/k2s3.jpg
The barrels are 4" K-tubes Sony neo/poly drivers 60 to 4000 Hz. The booster is a 70 watt 6" sub in a ported cab. As you can see, it's a Craftsman 6.75 horsepower pull start subwoofer.
https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/59856537/k2s4.jpg
ONE pull start no less. Can't be wasting time on stage trying to fire up your subs.
Kevin O'Connor is one who suggests fitting just 2 drivers to a quad box etc.
He uses the term "loose tuned" rather than "de-tuned" or" un tuned" and claims it gives a mild fairly broad bass boost.
I've tried this out twice.
I bought 4 off 10" P-Audio Guitar Speakers to fix up a blown sealed quad box. Ended up fitting just 2 drivers and leaving the other 2 driver holes open. I was very happy with the result - used it on a 35W Trainwreck Express Clone with cathode biased 6CA7s .
I used the recommend HiFi H x W x D dimmension ratios to design a box for 2 x 12" speakers and then just fitted 1 off P12B Alnico Weber. Use that with a full power scaled London Power "Standard" I built with a quad of vintage 6V6G as the outputs. That was stunning.
Very happy with both.
Cheers,
Ian
He uses the term "loose tuned" rather than "de-tuned" or" un tuned" and claims it gives a mild fairly broad bass boost.
I've tried this out twice.
I bought 4 off 10" P-Audio Guitar Speakers to fix up a blown sealed quad box. Ended up fitting just 2 drivers and leaving the other 2 driver holes open. I was very happy with the result - used it on a 35W Trainwreck Express Clone with cathode biased 6CA7s .
I used the recommend HiFi H x W x D dimmension ratios to design a box for 2 x 12" speakers and then just fitted 1 off P12B Alnico Weber. Use that with a full power scaled London Power "Standard" I built with a quad of vintage 6V6G as the outputs. That was stunning.
Very happy with both.
Cheers,
Ian
Freddi:
The thing about 6 to 8 string basses only was a bit of a mean joke. It is actually true that I don't own a five string one because I couldn't decide wheter I want to use a five string with a high C or a low B so I went for a six sring with both !
I then became addicted to exteneded range basses and had one built by Odd Helge Listerud. That one is eight-stringed and fretless. It is a beautyful instrument with very good playability desoute its wide neck.
My newest one is an Ibanez BTB7.
But I do of course also play four string basses. Both of these date back to the beginning of the eighties. One is an Aria Pro II fretless and the other one is also a metal-neck Kramer (DMZ 6000B). The latter is still may favourite for slapping.
Beacuse of my "sausage fingers" it is quite difficult to slap on a usual 6 string bass. I recently tried the "Pattitucci model" by Yamaha and that is one that would work well for slapping due to its string spacing (apart from being a very fine instrument in every aspect).
Regards
Charles
The thing about 6 to 8 string basses only was a bit of a mean joke. It is actually true that I don't own a five string one because I couldn't decide wheter I want to use a five string with a high C or a low B so I went for a six sring with both !
I then became addicted to exteneded range basses and had one built by Odd Helge Listerud. That one is eight-stringed and fretless. It is a beautyful instrument with very good playability desoute its wide neck.
My newest one is an Ibanez BTB7.
But I do of course also play four string basses. Both of these date back to the beginning of the eighties. One is an Aria Pro II fretless and the other one is also a metal-neck Kramer (DMZ 6000B). The latter is still may favourite for slapping.
Beacuse of my "sausage fingers" it is quite difficult to slap on a usual 6 string bass. I recently tried the "Pattitucci model" by Yamaha and that is one that would work well for slapping due to its string spacing (apart from being a very fine instrument in every aspect).
Regards
Charles
- Charles - I never connected to the slapped sound - although Willie Dixon's sound would catch my fancy
here's the only 5-string I currently own - my hands are numb and chest sore anymore so there's not much playing - my kid has borrowed and perhaps liquidated 5 or 6 of my metalnecks
I really like the double-p pickup Kramer metalneck
the little red bass on the left is really "snappy" - seemingly moreso than the heavier Kramers
here's the only 5-string I currently own - my hands are numb and chest sore anymore so there's not much playing - my kid has borrowed and perhaps liquidated 5 or 6 of my metalnecks
An externally hosted image should be here but it was not working when we last tested it.
I really like the double-p pickup Kramer metalneck
An externally hosted image should be here but it was not working when we last tested it.
the little red bass on the left is really "snappy" - seemingly moreso than the heavier Kramers
An externally hosted image should be here but it was not working when we last tested it.
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