Controversial topic but I'll ask: In your experience, is it worth upgrading coupling caps? I'm debating this for a Bottlehead Moreplay, which sounds good built stock. But maybe we can make it a bit smoother, warmer, etc. sounding ... (?)
First question, what do orange drop caps sound like versus other caps you've compared them to?
From previous personal experience, there's a lot of expensive caps out there that aren't worth the cost or trouble (a lot of these caps are really big and heavy).
Second question: if it's worthwhile in your experience, any recommendations? Auricaps seem like a good bet for their sonics, light weight and small size, for example. I don't mind spending decent money on, say, Vcap Odams or Jupiters (which worked well for series on tweeters), but curious to know your experiences with tube coupling application
First question, what do orange drop caps sound like versus other caps you've compared them to?
From previous personal experience, there's a lot of expensive caps out there that aren't worth the cost or trouble (a lot of these caps are really big and heavy).
Second question: if it's worthwhile in your experience, any recommendations? Auricaps seem like a good bet for their sonics, light weight and small size, for example. I don't mind spending decent money on, say, Vcap Odams or Jupiters (which worked well for series on tweeters), but curious to know your experiences with tube coupling application
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I use Auricaps for the output in my old Foreplay. Never really gave much thought to changing them, as I'm supposed to building a new pre. 🙂
jeff
jeff
Whether different capacitors will improve your sound depends on several things. Including what music you prefer, your speakers and listing space, your system's overall sensitivity and quality, and what caps you have now. In general plastic dielectric capacitors tend to pass high frequencies easier then paper/oil types do. The better the plastic (polycarbonate, polypropylene, teflon) the easier the highs come through. This change can be subtle depending on both where the capacitor is used as well as your ears. Filter circuits, like RIAA equalizing, can be more pronounced when changing dielectrics while keeping original values. I avoid expensive highfalutin brands, which are more for pampering your ego and showin' off, and stick to quality name makes like Rifa, Wima, Roederstein, ERO, Sprague (TRW) etc.
If you want a real education on capacitors read this 40 year old article, especially part two.
If you want a real education on capacitors read this 40 year old article, especially part two.
If you want smoother and warmer, I'd recommend the Mundorf Supreme (just plain Supreme). They're affordable and they throw a nice deep soundstage, very natural top end.
I use X2 rated polypropylene safety capacitors. But as long as the coupling caps aren't cheap ceramic discs, just enjoy the music 🙂
I have an evolving opinion about this. I borrowed a friends Moreplay that was built with 3.3 uF Audyn-Cap Plus 800 VDC capacitors bypassed with Dueland Copper Foil 0.01 uF caps. The Audyn is $13 each and the Duelands are $24 each. That build sounded fantastic and outperformed my Cary SLP-70 and Cary SLP-03 preamps but was not as good as my PS Audio BHK preamp. I decided to build my own Moreplay preamp and wanted to upgrade the parts in the hopes it performed on par with the BHK at a tenth the price. I used Shinko resistors and a Mundorf 150uF Mylytic cap in place of the Nichicon electrolytic. I also ordered V-Cap ODAM 2.2uF 400 VDC and Dueland Copper Bypass caps but they took a while to come so initially I built it with the stock orange drop caps.
After I built the Moreplay with upgraded resistors and that one electrolytic cap but with the stock orange drop I was able to compare it to the Moreplay with the Audyn Plus caps and Dueland bypass caps since I had two sets of GE 6V6GT tubes. I also had an RCA switch which made it easy to do nearly real time A/B comparisons which I think is essential to drawing any real conclusions. I burned in my Moreplay build for 24 hours before doing any critical listening. My conclusion was the Moreplay with the Audyn caps was very slightly better. That Moreplay build had a touch more presence or pop or dynamics with a very slightly more detailed high end. Differences were small but noticeable with careful listening. I doubt you could reliably tell which was which without an A/B switch.
