I was referred here by "I am an Idiot" from another forum to ask for help about my amplifier repair.
I'll start from the beginning:
The amp sat in my garage over winter and this summer I went to install it and when the fuse was connected the amplifier shorted out and shorted some of the transistors on one side of the out put stage of the amp, and a few emitter resistors and a collector resistor went, I replaced all the parts with the exact replacements of the same specs or of higher tollerance. Upon powering the amp back up I was only able to achieve up to 7 volts of output which was very distorted. I then removed all the transistors on the one side of the output bank and powered it up thinking if just one side of the board has an issue, then at least I should be able to achieve at least 30 volts on the outputs, but with a signal being sent to the amp it goes into protect before 3 volts is achieved and there is some rectangular blue plastic incased capacitors mounted in the center of the board between the power supply side of the board and the output side of the board that are clicking internally like a relay that is bouncing back and forth. First I removed the one that was clicking and powered it up again and then another one would click, then I would remove that one also, then another one would click until all of them were removed.
I was advised to look for dust on the coils but did not see any, or any sign of shorting period. I am really quite stumped.
Some pictures of the amp can be available here for reference.
http://intensem1rider.tripod.com/jayzpicpage/
Thanks
I appreciate any help.
Family ordered me the BCAE amp repair dvd for Christmas and am patiently waiting on that to possibly try to figure that stuff out myself.
I'll start from the beginning:
The amp sat in my garage over winter and this summer I went to install it and when the fuse was connected the amplifier shorted out and shorted some of the transistors on one side of the out put stage of the amp, and a few emitter resistors and a collector resistor went, I replaced all the parts with the exact replacements of the same specs or of higher tollerance. Upon powering the amp back up I was only able to achieve up to 7 volts of output which was very distorted. I then removed all the transistors on the one side of the output bank and powered it up thinking if just one side of the board has an issue, then at least I should be able to achieve at least 30 volts on the outputs, but with a signal being sent to the amp it goes into protect before 3 volts is achieved and there is some rectangular blue plastic incased capacitors mounted in the center of the board between the power supply side of the board and the output side of the board that are clicking internally like a relay that is bouncing back and forth. First I removed the one that was clicking and powered it up again and then another one would click, then I would remove that one also, then another one would click until all of them were removed.
I was advised to look for dust on the coils but did not see any, or any sign of shorting period. I am really quite stumped.
Some pictures of the amp can be available here for reference.
http://intensem1rider.tripod.com/jayzpicpage/
Thanks
I appreciate any help.
Family ordered me the BCAE amp repair dvd for Christmas and am patiently waiting on that to possibly try to figure that stuff out myself.
When you receive the DVD, look at the page named 'generic class D - type 1'. It has information on amps using this type of audio circuit (used by JBL, Memphis, Kicker...).
We need to determine if the problem is in the audio section or in the power supply section.
There are photos with transistors installed and transistors missing. Which transistors do you have in the board at this time?
Are any of the transistors heating up when you power up the amp?
If you measure the resistance across the blue capacitors (out of the board), do they read as open?
When you power it up, what is the DC voltage on the third leg (source) of the IRFB31N20Ds?
What is the voltage on the third leg of the IRF9640s?
Place the black meter lead on the secondary center-tap of the transformer (just left of the body of R761) when measuring the voltage on the third leg of the transistors.
What is the DC voltage across the following diodes? These are the orange diodes on the driver board.
D271
D272
D471
D472
Did you replace any of the transistors on the audio driver board?
Can you take a photo of the bottom of the driver board? Zoom in so that you only capture ~1/3 of the driver board in the full frame. All I need to see is from Q981 to the edge of the board. Since you can't post high res images here, email it to me or post it on the tripod site.
babin_perry@yahoo.com
We need to determine if the problem is in the audio section or in the power supply section.
There are photos with transistors installed and transistors missing. Which transistors do you have in the board at this time?
Are any of the transistors heating up when you power up the amp?
If you measure the resistance across the blue capacitors (out of the board), do they read as open?
When you power it up, what is the DC voltage on the third leg (source) of the IRFB31N20Ds?
What is the voltage on the third leg of the IRF9640s?
Place the black meter lead on the secondary center-tap of the transformer (just left of the body of R761) when measuring the voltage on the third leg of the transistors.
What is the DC voltage across the following diodes? These are the orange diodes on the driver board.
D271
D272
D471
D472
Did you replace any of the transistors on the audio driver board?
Can you take a photo of the bottom of the driver board? Zoom in so that you only capture ~1/3 of the driver board in the full frame. All I need to see is from Q981 to the edge of the board. Since you can't post high res images here, email it to me or post it on the tripod site.
babin_perry@yahoo.com
There are photos with transistors installed and transistors missing. Which transistors do you have in the board at this time?
