@Nicmac
@Brianco
@Spartacus
@Curly Woods
@No one else
Hello you guys!
I think we now´ve come to the point, where everybody knows where everybody stands.
Both Hurtig and I have no admiration for design done like i.e. the Buffalo, and this you cannot change, regardles of your arguments.
We tried out huge quantities of op-amps with different supplies, probably even more than TPA ever did.
We payed both economically and temporally the price for this experience, and we found no satisfaction at all.
Obviously none of you are experienced audio engineers, who by sight can judge if something special is in your hands, but that is fine to me.
You don´t need to be.
But if you were, a bare look at the layout of the board of our DAC would make you take a deep breath.
So my avice for you should be then that: just a bit more open eyes, and just a bit more silence, and just a bit more curiossity towards the schematics of the discrete DAC design would maybe in due time enlighten you sufficiently to judge the projects objectively.
And now I´ve rally tried to withhold it, but it is impossible for me to restrict myself, I am really sorry, but here it comes anyways: The digilog is a masterpiece.
I think Ill have to take some punches for that.
@Brianco
@Spartacus
@Curly Woods
@No one else
Hello you guys!
I think we now´ve come to the point, where everybody knows where everybody stands.
Both Hurtig and I have no admiration for design done like i.e. the Buffalo, and this you cannot change, regardles of your arguments.
We tried out huge quantities of op-amps with different supplies, probably even more than TPA ever did.
We payed both economically and temporally the price for this experience, and we found no satisfaction at all.
Obviously none of you are experienced audio engineers, who by sight can judge if something special is in your hands, but that is fine to me.
You don´t need to be.
But if you were, a bare look at the layout of the board of our DAC would make you take a deep breath.
So my avice for you should be then that: just a bit more open eyes, and just a bit more silence, and just a bit more curiossity towards the schematics of the discrete DAC design would maybe in due time enlighten you sufficiently to judge the projects objectively.
And now I´ve rally tried to withhold it, but it is impossible for me to restrict myself, I am really sorry, but here it comes anyways: The digilog is a masterpiece.
I think Ill have to take some punches for that.
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Show me a product, that no one likes. You can always find people that likes a given product. And DIY'ers tend to be more entusiastic when describing things they assembled themself. If you check the forum, you will find VERY few people telling how bad their new XX performs.
A thing that may indicate how good the TPA implementation is, is the nmumber of posts in the Buffalo tweaking thread. I would not expect that much tweaking on a product that is already trimmed into perfection 😀
Also... can a moderator please deal with the contentious positive posting of about TPA elsewhere?
Get my point... Just because I and others do not like TPA, doesn't make it less "legal", than people who always talks good about. If you like things that way, I guess you would fit perfect into some of the old regimes in the east.... 🙄
A forum should be based on democracy.
I really do not understand you!! This is a DIY forum, and we did a DIY project. We uploaded complete schematic, so that any DIY'er can build a copy and enjoy a DAC that is actually something special, and not just another mainstream app.note-like implementation.
What more do you expect on a DIY forum??
Why don't you spend your time posting against those commercial users, trying to promote their commercial product on a DIY site, without any intention to show us the schematics????
This is just hippen marketing.
Sorry, but I may have to repeat myself.
Is this a DIY forum, or a free advertising forum for commercial products????????
We are DIY'ers like many of the other people in here, and I feel it's a bit wrong, that commercial manufacturers can use the forum to promote their commercial products.
We decided to make the absolute best DAC ever seen.
The main difference between us an many other DIY'ers are, that we may have a background making it possible for us to do a DIY project, on a high level.
At the engineerig school, I graduated with a special in "Digital to Analog conversion for Audio".
And then we decided to make the design 100% free to DIY'ers, by making the schematics public. Is this so bad???
Also, my experience in electronic design for audio, enables me to quite fast see how mucg energy a designer has put into his design. In my eyes, the TPA implementation is very quick done. And since I believe that audio is about "High Fidelity", I think that people should know that, and not just the regular storytelling.... "Our op-amp design is better than other op-amp designs... bla bla bla" 😛
If TPA really did spend a long time, they must have a big box of PCB's, of all the prototypes... And to show their big effort, I think they should show some of it 🙂
I still think, that the first PCB without errors, is the one launched for production, leaving any kind of tuning to the buyer. But please TPA... Prome me wrong
Sorry, but I may have to repeat myself.