Next I replaced the stock orange drop caps in my Moreplay and put in the ODAMs and Dueland bypass caps and let that burn in for 24 hours. Doing the same comparison I found it nearly impossible to tell the unit with the ODAMs apart from the unit with the Audyn caps ($100/cap difference!). If you held a gun to my head I would actually express a preference for the unit with the Audyn caps but honestly the differences were so trivial they could be due to different tubes, power cords, RCA cables etc.. I am older so any differences about 11-12 kHz wouldn't be audible to me.
Talking about that with my friend who lent me his Moreplay, he said the ODAMs required at least 100-200 hours of burn in to shine. Since then I have been running that Moreplay non-stop and will make a careful comparison again on Monday when it should be well past 100 hours. I'll try and remember to post my conclusions. But for now I will say three things. The first is the Moreplay is a fantastic preamp. The second is which 6V6 tube you use probably makes more of a difference than which resistors or capacitors you use. Also, many 6V6s are highly microphonic or have hum and I returned two pair for that. Finally, upgrading the capacitors does make at least a small improvement to the sound quality but I have no way of knowing how much of that is due to using a better film cap vs adding in the Dueland bypass capacitors.
After I built the Moreplay with upgraded resistors and that one electrolytic cap but with the stock orange drop I was able to compare it to the Moreplay with the Audyn Plus caps and Dueland bypass caps since I had two sets of GE 6V6GT tubes. I also had an RCA switch which made it easy to do nearly real time A/B comparisons which I think is essential to drawing any real conclusions. I burned in my Moreplay build for 24 hours before doing any critical listening. My conclusion was the Moreplay with the Audyn caps was very slightly better. That Moreplay build had a touch more presence or pop or dynamics with a very slightly more detailed high end. Differences were small but noticeable with careful listening. I doubt you could reliably tell which was which without an A/B switch.
Next I replaced the stock orange drop caps in my Moreplay and put in the ODAMs and Dueland bypass caps and let that burn in for 24 hours. Doing the same comparison I found it nearly impossible to tell the unit with the ODAMs apart from the unit with the Audyn caps ($100/cap difference!). If you held a gun to my head I would actually express a preference for the unit with the Audyn caps but honestly the differences were so trivial they could be due to different tubes, power cords, RCA cables etc.. I am older so any differences about 11-12 kHz wouldn't be audible to me.
Talking about that with my friend who lent me his Moreplay, he said the ODAMs required at least 100-200 hours of burn in to shine. Since then I have been running that Moreplay non-stop and will make a careful comparison again on Monday when it should be well past 100 hours. I'll try and remember to post my conclusions. But for now I will say three things. The first is the Moreplay is a fantastic preamp. The second is which 6V6 tube you use probably makes more of a difference than which resistors or capacitors you use. Also, many 6V6s are highly microphonic or have hum and I returned two pair for that. Finally, upgrading the capacitors does make at least a small improvement to the sound quality but I have no way of knowing how much of that is due to using a better film cap vs adding in the Dueland bypass capacitors.
Oh PLEASE, not again.
A Trillion inconclusive threads on the same non subject, can´t you use the SEARCH function?
Why do we have to endlessly reread the same regurgitated babble, over and over?
Of course they attract True Believers like moths to a candle.
A cap is a cap is a cap and unless GROSSLY incompetent, is transparent.
And IF it changes sound, it´s defective.
Randomly throwing parts at design is placebo effect, also known as "magic belief".
A Trillion inconclusive threads on the same non subject, can´t you use the SEARCH function?
Why do we have to endlessly reread the same regurgitated babble, over and over?
Of course they attract True Believers like moths to a candle.
A cap is a cap is a cap and unless GROSSLY incompetent, is transparent.
And IF it changes sound, it´s defective.
You can always do that, through design changes; are you qualified?
Randomly throwing parts at design is placebo effect, also known as "magic belief".
Don't you love it when a troll comes along and feels the need to sh*t all over a thread.
I've always used Russian teflon coupling caps - FT-2/3 and K72. I just have 0.1uF versions so have to parallel them to get higher values, which is VERY bulky, but cheap. I really need to try out some others in the 4.7uF to 1uF range and try the teflons as bypasses.