((I have the transistors on one side of the board removed, these were from the side where there were a few shorted originally, 0241, 0214, 0213, 0212, 0211, 0341, 0314, 0313, 0312, 0311) In one of the pictures I posted, the transistors that were bent up were the ones that were shorted))
Are any of the transistors heating up when you power up the amp?
((The only ones heating up are U762, U761, the voltage regulators, and on the driver board R283, R282, R483, R482 got very hot, burnt my finger, they all had 38 volts across them, however R282 have 50.2 volts across it.))
If you measure the resistance across the blue capacitors (out of the board), do they read as open?
((I'll get to this later this weekend when I have a little more time, I will also re solder in the replacement transistors))
When you power it up, what is the DC voltage on the third leg (source) of the IRFB31N20Ds?
((-50.2v on the other side of the board, will test the side that is missing the transistors later this weekend))
What is the voltage on the third leg of the IRF9640s?
((50.2v on the other side of the board, will test the side that is missing the transistors later this weekend))
Place the black meter lead on the secondary center-tap of the transformer (just left of the body of R761) when measuring the voltage on the third leg of the transistors.
(( When I do this my meter only reads a voltage of 50.2v on every other transistor, the other transistors make my meter automatically switch into a frequency test range, yet I was testing with no input signal))
What is the DC voltage across the following diodes? These are the orange diodes on the driver board.
D271 ((.051v)) Im assuming because of the missing transistors?
D272 ((11.93v))
D471 ((11.76v))
D472 ((11.86v))
Did you replace any of the transistors on the audio driver board?
((Nope, didn't even do any testing on there yet until testing those zenier diodes.))
Can you take a photo of the bottom of the driver board? Zoom in so that you only capture ~1/3 of the driver board in the full frame. All I need to see is from Q981 to the edge of the board. Since you can't post high res images here, email it to me or post it on the tripod site.
((Im going to see if my brother can hook me up with a personal web hosting site for my pictures tonight, I am useless when it comes to some computer stuff))
((I have the transistors on one side of the board removed, these were from the side where there were a few shorted originally, 0241, 0214, 0213, 0212, 0211, 0341, 0314, 0313, 0312, 0311) In one of the pictures I posted, the transistors that were bent up were the ones that were shorted))
Are any of the transistors heating up when you power up the amp?
((The only ones heating up are U762, U761, the voltage regulators, and on the driver board R283, R282, R483, R482 got very hot, burnt my finger, they all had 38 volts across them, however R282 have 50.2 volts across it.))
If you measure the resistance across the blue capacitors (out of the board), do they read as open?
((I'll get to this later this weekend when I have a little more time, I will also re solder in the replacement transistors))
When you power it up, what is the DC voltage on the third leg (source) of the IRFB31N20Ds?
((-50.2v on the other side of the board, will test the side that is missing the transistors later this weekend))
What is the voltage on the third leg of the IRF9640s?
((50.2v on the other side of the board, will test the side that is missing the transistors later this weekend))
Place the black meter lead on the secondary center-tap of the transformer (just left of the body of R761) when measuring the voltage on the third leg of the transistors.
(( When I do this my meter only reads a voltage of 50.2v on every other transistor, the other transistors make my meter automatically switch into a frequency test range, yet I was testing with no input signal))
What is the DC voltage across the following diodes? These are the orange diodes on the driver board.
D271 ((.051v)) Im assuming because of the missing transistors?
D272 ((11.93v))
D471 ((11.76v))
D472 ((11.86v))
Did you replace any of the transistors on the audio driver board?
((Nope, didn't even do any testing on there yet until testing those zenier diodes.))
Can you take a photo of the bottom of the driver board? Zoom in so that you only capture ~1/3 of the driver board in the full frame. All I need to see is from Q981 to the edge of the board. Since you can't post high res images here, email it to me or post it on the tripod site.
((Im going to see if my brother can hook me up with a personal web hosting site for my pictures tonight, I am useless when it comes to some computer stuff))
D271 is probably shorted (or has shorted driver transistors across it). These often fail when the outputs fail. Find the driver transistors (probably 4 transistors - 2 parallel emitter follower pairs) connected to this diode and pull them from the board so they can be checked without interference from other components.
There may be open resistors under the board. The 1 ohm resistors commonly fail. In this type of amp, you can generally find the drivers for any goup of outputs by checking for continuity between the gate of the output and the emitter of the drivers. If the 1 ohm resistors are intact, you can find all 4 drivers. If the 1 ohm resistors are open, you will find only 2 of the driver transistors but from there is will be easy to find the other two.
