Phenolic ring tweeters are old school technology and no longer considered to be state of the art or even high fidelity. Plenty of dome tweeters that can be crossed over quite low. Practically everything from Morel and ScanSpeak has an fs below 1000Hz. Of course you get what you pay for.
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Crossovers produce distortion regardless of the crossover frequency.
But with that low of a crossover frequency, the distortion you were hearing was likely from the tweeter itself, more than from the crossover.
2KHz is in the region of greatest hearing sensitivity, but not below 2Khz. More like 2KHz-5KHz.
The real point is: Does the lower crossover point cure more problems than it creates. A really good crossover will be much less noticeable than poor off-axis power response in most rooms, which often dictates a low crossover frequency solution in a typical 1 inch tweeter/6.5 inch mid-woofer speaker.
Given the OP's apparent lack of knowledge, I would suggest a single driver "fullrange" speaker with an inexpensive, but decent powered subwoofer. These can be just excellent and don't have to cost an arm and a leg.
Best Regards,
TerryO
My plan was to buy the stated crossovers and some small caps to dial-in the crossovers by ear. I figure that the added inductance in any speaker will lower the lowpass frequency of any crossover component, so I'd add caps to lower the associated highpass until they mesh.
As this is going to be a sub/satellite system, I don't really need response below 100Hz, so I'm looking for one driver to cover 3 octaves (100-800Hz), I already have drivers for (3.5 octaves) 800Hz~8K (The JVCs), and (3 octaves) ~2.5K-25k (The ND20fa). I figure a 5k crossover point for the mid-high cutoff will be well within the range of both drivers' capabilities, same with the 800Hz cross.
The JVCs actually sound pretty good run full-range, which I'm doing now with a sub. With a lot of EQ and low volume, I can hear real bass out of them without the sub, but I don't want to push them that hard, so I'm relegating them to midrange use. As it is, they have better bass than the JBLs they're replacing.
As this is going to be a sub/satellite system, I don't really need response below 100Hz, so I'm looking for one driver to cover 3 octaves (100-800Hz), I already have drivers for (3.5 octaves) 800Hz~8K (The JVCs), and (3 octaves) ~2.5K-25k (The ND20fa). I figure a 5k crossover point for the mid-high cutoff will be well within the range of both drivers' capabilities, same with the 800Hz cross.
The JVCs actually sound pretty good run full-range, which I'm doing now with a sub. With a lot of EQ and low volume, I can hear real bass out of them without the sub, but I don't want to push them that hard, so I'm relegating them to midrange use. As it is, they have better bass than the JBLs they're replacing.
To circuitsoft,
coming from a fellow noob that's also pretty new to "design," what the general consensus of these forums is if you're going to do it, do it "right." "Right" usually being the best solution for the problem, which may not always sit well with the the noob's exotic thinking and grand designs including myself with a tiny studio- two HUGE open baffles and a ridiculous sub, overkill and completed not "suited" for my size but I love it because it's a hobby.
In your case, what everybody is saying is that you're tossing your money into a bad sounding setup because there are better solutions out there for your situation. People are always willing to help, but they're not going to help you put out a fire with a bucket when you have a unused hose just sitting there.
The other part that people are hating on you for is that drivers, specs and EVERYTHING plays a vital role in achieving a flat response and a store bought crossover just won't cut it as a crossover is affected by other things such as cavity, t/s, box type, etc. so you can't have an "universal" one that'll magically work for all driver combo's.
With that, I already distanced myself from xovers until either active xovers or when I get measurement tools. However, that still leaves a lot of room for projects that are easier- open baffles, FRs.
In the end, though a 2way setup would work and be easy, I agree with TerryO in that a single fullrange may be the best choice- find one of the pioneer B20 off the F/S section but if you're going cheap/skinny- just get a ton of those Newcom buyouts .79 for two speakers and build a super tall/skinny Openbaffle and then some tweeters but you'll have to deal with other issues.
I also doubt whatever you build will sound better than the JBLs, I'm sure they're small and lack the audio punch but they're were "designed" by engineers and not just thrown together by somebody asking questions on a forum. Best of luck though, I love experimenting and discovering trends on their own. Build a bad speaker and you'll understand why everybody said what they said.
