I'll say this one more time, then bow out: rated frequency response is MEANINGLESS.
If looking at on and off axis frequency response curves to figure out how to match two drivers is beyond you, then you need to do some studying before trying a design of your own. I strongly recommend Vance Dickason's Loudspeaker Design Cookbook to get a flavor of how design decisions are made.
If looking at on and off axis frequency response curves to figure out how to match two drivers is beyond you, then you need to do some studying before trying a design of your own. I strongly recommend Vance Dickason's Loudspeaker Design Cookbook to get a flavor of how design decisions are made.
Well, SY, sorry to see you go, but...
Rated Frequency Response is not MEANINGLESS, it's of limited value.
As are Frequency Response graphs. I can sit and look at response graphs until I turn to dust, and it is meaningless unless I have a guideline for this fundamental question.
I repeat -
Regardless of where it occurs in the design process, this question has to be answered, and logically, those who answer are using something to base their decision on.
Steve/bluewizard
Rated Frequency Response is not MEANINGLESS, it's of limited value.
As are Frequency Response graphs. I can sit and look at response graphs until I turn to dust, and it is meaningless unless I have a guideline for this fundamental question.
I repeat -
Regardless of where it occurs in the design process, this question has to be answered, and logically, those who answer are using something to base their decision on.
Steve/bluewizard
I think that when a manufacturer recommends a frequency range for a drive unit, they are implicitly stating that having crossovers centred at the given figures will work.
Sometimes they actually say the order of the crossover they recommend, and occasionally they will give you options, e.g., for a midrange, "500Hz-2000Hz 1st-order, 250Hz-3000Hz 2nd-order."
If they don't specify the slope and just say something like "2kHz-20kHz" for the range, then I'd assume they mean 2nd-order or more:
"Use a 2nd-order or steeper highpass at 2kHz, and don't expect much out above 20kHz".
But, I could be wrong.
Sometimes they actually say the order of the crossover they recommend, and occasionally they will give you options, e.g., for a midrange, "500Hz-2000Hz 1st-order, 250Hz-3000Hz 2nd-order."
If they don't specify the slope and just say something like "2kHz-20kHz" for the range, then I'd assume they mean 2nd-order or more:
"Use a 2nd-order or steeper highpass at 2kHz, and don't expect much out above 20kHz".
But, I could be wrong.
BlueWizard said:
Hi,
It isn't hard to design a speaker. It's hard to design a good speaker. Sy is not making it more complicated, just trying to illustrate the correct starting approach to speaker design.
He says consider the woofer first because the mid woofer will be the most influential part of the (2-way) speaker design. You then pick a tweeter to match. This doesn't limit your options, just puts things in their correct order.
As far as crossover slopes go, you need to take into account the drivers response also. If the xover slope is 6db/oct that needs to be applied to the drivers roll off too. The driver may already be down 10db at the second octave.
BlueWizard said:
To simplify things, yes this should give good results.
Maybe looking at the max excursion of the tweeter (with the intended xo in place) could be a start in determining if the tweeter will work with you chosen xo point, and slope. For example Linkwitz used a pretty low xo point for a scanspeak tweeter (9700) on his phoenix speakers, but used a 24dB/oct slope. He measured and made sure it would work at his chosen xo point, up to his chosen spl, at his chosen distortion levels.
As Sy says, you do need to set yourself goals / requirements before you choose drivers. When somebody walks into a hifi shop and says 'those look nice' they do not have to think about how they came to be as somebody else has done all the thinking for them.
Also the chosen xo slope will often be determined by the driver, unless you decide you need a 6dB/oct xo and then you have to find the driver to match. You have to realise that even though a driver may appear flat 1 oct above the xo, it may also sound harsh etc from break up modes etc. These will need notch filters / higher order slopes to remove the problems.
Also directivity pays a very important part in choosing xo points.
At the end of the day it's DIYaudio though so it's all up to you.
Just some random thoughts.
Rob.
As Sy says, you do need to set yourself goals / requirements before you choose drivers. When somebody walks into a hifi shop and says 'those look nice' they do not have to think about how they came to be as somebody else has done all the thinking for them.
Also the chosen xo slope will often be determined by the driver, unless you decide you need a 6dB/oct xo and then you have to find the driver to match. You have to realise that even though a driver may appear flat 1 oct above the xo, it may also sound harsh etc from break up modes etc. These will need notch filters / higher order slopes to remove the problems.