There may be open resistors under the board. The 1 ohm resistors commonly fail. In this type of amp, you can generally find the drivers for any goup of outputs by checking for continuity between the gate of the output and the emitter of the drivers. If the 1 ohm resistors are intact, you can find all 4 drivers. If the 1 ohm resistors are open, you will find only 2 of the driver transistors but from there is will be easy to find the other two.
Well I took a whole bunch of new pictures and posted them on photobucket but it just wont let you zoom in to view the close up, I took 8MP pictures so you could zoom right on in.
Heres the link : http://s249.photobucket.com/albums/gg221/intensem1rider/
If you see a picture that you want a full picture of I can e-mail it to you, unless you have an e-mail account that can handle all the pictures.
I soldered in the transistors again and powered it up and I read identical voltages as the other side of the board so thats a good sign. And I did test the wafer resistors on the bottom of the driver board and a 1 ohm resistor was open (R275) And I think Q274 may have gone with it, but im unsure as I don't know what im testing for in the range of resistances in the transistors.
Heres the link : http://s249.photobucket.com/albums/gg221/intensem1rider/
If you see a picture that you want a full picture of I can e-mail it to you, unless you have an e-mail account that can handle all the pictures.
I soldered in the transistors again and powered it up and I read identical voltages as the other side of the board so thats a good sign. And I did test the wafer resistors on the bottom of the driver board and a 1 ohm resistor was open (R275) And I think Q274 may have gone with it, but im unsure as I don't know what im testing for in the range of resistances in the transistors.
The last link may have not worked, try this: http://s249.photobucket.com/albums/gg221/intensem1rider/
Does your meter have a 'diode check' function?
Email me IMG_0211 in full res. babin_perry@yahoo.com
If Q274 failed, Q284 has likely failed also. Even if it hasn't failed, it must be replaced because the transistors are in parallel and need to be a matched pair.
Email me IMG_0211 in full res. babin_perry@yahoo.com
If Q274 failed, Q284 has likely failed also. Even if it hasn't failed, it must be replaced because the transistors are in parallel and need to be a matched pair.
To remove the SMD resistors, apply new solder to both sides. Heat one side for about 2-3 seconds. When you move the iron to the other side and the solder melts, the resistor should slide off of the pads. Don't push it onto another component or pad.
With your meter on diode check...
If the transistor is a 2SA1023, place the black meter lead on the base (third leg). When you touch the red lead to either of the other legs, the meter should read ~0.6v. If you read something near 0.0v or the meter reads open, the transistor is defective.
There should be no continuity between the emitter and collector (legs 1 and 2). Set the meter to ohms and measure the resistance between the emitter and collector. There should be no continuity between the two no matter the polarity of the leads on the legs.
If the transistor is a 2SC1027, the placement of the black and red leads will be reversed but otherwise the readings will be the same as above.
With your meter on diode check...
If the transistor is a 2SA1023, place the black meter lead on the base (third leg). When you touch the red lead to either of the other legs, the meter should read ~0.6v. If you read something near 0.0v or the meter reads open, the transistor is defective.
There should be no continuity between the emitter and collector (legs 1 and 2). Set the meter to ohms and measure the resistance between the emitter and collector. There should be no continuity between the two no matter the polarity of the leads on the legs.
If the transistor is a 2SC1027, the placement of the black and red leads will be reversed but otherwise the readings will be the same as above.
http://www.mcminone.com/product.asp?product_id=2SA1023&catalog_name=MCMProducts
Mouser will have the resistors and zener diodes. Order extras of each.
Did you check 'all' of the gate resistors on the outputs to make sure they were within tolerance?
Were the 2SC1027s (Q273 and Q283) OK?
Mouser will have the resistors and zener diodes. Order extras of each.
Did you check 'all' of the gate resistors on the outputs to make sure they were within tolerance?
Were the 2SC1027s (Q273 and Q283) OK?
I checked every single resistor and focused on the ones were looking at and all but that one read 1 ohm.
I did check the Q273,Q283, I had a reading around 0.5 volts with the neg on the 3rd leg and pos on the middle (2nd leg), but nothing on the 1st leg, but I was testing those while in the board.
Is there a specific physical size/tolerance/power rating I should be looking for when it comes to the resistor, there seems to be many size variations available. it measures around 0.128" or 3.29mm long.
I did check the Q273,Q283, I had a reading around 0.5 volts with the neg on the 3rd leg and pos on the middle (2nd leg), but nothing on the 1st leg, but I was testing those while in the board.
Is there a specific physical size/tolerance/power rating I should be looking for when it comes to the resistor, there seems to be many size variations available. it measures around 0.128" or 3.29mm long.