-Ken
coming from a fellow noob that's also pretty new to "design," what the general consensus of these forums is if you're going to do it, do it "right." "Right" usually being the best solution for the problem, which may not always sit well with the the noob's exotic thinking and grand designs including myself with a tiny studio- two HUGE open baffles and a ridiculous sub, overkill and completed not "suited" for my size but I love it because it's a hobby.
In your case, what everybody is saying is that you're tossing your money into a bad sounding setup because there are better solutions out there for your situation. People are always willing to help, but they're not going to help you put out a fire with a bucket when you have a unused hose just sitting there.
The other part that people are hating on you for is that drivers, specs and EVERYTHING plays a vital role in achieving a flat response and a store bought crossover just won't cut it as a crossover is affected by other things such as cavity, t/s, box type, etc. so you can't have an "universal" one that'll magically work for all driver combo's.
With that, I already distanced myself from xovers until either active xovers or when I get measurement tools. However, that still leaves a lot of room for projects that are easier- open baffles, FRs.
In the end, though a 2way setup would work and be easy, I agree with TerryO in that a single fullrange may be the best choice- find one of the pioneer B20 off the F/S section but if you're going cheap/skinny- just get a ton of those Newcom buyouts .79 for two speakers and build a super tall/skinny Openbaffle and then some tweeters but you'll have to deal with other issues.
I also doubt whatever you build will sound better than the JBLs, I'm sure they're small and lack the audio punch but they're were "designed" by engineers and not just thrown together by somebody asking questions on a forum. Best of luck though, I love experimenting and discovering trends on their own. Build a bad speaker and you'll understand why everybody said what they said.
-Ken
That's what I thought at first, but I'm starting to wonder now. The satellites have low-order highpass crossovers in them ~150Hz. The enclosures and speakers wind up rolling off ~180 with a response peak ~200Hz, and the sub has a ~150Hz crossover frequency. The instructions say to set your receiver to cross over ~150Hz. Now, we have two 150Hz crossovers overlayed, so you get a high-order roll-off on the satellites at a higher frequency yet, low-order rolloff on the sub, and a dip in the middle of the response.
Then, the plate amp on the sub died, and the replacement I found has an adjustable crossover frequency that tops out at 120Hz.
So, now there's an even bigger dip in the middle of the response.
The trebel in the JBL speakers has always been harsh, so I'm doubting that there's any lowpass on the 3" "woofer", and that it has high-frequency peaking that's interfering with the tweeter. Covering the tweeter with my hand makes barely noticeable changes to the sound, so I think the tweeters may be there more to look impressive than to sound good.
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The real problem is that he wants something skinny, enclosures that are no wider than 3 inches!
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Well, any baffle step correction will be way up there and I suppose that will keep the cost down.
Best Regards,
TerryO
Speaking of baffle step correction, can I see baffle step in an impedance/phase graph of the speaker, or do I need a measurement microphone to do so?
Baffle Diffraction Step
Since I'm looking at 2.5" wide speakers, looks like baffle step will be from ~680Hz to ~2.7Khz. A little design tweaking should pretty much keep it all firmly within the range of my "midrange" so I only have to deal with it in one place.
On another note, anyone know of any free software that will take an impulse response of a speaker an turn it into a frequency plot, or do I need to do a sine sweep? Granted, I'd be doing this in my bedroom, and my microphone (M-Audio Session USB) isn't that good.
Since I'm looking at 2.5" wide speakers, looks like baffle step will be from ~680Hz to ~2.7Khz. A little design tweaking should pretty much keep it all firmly within the range of my "midrange" so I only have to deal with it in one place.
On another note, anyone know of any free software that will take an impulse response of a speaker an turn it into a frequency plot, or do I need to do a sine sweep? Granted, I'd be doing this in my bedroom, and my microphone (M-Audio Session USB) isn't that good.
Sounds good to me.
If you are really concerned about getting bass, maybe you should consider adding a subwoofer or two.
I'm not concerned about getting bass, though everyone else seems to be. I just want enough bass to not worry about subwoofer localization. I figure that 80Hz would be nice, but 100-120 would be good enough.
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