Also directivity pays a very important part in choosing xo points.
At the end of the day it's DIYaudio though so it's all up to you.
Just some random thoughts.
Rob.
BlueWizard said:
Steve, you are determined to push that chain. It's made of metal so you ought to be able to push it. We are saying you should try pulling it.
The 2X Fs is one octave above. You as a speaker designer already know that you're well within it's recognized frequency range. Next you might wish to consider the power handling. OK, you have a weak tweeter so let's consider making the slope steeper to improve power handling. Or maybe you're concerned about how the overlap sounds. That's another reason to consider a steep slope. Or let's say you are against all that wiring and you have two drivers that blend well and can handle the power so you might wish to consider using a lesser slope.
I am well on my way to designing my speaker but haven't yet considered any spec dealing directly with the frequency response.
Anyway, a buddy just dropped by and it's really close to beer time so I'll have another go later if this didn't make sense. I can often get my point across much better after beer. 🙂
Cheers.
I think the simple answer is two octaves either side of the crossover point (more or less depending on our slopes).
This is what some of us dream of but rarely get.
It doesn't matter much though. We get skilled at making a poor looking response look good through creative circuitry and other means.
This is what some of us dream of but rarely get.
It doesn't matter much though. We get skilled at making a poor looking response look good through creative circuitry and other means.
SY said:
Hmmm... i've actually got something real close to that in the queue... vertical dispersion like the horizontal will probably be pretty much the same, F3 of 70 hz, butterworth, MTM so i don't have to pad the tweeters, XO at ~350 Hz will give me about an octave and a half overlap. I'll probably have to look at 2nd order as a starting point.
dave
Cal, just want to make sure this wasn't a typo -
If the upper usable limit of that woofer is 2kHz then you want a tweeter with an Fs of no less than 1Khz.
Shouldn't that be 'Fs of no MORE than 1khz'? Meaning that the resonance of the tweeter should be outside its system usable range. In other words, well below the crossover point. And I assume you are referring to the absolute frequency of 1khz, and not a gap of 1khz. In this case it amounts to the same, but not in every case.
Maybe I'm misunderstanding what you are referring to.
I'm certainly aware that many other parameters need to be taken into consideration when it comes to the actual design of a speaker system, but how do you get to these other factors, if you can't reasonably determine which speakers to consider? You all want to jump directly to the design phase, but I'm still stuck at the shopping phase. And that seems to be to be the real starting point.
Someone suggested I start with the woofer and deal with the tweeter later, but realistically how many people buy speaker components like that? Most likely, in my view, you are going to have a basic design concept, search out a couple drivers that fit it, and then run the simulations.
But how do you make that initial pick, if you don't have a guideline for frequency overlap? I'm not asking for a definitive statement on the subject; I'm asking for a starting point. How can I even consider two possible speakers for preliminary consideration, if I don't have this initial rule of thumb?
Assuming, again for this illustration, that I intend to use a 12db crossover, which is very likely in the real world as well, can I consider two speakers with a +-500hz overlap? I don't think I can because that's not wide enough for a 12db crossover. So, if I stretch it to a +-1000hz overlap, is that then enough? In my mind, it is a marginal maybe at best. In this case, it would very much depend on the crossover frequency, but that would depend on the frequency overlap.
Or perhaps instead of thinking in terms of actual frequency numbers, I should think of it in Octaves, but I can't even get that much of a guideline. EG: Not +- 1khz, but +- one octave.
When I open a catalog for speakers for a 2-way system, instantly lots of speaker are unworkable because their rated frequency response leaves a big gap in the middle. So, after eliminating all those, I start to look at drivers that do overlap. Once I have sufficient overlap, I can start running the other parameters to see if I have a workable combination within my design concept. If it is a workable combination, I'm going to buy the set. I'm not going to blindly buy a woofer within a design framework and later hope I can find a tweeter to match it.
I do agree that the design, even when it is still just a gleam in my eye, starts with the bass. Then likely while still in the stage of thought, I'm going to consider which type of cabinet I'm interested in building this time.
So, let's say I decide I'm going to build a small tower with a single 8" woofer in a 2-way system. Now I open the catalog and start searching for POTENTIAL speakers. Instantly, as I said before, a whole lot of them are out of the picture because they are hopelessly incompatible. Now we narrow it down to woofers and tweeters that might be compatible.
