I just received my cryo treated 4.3 micron foil back from moray james for testing...
I took one of the 4.3's out of my LCY clones... and kept it int he other... set up a switch and let the tunes go
firstly I didn't notice much difference... however after listening to the cryo one for a minute or so I switched and immediately noticed that the voices were more muffled, and slightly more imprecise
I thought I was crazy cause the foil felt the EXACT same... so I did it with another song... rock this time... same thing... the highs also were more extended this time... with the same open sound and more precise quality
I'm really surprised it did anything needless to say... I was quite skeptical to begin with so to say I'm surprised is a very accurate statement
I took one of the 4.3's out of my LCY clones... and kept it int he other... set up a switch and let the tunes go
firstly I didn't notice much difference... however after listening to the cryo one for a minute or so I switched and immediately noticed that the voices were more muffled, and slightly more imprecise
I thought I was crazy cause the foil felt the EXACT same... so I did it with another song... rock this time... same thing... the highs also were more extended this time... with the same open sound and more precise quality
I'm really surprised it did anything needless to say... I was quite skeptical to begin with so to say I'm surprised is a very accurate statement
Cool really rules!!!!
Matthew: what can I say but cool really does rule! I have found with cryo work like this that the more skeptical a person is the bigger the shock when they experience first hand. What you heard happens to just about every thing you cryo treat. Just stop and think about that. It's a real mind messer. I would hazard a guess that your cryo treated ribbons will last longer than non treated ribbons as thier stretch characteristics will be improved as well as reduced resonances within the ribbon. I am glad that you did the experiment. Curious to know if a thicker cryo treated ribbon sounds better than a thinner non treated ribbon.
If you are a tube guy???? Do them tubes. Best regards Moray James.
Matthew: what can I say but cool really does rule! I have found with cryo work like this that the more skeptical a person is the bigger the shock when they experience first hand. What you heard happens to just about every thing you cryo treat. Just stop and think about that. It's a real mind messer. I would hazard a guess that your cryo treated ribbons will last longer than non treated ribbons as thier stretch characteristics will be improved as well as reduced resonances within the ribbon. I am glad that you did the experiment. Curious to know if a thicker cryo treated ribbon sounds better than a thinner non treated ribbon.
If you are a tube guy???? Do them tubes. Best regards Moray James.
Re: Cool really rules!!!!
I never could get the 5.8 to work right in this.... so I'm just using the 4.3....
I'm not a tube guy no.... however I agree with you here... I'm just amazed by what I heard... just didn't expect a difference but there was what I consider a quite significant one
moray james said:
I never could get the 5.8 to work right in this.... so I'm just using the 4.3....
I'm not a tube guy no.... however I agree with you here... I'm just amazed by what I heard... just didn't expect a difference but there was what I consider a quite significant one
This time of year is always quiet. Must be to do with summer or something, here in the northern hemisphere where most of our members live.
Audiophilenoob,
Are you corrugating your ribbons? I did not notice corrugtions in your early pictures. Corrugation can have a large effect on the sound and perhaps also explain some of the sonic differences between ribbon foils.
The forming of a ribbon is like Grandma's secret family recipe. You need to experiment until the sound is to your taste.
Are you corrugating your ribbons? I did not notice corrugtions in your early pictures. Corrugation can have a large effect on the sound and perhaps also explain some of the sonic differences between ribbon foils.
The forming of a ribbon is like Grandma's secret family recipe. You need to experiment until the sound is to your taste.
LineSource said:
corrugations is something I'm unable to fully accomplish with this very thin foil...
HOWEVER... I found a way to corrogate them quite well for my purposes .... nto a full corrugation mind you, but basically I hand roll the gears over it vs. through the annealing tool I made which cuts them
the sonic difference between the uncorogated and corrogated is minimal at best... in fact I can't hear it... so I didn't bother corrogating the cryo's
the gap is actually quite uniform from my sims... with only a 0.01T difference between the poles and the center of the gap... I'm unsure if this is audible... but the fully corrogated foil, 5.8 micron, that I ran through the annealer at one point was vastly inferior to the sound of the 4.3 uncorrogated... when I finally fixed the resonances with this foil it sounded quite bad on side by side tests...
they sound superior to the LCY's that's all I know.... and really all I care about at this point...
