I have been lurking on this site for ages. I decided to join when I was in the middle of building my first speaker project, a pair of 2-way Crites Cornscalas. I deviated significantly from the traditional Cornscala "look", but I believe I ended up with a fine-sounding speaker. I have learned a lot from reading posts in this forum. I would be happy to share my experiences, if anyone is interested. I would alos love to hear from others with Cornscala experience.
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i think a minidsp 2x4 (or HD) would be the best upgrade for stuff like this. not sure about the 2-way, but the 3way dont have much more than level padding on the compression drivers and a very soft slope 6db? 500 rolloff on the mid. broke mine several times quite easily. no freq attenuation or anything as farr as i know? wouldnt the horn fall off quite a bit on-axis in the high-end?
Can't go wrong with "Basic Black", especially with your excellent finish work.
Cites website: "With testing here in our shop, we decided on 500hz for the crossover point. "
Since the Cornscala D crossover at 500Hz = 27" wavelength, some 2-box builders keep the top horn box the same 25.5" width as the woofer box. If you built the Cites crossover, it was probably tuned for a 25.5" wide box. The tweeter adjustments on the Cites crossover might be adequate to cover your difference in tweeter box width. If you have leftover absorption material, you might experiment with putting some around your horn box and listen/measure for soundstage differences.
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Hi multi. I finally did enough research to respond. 🙂
Thank you for introducing me to the mindsp. It seems like a serious bit of kit. A few years ago I was considering biamping, but biamping seems of little use without active crossovers, and back then the cost seemed too high for me to experiment with.
Have you used the minidsp? Is the sound quality good? It seems very reasonably priced for the high level of functionality. I do not like to put more than is necessary in the signal path, but I might give the minidsp a go.
Yes, the CD's are quite a bit more efficient than the woofers, and I think there may not be enough attenuation, although this seems somewhat source-dependent. I know some people prefer the ALK crosovers, which I think have steeper slope than the Crites. Even ALK's "economy" x-over are US$320 a pair, so I am in no hurry to try them. ALK's "steep slope" option is around the US$1K mark. I am sure they are good value, I just don't have that kind of money to shell out on an "experiment".
If I bought the minidsp, I could experiment with various x-over slopes, play with attenuation, and use it to biamp, when I can afford a new amp. Hmmm....
My only reservation is that I am sure that Bob Crites knows a lot more about designing crossovers than I do, and I think it may take a lot of experimenting to do better than stock. He could have designed the crossovers any way he liked, and he must have chose to do them the way he did for a reason. However, I guess there would be no harm in duplicating the x-over parameters of both ALK and Crites with the minidsp to compare them.
Yes, the CD's roll off a bit above about 12K, according to the manufacturer, down about 5dB@13K and -10dB@14K. My ears roll off to zero somewhere between 15 and 16K(!), so I do not worry after that. Crites told me that he could hear a difference between the two and three-way Cornscala in the top end, but that the difference was small. I thought the cost (in terms of complexity) of adding another driver outweighed the benefit. Many others also seem to prefer the 2-way. I find the sound of cymbals, for instance, on most jazz recordings to come across realistically with my two-ways. So I am not too worried about boosting high frequency performance at the moment.
Finally, when you say "broke mine several times quite easily", do you mean you blew the CD?
Thank you for introducing me to the mindsp. It seems like a serious bit of kit. A few years ago I was considering biamping, but biamping seems of little use without active crossovers, and back then the cost seemed too high for me to experiment with.
Have you used the minidsp? Is the sound quality good? It seems very reasonably priced for the high level of functionality. I do not like to put more than is necessary in the signal path, but I might give the minidsp a go.
Yes, the CD's are quite a bit more efficient than the woofers, and I think there may not be enough attenuation, although this seems somewhat source-dependent. I know some people prefer the ALK crosovers, which I think have steeper slope than the Crites. Even ALK's "economy" x-over are US$320 a pair, so I am in no hurry to try them. ALK's "steep slope" option is around the US$1K mark. I am sure they are good value, I just don't have that kind of money to shell out on an "experiment".
If I bought the minidsp, I could experiment with various x-over slopes, play with attenuation, and use it to biamp, when I can afford a new amp. Hmmm....
My only reservation is that I am sure that Bob Crites knows a lot more about designing crossovers than I do, and I think it may take a lot of experimenting to do better than stock. He could have designed the crossovers any way he liked, and he must have chose to do them the way he did for a reason. However, I guess there would be no harm in duplicating the x-over parameters of both ALK and Crites with the minidsp to compare them.