Maybe you expand your design concept differently, but the first thing I'm looking for is frequency overlap. Without that, I can't determine if a pair of drivers are worth considering. No, that is not the final end-all be-all of the design, but it needs to be a starting point when you are still in the browsing stage.
If I have a rule of thumb, I can determine which drivers can be considered as POTENTIAL matches, then run the parameters and see if I have a workable combination.
Like I said, maybe you do it differently when you are still at the catalog browsing stage, but I can't see any other way of doing it. I need that basic rule to get past this first hurdle. Once past it, only then can I take the other parameters into consideration.
Obviously, I'm no expert, but I don't see any way around this basic browsing stage decision.
I know you are frustrated because I keep harping on this, but again, while still in the shopping browsing stage, I need some basic guideline to determine which drivers I can consider and which I can't.
Steve/bluewizard
If the upper usable limit of that woofer is 2kHz then you want a tweeter with an Fs of no less than 1Khz.
Shouldn't that be 'Fs of no MORE than 1khz'? Meaning that the resonance of the tweeter should be outside its system usable range. In other words, well below the crossover point. And I assume you are referring to the absolute frequency of 1khz, and not a gap of 1khz. In this case it amounts to the same, but not in every case.
Maybe I'm misunderstanding what you are referring to.
I'm certainly aware that many other parameters need to be taken into consideration when it comes to the actual design of a speaker system, but how do you get to these other factors, if you can't reasonably determine which speakers to consider? You all want to jump directly to the design phase, but I'm still stuck at the shopping phase. And that seems to be to be the real starting point.
Someone suggested I start with the woofer and deal with the tweeter later, but realistically how many people buy speaker components like that? Most likely, in my view, you are going to have a basic design concept, search out a couple drivers that fit it, and then run the simulations.
But how do you make that initial pick, if you don't have a guideline for frequency overlap? I'm not asking for a definitive statement on the subject; I'm asking for a starting point. How can I even consider two possible speakers for preliminary consideration, if I don't have this initial rule of thumb?
Assuming, again for this illustration, that I intend to use a 12db crossover, which is very likely in the real world as well, can I consider two speakers with a +-500hz overlap? I don't think I can because that's not wide enough for a 12db crossover. So, if I stretch it to a +-1000hz overlap, is that then enough? In my mind, it is a marginal maybe at best. In this case, it would very much depend on the crossover frequency, but that would depend on the frequency overlap.
Or perhaps instead of thinking in terms of actual frequency numbers, I should think of it in Octaves, but I can't even get that much of a guideline. EG: Not +- 1khz, but +- one octave.
When I open a catalog for speakers for a 2-way system, instantly lots of speaker are unworkable because their rated frequency response leaves a big gap in the middle. So, after eliminating all those, I start to look at drivers that do overlap. Once I have sufficient overlap, I can start running the other parameters to see if I have a workable combination within my design concept. If it is a workable combination, I'm going to buy the set. I'm not going to blindly buy a woofer within a design framework and later hope I can find a tweeter to match it.
I do agree that the design, even when it is still just a gleam in my eye, starts with the bass. Then likely while still in the stage of thought, I'm going to consider which type of cabinet I'm interested in building this time.
So, let's say I decide I'm going to build a small tower with a single 8" woofer in a 2-way system. Now I open the catalog and start searching for POTENTIAL speakers. Instantly, as I said before, a whole lot of them are out of the picture because they are hopelessly incompatible. Now we narrow it down to woofers and tweeters that might be compatible.
Maybe you expand your design concept differently, but the first thing I'm looking for is frequency overlap. Without that, I can't determine if a pair of drivers are worth considering. No, that is not the final end-all be-all of the design, but it needs to be a starting point when you are still in the browsing stage.
If I have a rule of thumb, I can determine which drivers can be considered as POTENTIAL matches, then run the parameters and see if I have a workable combination.
Like I said, maybe you do it differently when you are still at the catalog browsing stage, but I can't see any other way of doing it. I need that basic rule to get past this first hurdle. Once past it, only then can I take the other parameters into consideration.
Obviously, I'm no expert, but I don't see any way around this basic browsing stage decision.