I'm wondering about DC Link capacitors like Vishay and Kemet. Anyone tried those?
I'm wondering about DC Link capacitors like Vishay and Kemet. Anyone tried those?
There's a difference between saying ...
"in my opinion capacitors are transparent and have no specific sound so it doesn't matter which you choose"
and saying ...
"Oh PLEASE, not again, can´t you use the SEARCH function? Why do we have to endlessly reread the same regurgitated babble, over and over? Of course they attract True Believers like moths to a candle. A cap is a cap is a cap and unless GROSSLY incompetent is transparent.And IF it changes sound, it´s defective. You can always (make it warmer or smoother) through design changes; are you qualified? Randomly throwing parts at design is placebo effect, also known as "magic belief".
Notice the shouting, questioning the qualifications of posters, and calling their sincerely meant posts "regurgitated babble", "throwing parts at design" and just a product of placebo "magic belief".
JM Fahey may be a very well qualified engineer with much to contribute, but the tone could do with some more thought and sensitivity to forum members.
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"JM Fahey may be a very well qualified engineer with much to contribute, but the tone could do with some more thought and sensitivity to forum members."
Certainly yes but that doesn't make it a troll.
He often has very clear-cut opinions but like many here, myself included, it is the fruit of several years of experience and observations,
In the end, people express themselves in different ways and those who read feel in different ways, that's the difficulty of being in writing without knowing people for real.
Certainly yes but that doesn't make it a troll.
He often has very clear-cut opinions but like many here, myself included, it is the fruit of several years of experience and observations,
In the end, people express themselves in different ways and those who read feel in different ways, that's the difficulty of being in writing without knowing people for real.
Notice we are not calling his posts "regurgitated babble" or "do we have to endlessly re-read the statement that capacitors make no difference to the sound".....
And don't you accept that engineers and professional musicians who do hear differences in capacitors also have "several years of experience and observations"?
I think JM Fahey's point is that this has been discussed ad nauseam. Search and ye shall find .... It's like a political discussion where advocates of both sides cannot be persuaded.
I've been using Mundorf Alum Oil caps in my builds. I hear a little less "smearing" of details using them over basic orange drop or "yellow tube caps" and IMHO are reasonably priced considering the % of cost they add to a tube amp build ~$30. I honestly didn't care much for the Miflex caps I tried, and like you said, these are big and heavy. And while I really don't buy into a lot of the snake oil things and think ideas like burning in speaker wires is silly, these coupling caps do change some after 24 hours of use.
I came to this conclusion A-B testing otherwise identical amps (and also testing with otherwise identical phono stages) and while the difference is minor, and as another poster said, there are other components that make more overall difference, I'm not sure I can "tweak" back the detail lost to the smearing I hear using ultra cheap coupling caps. Like many things in life, I feel there are diminishing returns between $15 Mundorfs and some $500 boutique caps.
I came to this conclusion A-B testing otherwise identical amps (and also testing with otherwise identical phono stages) and while the difference is minor, and as another poster said, there are other components that make more overall difference, I'm not sure I can "tweak" back the detail lost to the smearing I hear using ultra cheap coupling caps. Like many things in life, I feel there are diminishing returns between $15 Mundorfs and some $500 boutique caps.
Easier solution is don't click on the thread title if you don't want to read it. No one is forcing anyone to read anything, and more time was spent typing out this hostile response than it would take someone to read the whole thread 🙂
I found the answers so far interesting and I value new opinions on old topics. Likely almost anything someone wants to ask on any forum at some point has been answered by someone with enough searching. Doesn't mean that a question that may have been asked in the past should be banned.
I've never responded to a thread on this topic. There are new folks reading here with possible different experiences on products that may not have been available in the past etc. as well. It's simple enough to just not click on a topic unless, like a moth to a flame, it's a trigger for someone and they have to?
So by this logic, we all should be using the cheapest output transformers and speakers we can find...