if I can come up with a way to properly anneal 4.3 foil I might try it... but given the 5.8 tests and the mostly annealing I did with hands and gears... I would say the sounds are inaudible... at least to me and my side by side tests
unfortunately audio is a world of compromise... but sadly this is the only compromise I made on the system... I just can't come up with a gear system that won't cut the ribbon...
strangely I have actually placed the uncorrogated cyro'd foil in both ribbons and they sound identical... so I'm unsure why corrogations would create a more uniform sound between ribbons
around a 1/8 mm gap between the poles and the foil... 🙂
any suggestions on annealing such thin foil would be great... I really can't think of anything though
also with the corrogated 5.8 micron.. to mount it with my clips I was unable to make it taunt enough for play without nearly flattening all the corrogations... you could still see them, but they weren't as raised as before
it is too "loose" and will sound terrible if it's not fairly taunt... this from my experience destroys the annealing.... at least most of the functionality
both the 4.3 foil I tried with corrogations and 5.8 foil with corrogations did NOT sound superior to withoiut corrogations... the 5.8 sounded worse... simply due to my tastes it seems...
because linesource made me paranoid 😛
I spent around 2 hrs today figured out a way to anneal the 4.3... and I finally did it
by sanding the edges of my plastic gears it worked... finally...
the sound... i well the same... but at least my mind is at ease now... they just sound fantastic and I couldn't be happier
I spent around 2 hrs today figured out a way to anneal the 4.3... and I finally did it
by sanding the edges of my plastic gears it worked... finally...
the sound... i well the same... but at least my mind is at ease now... they just sound fantastic and I couldn't be happier
Re: Cool really rules!!!!
Moray,
Have you got your own cyro facility or are you taking it over to Bill's to get done? (i have a tray of tubes awaiting processing)
dave
moray james said:
Moray,
Have you got your own cyro facility or are you taking it over to Bill's to get done? (i have a tray of tubes awaiting processing)
dave
Ribbon play...
Take a very clean pane of glass larger than your ribbon length.
Spray on a mist of water.
Gently lay ribbon on damp glass.
Use a very soft artist brush across the ribbon to remove wrinkles.
Let ribbon dry on glass 1-2 days.
Run ribbon very slowly thorough small diameter, rounded edge plastic gears. Large diameter gears may tear the ribbon. Should result in smooth looking ribbon.
==========
Option 1 Before corrugation...Work hardening.. Very gently roll the ribbon into a small cylinder(roll) on a small diameter tube several times in different directions and starting at different ends. Crinkling the foil also work hardens it. This creates a modest level of work hardening. Then use the damp glass plate to smooth out the wrinkles. Do not heat. Corrugate as an option.
Precipitation-hardening, heating an aluminum alloy and then rapidly cooling by quenching to increase strength and hardness, works with heat treatable alloys, but is not possible with pure aluminum.
May be worth experimenting on thin foils.
===================
Option 2 After the ribbon is corrugated. Anneal to soften by heating in 550-650 F oven for 20 minutes, then let slowly air dry.
Annealing is the term used for softening metal with heat. Non-heat treatable aluminum alloys are annealed by heating to 650 F and then simply allowing them to cool gradually. Some stress relief may occur as an added benefit.
Temperatures of 550F and higher will soften the material. At 650F these non-heat-treated alloys are completely softened (annealed).
Heat-treatable alloys are annealed by heating to 775F for 2-3 hours and cooling slowly to 500F before removing from oven
May be worth experimenting on thick foils.
Take a very clean pane of glass larger than your ribbon length.
Spray on a mist of water.
Gently lay ribbon on damp glass.
Use a very soft artist brush across the ribbon to remove wrinkles.
Let ribbon dry on glass 1-2 days.
Run ribbon very slowly thorough small diameter, rounded edge plastic gears. Large diameter gears may tear the ribbon. Should result in smooth looking ribbon.
==========
Option 1 Before corrugation...Work hardening.. Very gently roll the ribbon into a small cylinder(roll) on a small diameter tube several times in different directions and starting at different ends. Crinkling the foil also work hardens it. This creates a modest level of work hardening. Then use the damp glass plate to smooth out the wrinkles. Do not heat. Corrugate as an option.
Precipitation-hardening, heating an aluminum alloy and then rapidly cooling by quenching to increase strength and hardness, works with heat treatable alloys, but is not possible with pure aluminum.
May be worth experimenting on thin foils.