I know you are frustrated because I keep harping on this, but again, while still in the shopping browsing stage, I need some basic guideline to determine which drivers I can consider and which I can't.
Steve/bluewizard
Yes that was a typo. Thank you for spotting it. No higher than 1kHz is how I should have worded it.
OK, if you're still struggling with using the Fs, distortion, beaming and cone break up as starting points then I would suggest that you use drivers capable of at least one octave either side of the XO point, two is even better. Down no more than 3dB. Use 2nd order XO's
I can't believe I wrote that but it seems like it's the only thing you wanted to hear, as off track as it may be.
EDIT: I'm off to work for a bit.
OK, if you're still struggling with using the Fs, distortion, beaming and cone break up as starting points then I would suggest that you use drivers capable of at least one octave either side of the XO point, two is even better. Down no more than 3dB. Use 2nd order XO's
I can't believe I wrote that but it seems like it's the only thing you wanted to hear, as off track as it may be.
EDIT: I'm off to work for a bit.
Well, I guess we are at a dead end here, so best to let it go. I want to say thanks to everyone who replied. I don't deny what any of you have said, and will go do far as to say that you are all absolutely correct at the stage you are at. But I also think you are all 3 to 5 steps ahead of me.
I still say there must be some rule of thumb regarding this one early-on feature, yet no one seems to know what it is. I still say it is because you all know too much, but I'm never one to deny knowledge.
You claim I must start with a complex design philosophy, but when I look at the 'Design Goals' and 'Speaker Selection' in the Projects page at Part Express, I don't see these complexities. However, I acknowledge that these various complexities are going to come into play before the design is done.
I don't think most DIY speaker builders start with a complex set of design goals. I think more likely it is a design concept based on size, shape, and generally desired speakers. Then you start searching for speaker that meet the basic design concept.
To find these speakers, you must have a process of elimination. You must have some criteria that allows you to say 'No' to this speaker and 'maybe' to that one. Only when you've narrowed the field down, would I expect anyone to start looking at detailed parameters.
Your trying to design an actual speaker; I'm trying to narrow down the field, and I think that is where we are disconnected.
Still, I tried and I learned.
Steve/bluewizard
I still say there must be some rule of thumb regarding this one early-on feature, yet no one seems to know what it is. I still say it is because you all know too much, but I'm never one to deny knowledge.
You claim I must start with a complex design philosophy, but when I look at the 'Design Goals' and 'Speaker Selection' in the Projects page at Part Express, I don't see these complexities. However, I acknowledge that these various complexities are going to come into play before the design is done.
I don't think most DIY speaker builders start with a complex set of design goals. I think more likely it is a design concept based on size, shape, and generally desired speakers. Then you start searching for speaker that meet the basic design concept.
To find these speakers, you must have a process of elimination. You must have some criteria that allows you to say 'No' to this speaker and 'maybe' to that one. Only when you've narrowed the field down, would I expect anyone to start looking at detailed parameters.
Your trying to design an actual speaker; I'm trying to narrow down the field, and I think that is where we are disconnected.
Still, I tried and I learned.
Steve/bluewizard
BlueWizard said:
Why thankyou........I think 😀
I think we're all trying to bootstrap you up to this higher plane of "perfect" speaker building and try and save you a lot of the angst that many of us have felt.
You are right. When I build my first set of speakers I said something like "which speakers have 2 octaves of overlap" and bought those and they sounded great for a while. Then as I got better at listening, bought better sources, better recordings and had "golden eared" friends critique my designs I realized they had shortcomings. A little compression here, some distortion there, bumps and dips galore.
There's a lot more to designing a good set of speakers than getting a flat frequency response on paper. Things like voicecoil/magnet design for linearity, cone resonance, mass/stiffness/damping of the moving mass. These things cannot be corrected in the crossover and so, I think, are more important when choosing a driver. There are amazing things you can do to fix frequency response, phase & delay in a crossover.
So my fear is that you may reject a really good driver because it doesn't have X octaves of overlap and conversely, buy a speaker that looks good in the manufacturers baffle but has some dirty secrets hiding in the closet.
Such is the art of speaker building.
Good luck and keep us posted of your progress. We still like you and will continue to help (if you want us to.)
Steve the answer to your question is at least 1 octave either side of xo point.
