Lourens said:
Well, my (modified) NOS DAC is far superior to ML360S as well. I wouldn't mind trying dCS to see how it would compare. Which model would be recommended with the best price/performance ratio?
Unmodified LM37 is simply a very bad transport, so your ears were probably right. And there is no equipment that can't be further improved (to personal taste), but it takes a bit more effort than just swapping few caps.
Comparable FKs are about 50% the price of N type caps. When properly applied, N type are the best sounding caps in BG line.
If I didn't change few caps in my ML37 tansport i would have sold it long ago. Now, after modifications, this is the best transport I ever had. [/B][/QUOTE]
Don't know where you get your Ns from. I disagree. FKs are for polarised operation and to my ears they are better. There is a lot of hype about Ns and NXs.
Peter, I started using Black Gates back in the 80s before anyone mentioned them.
If I didn't change few caps in my ML37 tansport i would have sold it long ago. Now, after modifications, this is the best transport I ever had. [/B][/QUOTE]
Don't know where you get your Ns from. I disagree. FKs are for polarised operation and to my ears they are better. There is a lot of hype about Ns and NXs.
Peter, I started using Black Gates back in the 80s before anyone mentioned them.
Fully agree. Let me put it this way: If I ran dCS, and my engineer had designed a great DAC that would change it sound by just swapping a couple of cap brands, that design engineer would be looking for another job real fast!
Jan Didden [/B][/QUOTE]
dCS technicians assembly their products in an open room connected to a spectrum analyser and a ridiculous audio set up where you will be lucky to hear any subtlety in any music!. Yes, do not touch the ringdac but there is nothing wrong with 'voicing' the analogue stages. I don't know how they listen afterwards but they do it on dealer feedback themselves.
I actually had the software in the 954 updated and hated it; they had elevated the treble somehow. Went back to my 'old' version. They muttered something about 'incompatibility' with my system.
From the pictures for the Delius, I suspect that the output stages msy be part opamp. The 0.47 MKP may be coupling caps also and I would change them for better sounding ones. But as I said before, one must trace the circuit and find out how it works in overall terms first.
Norte: MKPs have that 'thin' sound and slightly abrasive top.
Jan Didden [/B][/QUOTE]
dCS technicians assembly their products in an open room connected to a spectrum analyser and a ridiculous audio set up where you will be lucky to hear any subtlety in any music!. Yes, do not touch the ringdac but there is nothing wrong with 'voicing' the analogue stages. I don't know how they listen afterwards but they do it on dealer feedback themselves.
I actually had the software in the 954 updated and hated it; they had elevated the treble somehow. Went back to my 'old' version. They muttered something about 'incompatibility' with my system.
From the pictures for the Delius, I suspect that the output stages msy be part opamp. The 0.47 MKP may be coupling caps also and I would change them for better sounding ones. But as I said before, one must trace the circuit and find out how it works in overall terms first.
Norte: MKPs have that 'thin' sound and slightly abrasive top.
Re: Re: Re: Re: Good Clock?
Branded 'Golledge'. Look at the picture on the left, two of those peaking underneath the upper board. More I don't know. I could post a more detailed picture of them if you wish (will take time to trim them).
Only once my Delius was opened, about a year ago (hence these pictures), not by me of course(too much respect...) but by a trusted guru in Eindhoven, and only to verify things were ok 🙂 [/B][/QUOTE]
I spoke to Golledge about their XOs. They can't produce any jitter data.
dCS units benefit from an external clock and my system sounds better with one, even though it is not their own, in my case a Swissonic. They also benefit greatly from cabling even though the waveforms may look impeccable on a 400MHz TEK
Branded 'Golledge'. Look at the picture on the left, two of those peaking underneath the upper board. More I don't know. I could post a more detailed picture of them if you wish (will take time to trim them).
Only once my Delius was opened, about a year ago (hence these pictures), not by me of course(too much respect...) but by a trusted guru in Eindhoven, and only to verify things were ok 🙂 [/B][/QUOTE]
I spoke to Golledge about their XOs. They can't produce any jitter data.
dCS units benefit from an external clock and my system sounds better with one, even though it is not their own, in my case a Swissonic. They also benefit greatly from cabling even though the waveforms may look impeccable on a 400MHz TEK
fmak said:
Maybe that's where you remember your prices from. I tried few FK caps, but they seemed awfully colored.
N types don't fit any application, but when they fit, it's hard to improve upon. NX are inferior to N. Don't try to classify them as comparable.
Maybe that's where you remember your prices from. I tried few FK caps, but they seemed awfully colored.