===================
Option 2 After the ribbon is corrugated. Anneal to soften by heating in 550-650 F oven for 20 minutes, then let slowly air dry.
Annealing is the term used for softening metal with heat. Non-heat treatable aluminum alloys are annealed by heating to 650 F and then simply allowing them to cool gradually. Some stress relief may occur as an added benefit.
Temperatures of 550F and higher will soften the material. At 650F these non-heat-treated alloys are completely softened (annealed).
Heat-treatable alloys are annealed by heating to 775F for 2-3 hours and cooling slowly to 500F before removing from oven
May be worth experimenting on thick foils.
good suggestions here... I did end up corrogating them both... just for my sanity in the long term... these are some good future tests for ribbons... at least for me
5.8 is so much thicker and so much easier to work with/use/cut/mount/attach clips to... it's just disgusting how hard I had to work for that extra theoritical 1.5 db sensitvity increase with 4.3 micron foil
5.8 is so much thicker and so much easier to work with/use/cut/mount/attach clips to... it's just disgusting how hard I had to work for that extra theoritical 1.5 db sensitvity increase with 4.3 micron foil
in house cryo
Hey Dave: LN2 work is all done in house here. If you have some tubes I can help you out. If they are over at Bill's what's the hold up?
Say did you ever try out some of those mini flud lamp phase plugs we talked about?
Am planning to build a set of Onur Ilkorur's cabinets for fe127e but will be using fe126e instead. These ought to be a great reference for bass performance with this driver so you see my interest in the phase plug project.
Dave have a look at my new web site and give me some feed back. www. my name .com. Thanks and best regards Moray James.
Hey Dave: LN2 work is all done in house here. If you have some tubes I can help you out. If they are over at Bill's what's the hold up?
Say did you ever try out some of those mini flud lamp phase plugs we talked about?
Am planning to build a set of Onur Ilkorur's cabinets for fe127e but will be using fe126e instead. These ought to be a great reference for bass performance with this driver so you see my interest in the phase plug project.
Dave have a look at my new web site and give me some feed back. www. my name .com. Thanks and best regards Moray James.
Re: in house cryo
You know Bill....
You'll have to remind me 🙂
After a bad experience with 4 FE127s you need to be incredibly careful cutting phase plugs off the FE126/127 (and maybe the FE103E).
I have a warning page up http://www.planet10-hifi.com/FE127.html
It is unfortunate. Except for the rubbing (because of the black gunk on the inside of the coil) the plugs did make some improvement.
Do me a favour and next time you visit Bill ask to look at the one we cut up (and bug him to fix the pair he thinks he can fix)
will do.
moray james said:
You know Bill....
You'll have to remind me 🙂
After a bad experience with 4 FE127s you need to be incredibly careful cutting phase plugs off the FE126/127 (and maybe the FE103E).
I have a warning page up http://www.planet10-hifi.com/FE127.html
It is unfortunate. Except for the rubbing (because of the black gunk on the inside of the coil) the plugs did make some improvement.
Do me a favour and next time you visit Bill ask to look at the one we cut up (and bug him to fix the pair he thinks he can fix)
will do.
light bulb plug
Hey Dave: you remember those plugs in some of the Beauhorn speakers (Louthers) they look like big door knobs that are made of wood or metal some look like flud lamps. Well we talked a while back and I mentioned that there are small mini lamps with miniture bases the same shape. I figured that they would fit into a voice coil opening and might be usefull as phase plugs.
Yeah I know, I'll try to put a bug in his ear from this side of the Rockies. Will check my mail. Best regards Moray James.
Hey Dave: you remember those plugs in some of the Beauhorn speakers (Louthers) they look like big door knobs that are made of wood or metal some look like flud lamps. Well we talked a while back and I mentioned that there are small mini lamps with miniture bases the same shape. I figured that they would fit into a voice coil opening and might be usefull as phase plugs.
Yeah I know, I'll try to put a bug in his ear from this side of the Rockies. Will check my mail. Best regards Moray James.
Re: light bulb plug
I'll see what i can turn up. last WE we used some 6BA6s as phase plugs for the Korean SOM 65 FRs. Just a bit tight but a decided improvement.
dave
moray james said:
I'll see what i can turn up. last WE we used some 6BA6s as phase plugs for the Korean SOM 65 FRs. Just a bit tight but a decided improvement.
dave
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