Yes, the CD's roll off a bit above about 12K, according to the manufacturer, down about 5dB@13K and -10dB@14K. My ears roll off to zero somewhere between 15 and 16K(!), so I do not worry after that. Crites told me that he could hear a difference between the two and three-way Cornscala in the top end, but that the difference was small. I thought the cost (in terms of complexity) of adding another driver outweighed the benefit. Many others also seem to prefer the 2-way. I find the sound of cymbals, for instance, on most jazz recordings to come across realistically with my two-ways. So I am not too worried about boosting high frequency performance at the moment.
Finally, when you say "broke mine several times quite easily", do you mean you blew the CD?
Thanks for the compliment, LineSource. I can only take responsibility for the prep work under the paint.
I just composed a rather lengthy reply to yours, but I clicked the wrong button, and it went to internet heaven... 🙁
Suffice it to say that I was under the impression that size the horn cabinets didn't matter much, but I could be wrong. I, like many others, listened to mine with no cabinets at all. I do have some rock wool sound insulation laying around; maybe I will experiment a bit.
What did make a huge difference in the sound stage was when I dampened the resonances in my horn by placing a 4kg bag of 1mm river sand on top of the cabinets. They snapped into focus!
Now the speakers soundstage very well. I know it is a cliché, but when you close your eyes and listen, the speaker really do disappear. One thing I have had to get used to is the “fullness” of the sound. I wouldn’t say the Cornscalas sound “cluttered” but I am used to a lot more open and airy sound. I find the open sound pleasant, but I am pretty sure the fullness I find in the Cornscala is more natural.
I take it the photo is of yours? I have no experience with veneering, but I knew enough about it to know I didn't what to attempt veneering mine myself. Yours look beautiful!
I just composed a rather lengthy reply to yours, but I clicked the wrong button, and it went to internet heaven... 🙁
Suffice it to say that I was under the impression that size the horn cabinets didn't matter much, but I could be wrong. I, like many others, listened to mine with no cabinets at all. I do have some rock wool sound insulation laying around; maybe I will experiment a bit.
What did make a huge difference in the sound stage was when I dampened the resonances in my horn by placing a 4kg bag of 1mm river sand on top of the cabinets. They snapped into focus!
Now the speakers soundstage very well. I know it is a cliché, but when you close your eyes and listen, the speaker really do disappear. One thing I have had to get used to is the “fullness” of the sound. I wouldn’t say the Cornscalas sound “cluttered” but I am used to a lot more open and airy sound. I find the open sound pleasant, but I am pretty sure the fullness I find in the Cornscala is more natural.
I take it the photo is of yours? I have no experience with veneering, but I knew enough about it to know I didn't what to attempt veneering mine myself. Yours look beautiful!
Thanks for the pics and the post. This is new one for me, Looks like a great project and straight forward design.
Amps are also way more affordable than they used to be. This here is a decent amp. Currently on a special. I have a couple of these.
Dayton Audio DTA-120 Class T Mini Amplifier 60 WPC
You can get a basic active crossover + USB mic from miniDSP for $200.
If you're keen to try: buy a miniDSP. If you don't like it, sell it on to me (I could do with another).
Hi Hollow
Hard to get a better recommendation than that... I was shocked when I heard about the miniDSP gear. The last time I looked (a few years ago) devices suitable for active crossovers for hifi were about 10X as expensive. I realise in the grand scheme of things $200 is a low price for anything hifi, but I suppose it is the low price that partly gives rise to my scepticism. That is why I wanted to solicit some opinions. I mean I wouldn't lash out even for $200, if there was no hope it would be a good option.
All that said, I have not read anything but praise for the miniDSP. Mind you, most of the reviews have been from people using them for Home Theatre, which is not really my thing.
I am sensitive to digital artifacts. No CD player I could afford ever sounded good to me (in my system or those of others). I never left vinyl behind. About a year ago, I was given an Audiolabs QDAC. This has outstripped the quality of my current vinyl rig. Especially with high density files, I am pleased with the sound. I have found many CDs that sound really good to, when ripped to my HD and played back through the QDAC. This suggests to me that my problems with CDs in the past have more to do with DA conversion and the quality of the source material than anything inherent to digital technology per se.
So, my only remaining reservation is whether the AD and DA conversion in the miniDSP will be up to the task.