N types don't fit any application, but when they fit, it's hard to improve upon. NX are inferior to N. Don't try to classify them as comparable. [/B][/QUOTE]
No I buy them when there is a sale, sometimes from Partsconnexion. Recent;y only 4 months ago
FKs need breakin time - longer than Ns. If you don't use them extensively, how do you know? I use both FKs and Ns regularly.
Talk about clourations, how about non OS dacs?
🙂
N types don't fit any application, but when they fit, it's hard to improve upon. NX are inferior to N. Don't try to classify them as comparable. [/B][/QUOTE]
No I buy them when there is a sale, sometimes from Partsconnexion. Recent;y only 4 months ago
FKs need breakin time - longer than Ns. If you don't use them extensively, how do you know? I use both FKs and Ns regularly.
Talk about clourations, how about non OS dacs?
🙂
Lourens said:
You are not fully exploiting the Delius until you upsample with a Purcell or 972/974, the latter being much better.
Upsample to 24/176.4/192, slave the dac to the upsampler, clock the upsampler and you are talking about real differences. You can also exploit DSD upsampling
I listened to the Vedi/purcell/Elgar kombo once, and found that i liked the sound better with uppsampling turned off. I find that i normally like the sound better when not uppsampled with most players/DAC's. The uppsampling seems to add some fake space and "greatness" to the sound.
Best regards.
Best regards.
timcatn said:
There we are; our perceptions are different. I like the much closer resemblance to analog without noise of upsampling both f and bit depth. I have never liked 16/44.1 in any system. No matter how 'good' (expensive) CDs are simply too 1-D and coarse at hf for me. Why do you say the space and greatness are fake. Upsampling lowers the noise floor significantly and pushes all the phase changes at 20 kHz much further up the f range.
fmak said:
That sound comes from the output signal. If swapping a couple of caps in the supply would change the sound, that would be measureable, you know, PSRR, ripple feedthrough, that sort of thing. It is IMPOSSIBLE to have different sound without different output electrical signal.
And don't tell me that that "open room" prevent them from hearing anything, but any guy that walks into this forum of course has a very optimised and ideal listening room. Hah!
I stay with my decision: that engineer is on the road fast! 😡
Jan Didden
fmak said:
I call it fake because i feel like everything is just smeared out over a larger stage. The uppsampling DOES give a greater 3D image but i feel its just stretched, not really bigger. I'm not sure how to exactly explain this, but think of adding a soft cosy filter to the sound.
I fully aggree that Analog is the way to go. But i dont have the money for it 🙁
Best regards
janneman said:
Have you been to dCS or listened to one?
Those in the audio industry will tell you that they do 'voice' their components with caps and Rs.
For the reord I am an Engineer and also qualified in acoustics where human perceptions are subjective and can onlt be quantified by reactions, not by equations.
fmak said:
Hi fmak,
...realizing of course that today's "reaction" to something can be quite different to tomorrows reaction to the same thing, which is why we usually call this type of "proof" anecdotal rather than factual.
Equations are the same today and tomorrow with the same input, therefore we usually call them factual rather than anecdotal. .😉
But you as an engineer of course are fully aware of this....
Jan Didden
fmak said:
If you want to exploit full potential of N caps, always use them in much smaller values than with regular caps. When I insert them in a circuit, the values are usually 3-10 times smaller of the caps I'm replacing. Also, for N type, proper orientation is critical. If someone gets "a distinct sense of veiling and a lack of ultimate clarity" it's usually because the rest of the circuit is not matched to BG (not the other way). And since those caps "are undoubtedly capable of delivering a sound that would be difficult to achieve through other means" that's the extra effort one needs to make.
I never use multiple bypasses, they screw up the sound in a similar way as upsampling does (going by description in previous post)😉 So it's always a single, properly chosen (value and type) cap.
Talking about colorations of NOS DAC, it is actually rather low. I bought ML360S just for the purpose of comparing those colorations and I can tell you that tonally both DACs are very close. The Levinson sadly does not have any life within, so I'm thinking about moving to a next contender now. The Delius might be an interesting choice. Would you mind suggesting a particular model? The Audiogon seem to offer steady selection of those units.
Petter.
Since i work part time at a hifistore in Norway. (in addition to studying) i shall be carefull with product recomandations, but.
I have in my system tried the McIntosh MCD/MDA1000 combo. IMO thats a superior system to that of the Verdi/Elgar/Purcell. It sounds much more lifelike. And it ist the closest i have come to analog reprodution with digital components. However you are not likely to stumble across a MDA1000 for the same price as you can get a used Delius. Another good choice, wich i havent tried personally is the Emm Labs combo.
What does your system consist of Petter?
