Hi,
For the attached crossover where would it be best to focus spend?
I plan to use air core inductors throughout, but would it be best to focus spend on the capacitor to the woofer?
I can't hear much above 11kHz, so therefore I should perhaps use cheaper caps to the tweeter?
For the attached crossover where would it be best to focus spend?
I plan to use air core inductors throughout, but would it be best to focus spend on the capacitor to the woofer?
I can't hear much above 11kHz, so therefore I should perhaps use cheaper caps to the tweeter?
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Thanks fatmarley - sorry I'm a newbie to this - why is it best to spend the money on the tweeter caps?
The design is not my own, the crossover details where purchased, so I've anonymised the drivers used etc... This is a high end 2 way, Scanspeak Revelator Tweeter and AudioTechnology Midwoofer.
The design is not my own, the crossover details where purchased, so I've anonymised the drivers used etc... This is a high end 2 way, Scanspeak Revelator Tweeter and AudioTechnology Midwoofer.
Some opinions about caps here. I agree, that tweeter cap is the most important piece.
Humble Homemade Hifi - Cap Test
Humble Homemade Hifi - Cap Test
Hi Stretchneck,
as you describe your planned system as high end - whatever this is - and as you´re using quite good drivers, you should also invest in at least decent crossover elements.
Generally speaking, elements in line to the drivers are considered more important than elements in parallel, but of course there are several opinions about that.
A more practical hint: if I would do a combination like this, I would invest in decent caps in line to the tweeter, Jantzen Superior-Z or Mundorf Supreme Evo Oil, and Jantzen Cross Cap or Mundorf Evo Oil parallel to the woofer. Decent Resistors are MOX from many manufacturers.
The R of the coil in series to the woofer is most probably part of the alignment, so don´t go for a larger AWG. If you can afford it, a foil air core coil is regarded as very good and is available from many suppliers as well. The coil parallel to the tweeter is as well defined in your plan, this is a small unexpensive air core coil, no need to change anything here. Vacuum-treated or baked coils cost a little more and are for sure no fault.
But of course, all is subjective, and there are those who claim you can´t hear differences between cheaper and dearer crossover elements at all. There´s only one way for you to find out what´s the truth for you - build and listen!
All the best
Mattes
as you describe your planned system as high end - whatever this is - and as you´re using quite good drivers, you should also invest in at least decent crossover elements.
Generally speaking, elements in line to the drivers are considered more important than elements in parallel, but of course there are several opinions about that.
A more practical hint: if I would do a combination like this, I would invest in decent caps in line to the tweeter, Jantzen Superior-Z or Mundorf Supreme Evo Oil, and Jantzen Cross Cap or Mundorf Evo Oil parallel to the woofer. Decent Resistors are MOX from many manufacturers.
The R of the coil in series to the woofer is most probably part of the alignment, so don´t go for a larger AWG. If you can afford it, a foil air core coil is regarded as very good and is available from many suppliers as well. The coil parallel to the tweeter is as well defined in your plan, this is a small unexpensive air core coil, no need to change anything here. Vacuum-treated or baked coils cost a little more and are for sure no fault.
But of course, all is subjective, and there are those who claim you can´t hear differences between cheaper and dearer crossover elements at all. There´s only one way for you to find out what´s the truth for you - build and listen!
All the best
Mattes
Thanks Mattes - this is very helpful. Common sense was also telling me that the elements inline to the drivers are the most important.
15/16uf to the tweeter is quite expensive if you go for superior-z or similar. Any way of reducing cost here?
Hi Stretchneck,
for sure, money can be saved everywhere... 4,7 uF and 15 uF are app. 50 pounds per side with Jantzen Superior, and less than 20 with Mundorf Evo Oil, but as you´re spending quite some money on drivers, I would find 30 pounds difference per side negligible, or in other words, if you´re buying expensive drivers, don´t skimp on the crossover and try to save a few pounds here, it in´t worth it...
Of course you could always build your crossover with cheap parts first and upgrade later.
All the best
Mattes
for sure, money can be saved everywhere... 4,7 uF and 15 uF are app. 50 pounds per side with Jantzen Superior, and less than 20 with Mundorf Evo Oil, but as you´re spending quite some money on drivers, I would find 30 pounds difference per side negligible, or in other words, if you´re buying expensive drivers, don´t skimp on the crossover and try to save a few pounds here, it in´t worth it...
Of course you could always build your crossover with cheap parts first and upgrade later.
All the best
Mattes
I have just built a high end 2 way similar to your design. I was told by someone who had done quite a bit of experimentation with my speakers that a good upgrade would be the tweeter capacitor the woofer inductor. I upgraded the tweeter capacitor to the Audyn Cap Plus and the woofer inductor to a Dayton 14 AWG air core.
I first built the crossover with "basic" Dayton Audio caps and iron core inductor. I listened to these for a while and then upgraded as mentioned above. It was a serious improvement.
I have since upgraded the remaining caps to Solen PB and the remaining woofer inductor to a 14AWG Meniscus air core inductor. These resulted in further improvement but nothing like the improvement of the initial upgrade.
My total cost for upgrades was around $200 which I believe is very reasonable for the sound achieved.
I recommend building the crossover on a board outside the speakers for experimentation and install it only after you're happy with it.