Is this a DIY forum, or a free advertising forum for commercial products????????
We are DIY'ers like many of the other people in here, and I feel it's a bit wrong, that commercial manufacturers can use the forum to promote their commercial products.
We decided to make the absolute best DAC ever seen.
The main difference between us an many other DIY'ers are, that we may have a background making it possible for us to do a DIY project, on a high level.
At the engineerig school, I graduated with a special in "Digital to Analog conversion for Audio".
And then we decided to make the design 100% free to DIY'ers, by making the schematics public. Is this so bad???
Also, my experience in electronic design for audio, enables me to quite fast see how mucg energy a designer has put into his design. In my eyes, the TPA implementation is very quick done. And since I believe that audio is about "High Fidelity", I think that people should know that, and not just the regular storytelling.... "Our op-amp design is better than other op-amp designs... bla bla bla" 😛
If TPA really did spend a long time, they must have a big box of PCB's, of all the prototypes... And to show their big effort, I think they should show some of it 🙂
I still think, that the first PCB without errors, is the one launched for production, leaving any kind of tuning to the buyer. But please TPA... Prome me wrong
What you say and what you have done are two totally different things. That is why people, like me, have a problem with the way that you both have conducted yourselves here.
You continually fail to grasp the point. This is not about opamps. It's about behaving like a pair of *******.
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Please explain... We entered a DIY forum to show our DIY project. TPA entered this DIY forum to promote their commercial product. Who of us are on the wrong track??
What is the difference between a TPA Buffalo and all the other mainstream DAC's, except for the DAC chip itself??
Almost the same op-amp implementation. Do you really believe that High End Audio design is just about using the newest DAC chip and keeping everything else the same??? 😀
If you think NO, I do not see what the TPA implementation has got t do with high end audio. If you think NO, we have to tell all the Audio guys to stop their storytelling about constant improvements during listening tests. Just use the newest chip, and you've got the best sounding gear 😀😀😀😀
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@ NicMac:
Please explain:
1) Do you think the purpose of a DIY forum is, that commercial people can get free advertising, or
2) Do you think the purpose of a DIY forum is to share DIY projects, by sharing schematics ++ and discussing technical solutions (Even if they indicate some commercial products to be less brilliant than indicated in the free adertising)?
Please explain:
1) Do you think the purpose of a DIY forum is, that commercial people can get free advertising, or
2) Do you think the purpose of a DIY forum is to share DIY projects, by sharing schematics ++ and discussing technical solutions (Even if they indicate some commercial products to be less brilliant than indicated in the free adertising)?
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That may well appear to be the case from the lofty position of one skilled in the art but from the POV of someone without the ability to build around any DAC chip, nevermind a LQFP one, I would imagine it represents pretty good value. One could pay a lot more and get a lot less. A run-of-the-mill DAIR/ASRC/DAC implementation with an equally unimaginative discrete output stage springs to mind.
You glorified your DAC in a thread asking for comparisons between Buffalo and other DAC's even if you have never heard Buffalo.
TPA never glorified their DAC in your thread.
Get the facts right.
TPA never glorified their DAC in your thread.
Get the facts right.
1) TPA has a vendors thread to do so (and as I understand its not for free).
2) Yes - I do believe so. However, I also believe that a vendor has the right to defend its product in a non-commercial thread among clients and potential client, especially when hijacked by you and KvK to promote your own doings.
OK, had you stuck to that and that alone you would not have caused the resentment which you have caused! we have heard a lot about your genius and your views of your product, your baby. (The old saying that "there is no interest like a vested interest" still seems to be true.) However I cannot find one single post from a third party who has heard your product. All we know is that 1)you dislike TWA products, 2)you dislike DACs with opamps in the output stage and 3) that you have some (quite good) ideas about cabinet construction.