The problem is that a lot of mids will have breakup modes that will need more than just a simple xo to sort out. Thats why people use higher order slopes and notch filters / eq etc. Even though the mid is showing response to say, 2500Hz it doesn't mean it sounds good there.
Earlier you stated that driver choice should influence xo choice, but then went on to speculate 'Suppose I want a speaker with a 2kHz xo point and a 12dB/oct slope' There you have decided that xo choice should be made before driver choice.
If you really want to do it 'your way' then I'd suggest looking at full range drivers for your mid choice as they have the best chance of sounding good in a speaker designed by looking at the frequency response graphs and deciding that as they overlap enough, they will be good.
Make sure you read up on baffle step compensation and matching dispertion at crossover point. This may help you understand better why you're not getting a 'simple answer' to your 'simple question'
Maybe if you posted what you intend to build / want to achieve then people could help you with driver choices and by doing that and following the project through to building you'd gain some insight into how the other factors come into play.
Good luck in your project,
Rob.
The problem is that a lot of mids will have breakup modes that will need more than just a simple xo to sort out. Thats why people use higher order slopes and notch filters / eq etc. Even though the mid is showing response to say, 2500Hz it doesn't mean it sounds good there.
Earlier you stated that driver choice should influence xo choice, but then went on to speculate 'Suppose I want a speaker with a 2kHz xo point and a 12dB/oct slope' There you have decided that xo choice should be made before driver choice.
If you really want to do it 'your way' then I'd suggest looking at full range drivers for your mid choice as they have the best chance of sounding good in a speaker designed by looking at the frequency response graphs and deciding that as they overlap enough, they will be good.
Make sure you read up on baffle step compensation and matching dispertion at crossover point. This may help you understand better why you're not getting a 'simple answer' to your 'simple question'
Maybe if you posted what you intend to build / want to achieve then people could help you with driver choices and by doing that and following the project through to building you'd gain some insight into how the other factors come into play.
Good luck in your project,
Rob.
Here's a thought.
Why don't you start with the criterion 8 octaves of overlap and see if you can find a set of drivers. If that doesn't work reduce the overlap to 7, 6, etc etc until you finally get a set of drivers.
Post your findings here and we'll let you know what dirty secrets are hiding regarding those speakers.
Why don't you start with the criterion 8 octaves of overlap and see if you can find a set of drivers. If that doesn't work reduce the overlap to 7, 6, etc etc until you finally get a set of drivers.
Post your findings here and we'll let you know what dirty secrets are hiding regarding those speakers.
Of course you don't. They're not in the business of trying to teach you speaker design, they're trying to convince you to give them money.
I don't make any money if you buy Dickason's book and start studying. But that's what you ought to do. It will save you money and grief, and you'll end up with a much better design. You'll also be able to benefit from the experience of doing your first design and know what you can do better for the second one.
There's an old Jewish parable about four sons. With all due respect, I think you're the fourth son, the one who doesn't yet know enough to ask a proper question. Study a bit and you'll be the Wise Son.
Well, you have all been helpful, though it may not seem like it.
I am well aware that stated frequency response is not the end-all be-all of speaker design. I'm also aware from looking at response graphs that stated frequency response hides a lot. Though in recent memory, mostly on the high end. I've see tweeters and full range that get (pardon the technical term) nutty at the high end of their rating. Some have odd dips, some have odd peaks. Certainly, my first choice would be to use them in their 'better' working range, to keep these oddities out of the circuit. And if what I see it's just too flakey, I would simply move on to other speakers.
But, this is the next step, not the first step. Before I can decide if a speaker is worth looking at, I have to decide that it might be worth looking at. You are in the design phase, and I am still in the consider and concept phase, and again, I think this is where we have a disconnect.
I'm not looking at speaker FOR a design, I'm looking at speaker to CONSIDER for a design. By some process of elimination, I will find the speaker that looks likely. In the past, I have used best guess; 'OK, these look like they will work'. But I assumed there had to be something better than a shrug your shoulders and make a guess.
Again, I concede absolutely everything that has been said here is absolutely true...eventually. But I'm not at the eventually yet.
For the record, there is no real speaker design being considered at the moment. This was simply a hypothetical presentation to use as a method for determining the rule of thumb.