Best regards
Since i work part time at a hifistore in Norway. (in addition to studying) i shall be carefull with product recomandations, but.
I have in my system tried the McIntosh MCD/MDA1000 combo. IMO thats a superior system to that of the Verdi/Elgar/Purcell. It sounds much more lifelike. And it ist the closest i have come to analog reprodution with digital components. However you are not likely to stumble across a MDA1000 for the same price as you can get a used Delius. Another good choice, wich i havent tried personally is the Emm Labs combo.
What does your system consist of Petter?
Best regards
I came to the point where money is not an issue when it comes to a digital source equipment (of course sourced on a used market only). I'm currently trying to get CEC TL0, but whenever they appear on Agon, they dissappear fast. My current transport of choice is (modified) ML37. I find it much better now, than ML31.5 which I also have.
As to the DAC, I'm rather reluctant of getting into all those famous hi end units. Romy the Cat says that he tried them all, and Bidat is still the best.
I like my NOS DAC a lot and I'm not really tempted into upgrading. It satisfies my creaving for liveliness and immediacy, and coloration is not really a problem. While other DACs may seem more "refined", the refinement is usually artificial and not satsfing in the long run. I bought Levinson ML360s mostly out of curiosity and during the year I own it I may had it connected in a system for 10 hours at most.
Having modyfing the transport with a quite a success, I was entertaining the idea about doing some changes in a DAC as well, but the complexity of the circuit, and too many variables make it rather discouraging. I simply don't think the time invested in such complex modification will be trully rewarding, besides modified unit may actually loose the resell value, and I will surely will be selling that unit soon.
I wouldn't mind acquiring truly remarkable DAC, but I don't want an artificial smoothness or "veiled" or hypnotising sound, I need "flesh and blood" 🙂
The rest of the system comprises of Integrated Patek amp with S&B 102 TVC stage, all electronic placed in a custom rack on an air suspension table. The speakers are presently FAL/Aurum Canus ribbons built in into a separating wall, soon to be replaced by Fertins.
I rearanged the rack few days ago, and placing all components on air suspension table brought quite a big improvement. That, together with rearranging AC connection (choosing the correct side of dual 115V rails and connecting all equipment from the same point of distribution) was most rewarding mod I did recently in that secondary system.
PS: The ML360 panel is for decorative purposes only, it covers chassis free NOS DAC that sits behind 😉
As to the DAC, I'm rather reluctant of getting into all those famous hi end units. Romy the Cat says that he tried them all, and Bidat is still the best.
I like my NOS DAC a lot and I'm not really tempted into upgrading. It satisfies my creaving for liveliness and immediacy, and coloration is not really a problem. While other DACs may seem more "refined", the refinement is usually artificial and not satsfing in the long run. I bought Levinson ML360s mostly out of curiosity and during the year I own it I may had it connected in a system for 10 hours at most.
Having modyfing the transport with a quite a success, I was entertaining the idea about doing some changes in a DAC as well, but the complexity of the circuit, and too many variables make it rather discouraging. I simply don't think the time invested in such complex modification will be trully rewarding, besides modified unit may actually loose the resell value, and I will surely will be selling that unit soon.
I wouldn't mind acquiring truly remarkable DAC, but I don't want an artificial smoothness or "veiled" or hypnotising sound, I need "flesh and blood" 🙂
The rest of the system comprises of Integrated Patek amp with S&B 102 TVC stage, all electronic placed in a custom rack on an air suspension table. The speakers are presently FAL/Aurum Canus ribbons built in into a separating wall, soon to be replaced by Fertins.
I rearanged the rack few days ago, and placing all components on air suspension table brought quite a big improvement. That, together with rearranging AC connection (choosing the correct side of dual 115V rails and connecting all equipment from the same point of distribution) was most rewarding mod I did recently in that secondary system.
PS: The ML360 panel is for decorative purposes only, it covers chassis free NOS DAC that sits behind 😉
Attachments
I'm using FAL drivers presently: http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=69176&highlight=
but soon will be switching to Fertins, that I bought last year, but still didn't have the time to install. The drivers are mounted into a wall separating two rooms.
but soon will be switching to Fertins, that I bought last year, but still didn't have the time to install. The drivers are mounted into a wall separating two rooms.
janneman said:
If today's reactions are to be valid, then tomorrw's must support it. This is why human reaction to noise and smell are gauged by panels and rated on some scale.
Curves such as the equal loudness curves are meaningless in hifi as they represent reaction to sine waves which annoy most people. Hence engineers must understand what they are doing before making black and white judgements.
Equations can be very wrong as they carry assumptions which may not be valid in the circumstances under which they are often used.
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