Oh yes, 4) you have a very unacceptable manner in telling us how good you are at DAC design. Have you a stall at Magura's Danish DIY meeting??
What I and many others here object to is the fact that you knock down other peoples designs whilst telling us that yours is the best thing since bottled beer. That behavior demonstrates an unacceptably low ethical standing. The consequence has been that you are building upon the damage which you have done to yourselves by rousing up open hostility.
You ask why I do not attack other posters with a commercial interest. You will no doubt have noted that TPA, along with many other commercial posters, keep their product discussion to the commercial forum, not to the general discussion forums. (I also suspect that they pay a premium to the website.) Whatever the quality of their products I do know that the quality of their contributions here are of a very high standard. Follow their standards and you will be well accepted.
Probably the most hotly argued thread on the forum is the "Blowtorch" thread. You will read the views of many noted designers on that thread. Although there have been a few very hot words exchanged those who regularly post there may criticize or praise components they do not stoop to rubbishing the designs discussed. That is true professionalism from designers and also where you may learn a few lessons. Go to the Pass pages and learn how a leading edge design engineer who wishes to help the DIY community behaves. Also note how calm those pages are. Product or brand criticism is not a feature of this site. If that IS what you want then go elsewhere. If not, then become milder and less contentious. I agree that it is sometimes necessary to make ones point atwo or three times; to go beyond that should trll you that people for their own reasons do not accept what you have to say. Your product may well be all that you claim; if so it will be a shame if, having damaged it here, you bury it through continuing with your unethical slamming down of TPA and others who have products in the same marketplace.
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The main reason you did not see any posts from third party who have heard the DAC is, that this is a DIY project.
But this might change, since we agreed to provide the remaining 12 PCB's, to DIY'ers seeking the best.
1) I do not dislike TPA i general. But I belive that it's a total waste to use a high class DAC-chip, which I believe the ESS to be, and then just throw in the standard op-amp analog solution.
This may work for the gear-freaks, only interested in the most bit's and best specifications. But not for people seeking musical performance.
2) Jepp.. I dislike op-amps in high end. Elsewhere op-amps do fine. We even decided to make a op-amp based 32 bit DAC, for those more into specs.
3) Thanks!
4) Sorry to hear that. Guess the problem is, that we call them as we see them. I know that the audio business do not like this. It's pretty much the opposite of the audio storytelling.
I don' get it.. Why is this page not for criticism?? Is it really restricted to talking positive about everything? What the purpose of that?
I my mind, the strength of a forum like this is, that many people will be able to discuss which products are good and bad.
Well!
We do like our DAC a lot, and I am very fond of its sound.
I do not remember if I glorified it in the Buffalo thread, maybe you are right, and that of course is not good behaviour.
The intend was not to do so, as we do not have a lot of them, and there never will be. So we do not really need any glorification of it.
The fact that we never heard the Buffalo is absolutely true.
And we also do not intend to do so, unless somebody drops by with it, and makes us listen to it. And the reason for that is: op-amps always sounds the same.
Op-amps are cheap, reliable and most important completely predictable, in both electrical and sonic behavior, and that is the reason why so many loves them. They make analog design a peace of cake.
And that is also the main reason for me to hate them.
They spread mediocracy all around in audio incl. high end design.
I´ve come across only one design utilising op-amps that was actually well sounding. The design is around 35 years old and done by David Spiegel at AGI.
But he used op-amps in a completely different manner, he was indeed a shrewed engineer.
His way of designing with op-amps is not the one chosen by TPA.
This makes your argument about things we heard and didn´t invaluable.
My claim is, that you cannot make op-amps sound different, when used as typical buffers or gainstages.
Why will the sale of the 12 remaining DAC's have any impact on what has happened here? This will never reach the masses of users even if it is a great design. Your intent was never to sell these as a DIY offering or kit. So what ever it sounds like will always be with you both. Not many here have the knowledge to layout a PCB of this type and understand the reasoning why certain things have to be done for it to work properly.