If the resistor measures 0.128", it's either a 1206 (0.120" x 0.060") or a 1210 (0.120 x 0.100). Select whichever they are as the size when searching. From the photo, it appears that they may be 1210s. If you have a dial caliper, use that to measure them.
The tolerance isn't really important If the value on the originals is 1R0, it's a 5% component. Replace both of the 1 ohm resistors that were connected to the failed 2SA1023s.
If you read an open circuit on the 2SC1027s when you had the red lead on the 3rd leg and the black lead on the first leg, the transistor is defective. It should have read near 0.6v.
The tolerance isn't really important If the value on the originals is 1R0, it's a 5% component. Replace both of the 1 ohm resistors that were connected to the failed 2SA1023s.
If you read an open circuit on the 2SC1027s when you had the red lead on the 3rd leg and the black lead on the first leg, the transistor is defective. It should have read near 0.6v.
I re-tested the 2SC1027s , I tested them backwards earlier, they are fine when I test them properly. Amazing how that works...
Im going to order about 6 of each transistor and about 10 resistors just to have them on hand. I already have the 12 volt Zener diodes lying around from a power supply project from school.
Anything else I should look into before ordering?
Im going to order about 6 of each transistor and about 10 resistors just to have them on hand. I already have the 12 volt Zener diodes lying around from a power supply project from school.
Anything else I should look into before ordering?
I can't think of any other parts you'd need. Get the parts in it and power it up. Remember to have ALL of the power semiconductors clamped tightly to the sink when you power it up. If there is a problem, you can destroy lots of parts if the transistors are not clamped down. Have a 15 amp fuse in the B+ line when you power it up.
You may want to make sure that all of the insulators are intact. You should also order a tube of heatsink compound.
You may want to make sure that all of the insulators are intact. You should also order a tube of heatsink compound.
I received your amplifier repair dvd and now im looking to buy some broken amps off e-bay to work on over the year to gain knowledge while going through your dvd and such.
I have found some great deals on these amps below, what would you recommend I start with and stay away from since im a level 1/2 repairer I guess.
Rockford P450.2
Rockford RF2002
Rockford P250.2
Rockford Punch 501S
Rockford Punch 120.2
Hifonics BX2005D
Alpine MRP-M450
Alpine MRP-F250
Kenwood KAC-929
Bazooka ELA500.1
Of course im looking for the best turn around profit margin, I would like to sell them and in turn use that money to buy equipment such as an Oscilloscope and such.
I have found some great deals on these amps below, what would you recommend I start with and stay away from since im a level 1/2 repairer I guess.
Rockford P450.2
Rockford RF2002
Rockford P250.2
Rockford Punch 501S
Rockford Punch 120.2
Hifonics BX2005D
Alpine MRP-M450
Alpine MRP-F250
Kenwood KAC-929
Bazooka ELA500.1
Of course im looking for the best turn around profit margin, I would like to sell them and in turn use that money to buy equipment such as an Oscilloscope and such.
The bazooka and the kenwood are probably going to be the easiest but they're probably not worth much.
I don't have much experience with the newer alpines but alpine sometimes uses relatively complex discrete circuits which can make troubleshooting difficult for those who are new to repair work. They do offer service manuals though which can make things easier (but is also an extra expense). In the newer amps, they epoxy the SMD components to the board so that can make it a bit more difficult to check/replace the components.
The class D Hifonics will probably be easy to repair if there isn't extensive damage to the driver board.
The punch amps are generally easy but you'll have to deal with SMD components and the MEHSA strips. Rockford also provides schematics for amps that are out of production.
Email me and I'll point you to relavent information on the disc.
I don't have much experience with the newer alpines but alpine sometimes uses relatively complex discrete circuits which can make troubleshooting difficult for those who are new to repair work. They do offer service manuals though which can make things easier (but is also an extra expense). In the newer amps, they epoxy the SMD components to the board so that can make it a bit more difficult to check/replace the components.
The class D Hifonics will probably be easy to repair if there isn't extensive damage to the driver board.
The punch amps are generally easy but you'll have to deal with SMD components and the MEHSA strips. Rockford also provides schematics for amps that are out of production.
Email me and I'll point you to relavent information on the disc.
Well looks like that got the Crossfire working again. I have it completely put back together hooked up on the bench with a 2 ohm load getting tested right now, I have it on a 50 hz tone and it seems to be playing distortion free for the last 15 min. I'll install it in my truck and give it a run for it's money later today and report back.
- Status
- This old topic is closed. If you want to reopen this topic, contact a moderator using the "Report Post" button.