The statement of 2khz XO with a 12db crossover, was simply to set some limits on the discussion, to give a framework to the discussion. And 2khz is a nice point to work from because you can move octaves up and down very nicely from there. I would never start with that as a foundation. Personally, I would prefer, as suggested, to keep the crossover much lower, say in the 300 to 800 range. Which would very likely imply a 3-way system. But for this illustration, a 3-way only complicates things more. I wanted to keep it simple.
So, again, I would never start with a crossover point, and then search for speakers to fit it. I would find reasonably workable speaker, and then find a crossover point based on them; XO point, slope, etc....
Thanks for the help.
Steve/bluewizard
I am well aware that stated frequency response is not the end-all be-all of speaker design. I'm also aware from looking at response graphs that stated frequency response hides a lot. Though in recent memory, mostly on the high end. I've see tweeters and full range that get (pardon the technical term) nutty at the high end of their rating. Some have odd dips, some have odd peaks. Certainly, my first choice would be to use them in their 'better' working range, to keep these oddities out of the circuit. And if what I see it's just too flakey, I would simply move on to other speakers.
But, this is the next step, not the first step. Before I can decide if a speaker is worth looking at, I have to decide that it might be worth looking at. You are in the design phase, and I am still in the consider and concept phase, and again, I think this is where we have a disconnect.
I'm not looking at speaker FOR a design, I'm looking at speaker to CONSIDER for a design. By some process of elimination, I will find the speaker that looks likely. In the past, I have used best guess; 'OK, these look like they will work'. But I assumed there had to be something better than a shrug your shoulders and make a guess.
Again, I concede absolutely everything that has been said here is absolutely true...eventually. But I'm not at the eventually yet.
For the record, there is no real speaker design being considered at the moment. This was simply a hypothetical presentation to use as a method for determining the rule of thumb.
The statement of 2khz XO with a 12db crossover, was simply to set some limits on the discussion, to give a framework to the discussion. And 2khz is a nice point to work from because you can move octaves up and down very nicely from there. I would never start with that as a foundation. Personally, I would prefer, as suggested, to keep the crossover much lower, say in the 300 to 800 range. Which would very likely imply a 3-way system. But for this illustration, a 3-way only complicates things more. I wanted to keep it simple.
So, again, I would never start with a crossover point, and then search for speakers to fit it. I would find reasonably workable speaker, and then find a crossover point based on them; XO point, slope, etc....
Thanks for the help.
Steve/bluewizard
BlueWizard said:
I don't understand the above at all 😕
When I'm looking to build a speaker there are all sorts of constraints - budget, total size, whether it's to be full range or run with a sub, whether I'll have active or passive xo's, how loud it needs to go, how big the room is that it's going in. etc etc.
Thats before even looking at drivers. A large room may dictate a 3 way over a 2 way if running without subs, low level listening may allow for single driver speakers etc ... if 3 way then active xo becomes a good option..
Once I have an idea of what type of speaker I'm building I can look for drivers that will fit my criteria.
Your saying you're looking for a driver and then designing a cab for it. What happens if the right cab is too big for the room? What happens if it doesn't play loud enough when finished ? Or do you just want to build 'a speaker' and not really care whats it's going to be used for?
Rob.
Try the JBL 2226 driver for a start. It's a brilliant driver, goes up to 1600Hz. You may have trouble finding a tweeter though.🙂
Rob
Rob
I have a suggestion for you.
To get a feel of what drivers are capable of, this site may be of interest LDSG
Its a bit on the old side, but worth reviewing.
Also read all of the independent driver reviews. A few listed here.
Zaph Page
Mark K Speaker Site
While you are at it, Check out the designs from these two sites and note the electrical and acoustic roll off and crossover points.
Finally, look through this forum and review the designs.
you will see that there are relatively few tweeters that people use in MTM designs, where a low crossover is most valued.
After you have done this, re-read the excellent suggestions above.
HTH
Doug
To get a feel of what drivers are capable of, this site may be of interest LDSG
Its a bit on the old side, but worth reviewing.
Also read all of the independent driver reviews. A few listed here.
Zaph Page
Mark K Speaker Site
While you are at it, Check out the designs from these two sites and note the electrical and acoustic roll off and crossover points.
Finally, look through this forum and review the designs.
you will see that there are relatively few tweeters that people use in MTM designs, where a low crossover is most valued.
After you have done this, re-read the excellent suggestions above.
HTH
Doug
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