I first built the crossover with "basic" Dayton Audio caps and iron core inductor. I listened to these for a while and then upgraded as mentioned above. It was a serious improvement.
I have since upgraded the remaining caps to Solen PB and the remaining woofer inductor to a 14AWG Meniscus air core inductor. These resulted in further improvement but nothing like the improvement of the initial upgrade.
My total cost for upgrades was around $200 which I believe is very reasonable for the sound achieved.
I recommend building the crossover on a board outside the speakers for experimentation and install it only after you're happy with it.
I have tried a few capacitors on the mid speaker in a three way set up , first
were clarity cap esa there smooth coloured and mask detail , next up were these Russian caps k73-16 and wow big difference more detail a bit bright at first but they do settle down neutral big improvement and cheap , I then replaced them for jantsen superior z cap , they were a bit better but not much in it , the lower voltage caps seem to be better but not many make them , ive
also tried jantsen silver z cap and clarity cap mr on the tweeter , also tried both caps in a phono stage , the jantsen silver z cap was very bright in the phono, but sounded great on my tweeters , the clarity cap was great in the phono stage but did not suite the tweeters , the jantsen superior z cap and silver z cap are good value for money compared to others , phil.
were clarity cap esa there smooth coloured and mask detail , next up were these Russian caps k73-16 and wow big difference more detail a bit bright at first but they do settle down neutral big improvement and cheap , I then replaced them for jantsen superior z cap , they were a bit better but not much in it , the lower voltage caps seem to be better but not many make them , ive
also tried jantsen silver z cap and clarity cap mr on the tweeter , also tried both caps in a phono stage , the jantsen silver z cap was very bright in the phono, but sounded great on my tweeters , the clarity cap was great in the phono stage but did not suite the tweeters , the jantsen superior z cap and silver z cap are good value for money compared to others , phil.
Strange thing is that if bought very good quality crossover parts ( you have quite a few ) you could very well spend more then your speaker drivers cost. It might actually be more economical to buy better speakers. You will never recover the money you spent on those parts if you sell your speakers. Something to consider. Good luck.
I've done quite a bit of experimentation, and I find that more money is not always better. I strongly prefer SCR/Axon/Solen caps across woofers. If you can afford the 630V or Solen Silversound those are preferred. I-core laminates provide a bit of emphasis or slam, so I prefer air cores on woofers. Usually 14AWG is large enough. In my experimentation, I preferred Litz to solid round to foil. I did not prefer Litz to round on tweeter, but did round to foil. And yes, AWG did make a difference in some cases here. i like to use 16AWG. Tweeter caps are more finicky than the rest. Some are better than others in some situations. IME, EVO oil caps dulled the sound a bit. These might suit some metal domes. Sonicaps tend to be a bit bright, but detail is good. MultiCap PPMFX and PPFX are less bright with about the same detail. These have been great on metal, ribbon, and soft. Also good space rendering for the last 3. Clarity MR are the best in their lineup. The lesser models are not as spacious, but detail is good. Jansen Zcaps, all 3, are good. I like the Silvers most, and usually avoid less than 250v rated caps, so the Alumen are not on my radar. Silvers render space very well. Audyn Plus, Tri-Reference, and True Copper are all good caps. Plus is just behind a Superior in my opinion.
I will be doing more testing on caps in the next 6 months, and include beeswax, Teflon, polystyrene, high voltage DuPont Mylar, copper foil, silver metallized, and maybe a few more; in reference to one another on a small horn driver.
My rec,
Silver 4.7, Superior 15, SilverSound 4.7 on woofer.
Litz14 3.0 on woofer, Air16 0.6 on tweeter.
Use Mills 12W resistors.
Later,
Wolf
I will be doing more testing on caps in the next 6 months, and include beeswax, Teflon, polystyrene, high voltage DuPont Mylar, copper foil, silver metallized, and maybe a few more; in reference to one another on a small horn driver.
My rec,
Silver 4.7, Superior 15, SilverSound 4.7 on woofer.
Litz14 3.0 on woofer, Air16 0.6 on tweeter.
Use Mills 12W resistors.
Later,
Wolf
Honestly?? Fit decent 'regular' as opposed to Boutique Audio Weenie parts.
Air cored inductors are cheap enough tho, so almost no point saving a very few $ there.
Resistors? beyond being Non Inductive. Only Superman hisself 'may' hear differences
Caps however are religious territory..despite Bleats to the contrary.
With constrained hearing.. any advantages, real or imagined will not be audible
(ps: hearing losses in high frequencies typically have matching low end losses)
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Due to age i believe, i have now some hearing losses at higher frequencies, but at the same time i have started to become a lot more sensitive for lower frequencies, and low frequencies bothers me a lot more now then it used to. It is like losses in one end of the spectrum gets compensated at the other end
+1 I did that (just used Axon true cap's) and I was happy enough with the results that I still haven't upgraded to "better" caps. If I do upgrade I will probably go to Clarity Cap CSA 250V as they won't break the bank and seem to have some science behind their claims of superiority. Parts Connection has a good range of crossover caps, it is where I got my Axons. ClarityCap CSA/ESA 250Vdc Series Film Capacitors
I have 4.7uF and 15uf on my tweeter circuit, but the shunt coil is only 180uH. in my case the 15uF does very little with respect to the response curve (of the tweeter), but it does help to bring the phase into alignment with the woofers.
Tony.
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