If you are not trying to turn this into a possible commercial venture, why not share the art work files so that the masses can have a PCB built thru a group purchase and try out your DAC and then see what they think about your design? I think most here are more than capable of soldering 402 sized resistors, capacitors and /or small IC's to a board. If they can not, they screwed it up and that is on them, not you. It was their choice to attempt the build without first hand understanding of what they were up against. You stated that most would not be able to assemble your DAC, but that is your inability to understand that many of the people that are interested in a DAC project, have a good deal of experience working with small components already.
Your attitude has angered many, caused many to blow you off as "arrogant" or simply stop reading anything that you have posted after the trouble caused in the TPA forum earlier on with your bashing of their product. I probably have suffered a similar fate due to my own "personal beliefs". I hope that you both can back off, take a good look at how you entered this forum and rethink your attitudes. These forums are a great place to share ideas and to get to know audio enthusiasts from all over the world. I hope that you both will chose a new direction and find this as a place that is conducive to sharing constructive ideas and thoughts with many wonderful people.
Hi Curly
Great post. Really constructive approach.
No doubt, Kurt von Kubik and me has got a quite aggressive way of posting on the forum. And yes, I will take this into consideration.
But still I believe, that sometimes you must talk a little louder....
About making the PCB layout public.... We have already discussed this, but until now we decided not to. Mainly because we do not want to risk to many builders without the needed experience. This would end up in bad newer ending projects, and eventually this will point back to us, even though we said that only experienced DIY'ers should mount the PCB.
Also that's why we decided to make a simpler version, that more people will be able to assemble. Lately we decided that this should be based on a 32 bit DAC, most likely the newest Asahi Kasei 32 bit DAC, AK4399. http://www.asahi-kasei.co.jp/akm/en/product/ak4399/ak4399_f03e.pdf
SRC will most likely be CS8421. http://www.cirrus.com/en/pubs/proDatasheet/CS8421_F2.pdf
The analog stage will be based on an op-amp, but a little different setup than normal app.note-style analog stages. Also we will make it possible to run the analog stage 100% free of negative feedback, using AD844. Yeap, that's right. An op-amp running in non-feedback mode
The complete DAC will be in one single PCB, including ALL components. Even transformers will be on board.
The goal is to make a DAC that will kick some serious *** to other 32 bit DAC's. You know which one.... 😉
Also the price is under consideration. Our target is 299USD... But no guarantee! We might blow the budget a little. But anyway, we will go below the Buffalo, even though wemake a complete DAC, in which you do NOT need external transformers, regulators and so on.
And also... The design will most likely be 100% open source 😎 That's what DIY is all about!
Great post. Really constructive approach.
No doubt, Kurt von Kubik and me has got a quite aggressive way of posting on the forum. And yes, I will take this into consideration.
But still I believe, that sometimes you must talk a little louder....
About making the PCB layout public.... We have already discussed this, but until now we decided not to. Mainly because we do not want to risk to many builders without the needed experience. This would end up in bad newer ending projects, and eventually this will point back to us, even though we said that only experienced DIY'ers should mount the PCB.
Also that's why we decided to make a simpler version, that more people will be able to assemble. Lately we decided that this should be based on a 32 bit DAC, most likely the newest Asahi Kasei 32 bit DAC, AK4399. http://www.asahi-kasei.co.jp/akm/en/product/ak4399/ak4399_f03e.pdf
SRC will most likely be CS8421. http://www.cirrus.com/en/pubs/proDatasheet/CS8421_F2.pdf
The analog stage will be based on an op-amp, but a little different setup than normal app.note-style analog stages. Also we will make it possible to run the analog stage 100% free of negative feedback, using AD844. Yeap, that's right. An op-amp running in non-feedback mode
The complete DAC will be in one single PCB, including ALL components. Even transformers will be on board.
The goal is to make a DAC that will kick some serious *** to other 32 bit DAC's. You know which one.... 😉
Also the price is under consideration. Our target is 299USD... But no guarantee! We might blow the budget a little. But anyway, we will go below the Buffalo, even though wemake a complete DAC, in which you do NOT need external transformers, regulators and so on.
And also... The design will most likely be 100% open source 😎 That's what DIY is all about!
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