I have thought about trying a T-amp for some time now. And, yes, they are cheap too. I do not need anything like 60WPC. I would prefer low noise, and crystalline transparency at 2-10WPC. I may still go the T-amp route to experiment. Longer term, this is what I have my eye on as soon as I can find funds: DECware Zen Triode SE84UFO The DECWARE Zen Triode SET Amplifier model SE84UFO / SUPERZEN
It is quite a bit more expensive than a T-amp, but in the scheme of things still budget hifi. It should have gobs of power to drive my mid/high-range horns; their sensitivity is 109dB.
I will let you know if I make the move and the miniDSP is not good enough!
Hard to get a better recommendation than that... I was shocked when I heard about the miniDSP gear. The last time I looked (a few years ago) devices suitable for active crossovers for hifi were about 10X as expensive. I realise in the grand scheme of things $200 is a low price for anything hifi, but I suppose it is the low price that partly gives rise to my scepticism. That is why I wanted to solicit some opinions. I mean I wouldn't lash out even for $200, if there was no hope it would be a good option.
All that said, I have not read anything but praise for the miniDSP. Mind you, most of the reviews have been from people using them for Home Theatre, which is not really my thing.
I am sensitive to digital artifacts. No CD player I could afford ever sounded good to me (in my system or those of others). I never left vinyl behind. About a year ago, I was given an Audiolabs QDAC. This has outstripped the quality of my current vinyl rig. Especially with high density files, I am pleased with the sound. I have found many CDs that sound really good to, when ripped to my HD and played back through the QDAC. This suggests to me that my problems with CDs in the past have more to do with DA conversion and the quality of the source material than anything inherent to digital technology per se.
So, my only remaining reservation is whether the AD and DA conversion in the miniDSP will be up to the task.
I have thought about trying a T-amp for some time now. And, yes, they are cheap too. I do not need anything like 60WPC. I would prefer low noise, and crystalline transparency at 2-10WPC. I may still go the T-amp route to experiment. Longer term, this is what I have my eye on as soon as I can find funds: DECware Zen Triode SE84UFO The DECWARE Zen Triode SET Amplifier model SE84UFO / SUPERZEN
It is quite a bit more expensive than a T-amp, but in the scheme of things still budget hifi. It should have gobs of power to drive my mid/high-range horns; their sensitivity is 109dB.
I will let you know if I make the move and the miniDSP is not good enough!
PS I just spent the past hour reading about your Artichoke Horn build...wow...what else can I say? I guess the upside is that you do not have to worry about room reflections. I guess the downside is when you want to listen on a cold rainy night. Although I suppose serviceable golf brolly can be had for $10 or so... It is a shame the council put the kybosh on your container speaker plans; that looked really cool.
Hi Pano. New? Really? I thought everyone interested in DIY speakers knew about the Cornscala. I read lots of good things about it on the net while I was researching it. Of course my view is somewhat coloured by the fact that I was searching specifically for info on that specific design. Here is a link to the designer. Cornscala Style D | Critesspeakers.com
Yes, it is straightforward as can be, especially in its 2-way version. I favour simplicity from the perspective of general principles. But simplicity was essential for this newbie builder. I don't think I made any major eff-ups. I am happy with the result, and they sound much better than what they replaced.
I am a bit of an inveterate tinkerer; so, I am busily tweaking the sound. So far, I have made significant improvements in detail and sound staging with a bit of sand and some externally placed sound insulation. I hate the way it looks, but the sound improvements have been serious. Oh well, maybe one day I will be able to make the improvements look better...
Details later, if anyone is interested.
Thanks for the feedback.
Yes, it is straightforward as can be, especially in its 2-way version. I favour simplicity from the perspective of general principles. But simplicity was essential for this newbie builder. I don't think I made any major eff-ups. I am happy with the result, and they sound much better than what they replaced.
I am a bit of an inveterate tinkerer; so, I am busily tweaking the sound. So far, I have made significant improvements in detail and sound staging with a bit of sand and some externally placed sound insulation. I hate the way it looks, but the sound improvements have been serious. Oh well, maybe one day I will be able to make the improvements look better...
Details later, if anyone is interested.
Thanks for the feedback.
Horn tweaks
I did the experiment suggested by LineSource, who suggested that my modification of the width of the horn baffle may have had a sonic effect. Pillowcases housing a 25x35cm pieces of Bradford Soundscreen 2.0 rockwool sound insulation now sit beside my horn cabinets as shown in the attached photo.
There was a positive effect on soundstaging and detail resolution. However, I am unsure that the pillow actually mimics the effect of a wider horn cabinet (per LineSource's suggestion). I suspect not. I surmise that the pillows are absorbing reflections. I am not sure where the reflections are coming from. I can see three obvious potential sources: the edge of the horn's mouth, the edge of the cabinet, the side of the cabinet. I suppose reflections from any or all of these sources would muddy the sound. Although I hate the way the pillows look, they will stay for the time being. 😎
In the longer term, I was thinking of experimenting with some sort of foam surround to my horns, like this guy did:
http://www.enjoythemusic.com/diy/0412/foaming_at_the_mouth.htm
I hope my attempts will look a bit better...
At the moment the big stumbling block is sourcing raw material. I want something effective and cheap, in appropriate quantities. Most sound absorption panels available locally seem pricey and available only in large quantities. I only need one piece, about a metre squared. Its hard for me to find anything under $100, and I was hoping to spend around $20. Has anyone had experience fabricating foam surrounds like this?
BTW the red pillowcase on top covers 4kg of 1mm river sand. An earlier experiment showed improvement in soundstaging and detail when I put a bag of sand on top of the cabinet. This reduced horn resonance substantially. One day I might find a way to get a similar result with the sand inside the box... The improvement provided by the sand was of a similar sort as the improvement provided by the sound absorption, but the sand has a bigger effect.
I did the experiment suggested by LineSource, who suggested that my modification of the width of the horn baffle may have had a sonic effect. Pillowcases housing a 25x35cm pieces of Bradford Soundscreen 2.0 rockwool sound insulation now sit beside my horn cabinets as shown in the attached photo.
There was a positive effect on soundstaging and detail resolution. However, I am unsure that the pillow actually mimics the effect of a wider horn cabinet (per LineSource's suggestion). I suspect not. I surmise that the pillows are absorbing reflections. I am not sure where the reflections are coming from. I can see three obvious potential sources: the edge of the horn's mouth, the edge of the cabinet, the side of the cabinet. I suppose reflections from any or all of these sources would muddy the sound. Although I hate the way the pillows look, they will stay for the time being. 😎
In the longer term, I was thinking of experimenting with some sort of foam surround to my horns, like this guy did:
http://www.enjoythemusic.com/diy/0412/foaming_at_the_mouth.htm
I hope my attempts will look a bit better...
At the moment the big stumbling block is sourcing raw material. I want something effective and cheap, in appropriate quantities. Most sound absorption panels available locally seem pricey and available only in large quantities. I only need one piece, about a metre squared. Its hard for me to find anything under $100, and I was hoping to spend around $20. Has anyone had experience fabricating foam surrounds like this?
BTW the red pillowcase on top covers 4kg of 1mm river sand. An earlier experiment showed improvement in soundstaging and detail when I put a bag of sand on top of the cabinet. This reduced horn resonance substantially. One day I might find a way to get a similar result with the sand inside the box... The improvement provided by the sand was of a similar sort as the improvement provided by the sound absorption, but the sand has a bigger effect.
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![20170908_114132[1].jpg](/community/data/attachments/578/578823-f3cb3e05c5299efd964384051589088b.jpg?hash=88s-BcUpnv)
PS: I tried sound absorption on both sides of the horn box (at once), and the pillow on the outsides seemed to have little effect
Yep, new to me - tho the name is familiar. Surprising because it's the sort of speaker I like, simple 2 way with a horn and a 12 or 15 inch woofer. Just can't keep track of them all the cool speaker projects, I guess. 🙂
Your pillows are likely smoothing the response from your horn by killing the edge diffraction. I've done the same thing on Altec horns using beach towels or bubble wrap. Similar effects can be achieved with hard materials, as long as they are curved the right way. About 45 years ago Mr Iwata (of horn fame) built a lot of horns with soft termination. Apparently something he came up with designing tunnels for high speed trains.
There is a thread about the subject somewhere, not sure I could find it. From 2006 or there about.
Hi Pano. Yea, the Cornscala started off as a three-way. It is a bit of a legend in the Klipsch community. Many think it sounds better than either the Lascala or Cornwall. When Bob Crites discovered the Faital Horn and driver that the two-way uses he decided to design the speaker I based mine on. (Bob Crites is a bit of a legend himself.) The faital hf140 is pretty flat from .5 to 12KHz, so with a bit of sacrifice (down about 5dB @ 14KHz) at the top end you gain the simplicity (and transparency?) of a two-way. Seems a number of
Mostly I'm not. To me, electronics sound bad or good, and the good stuff is interchangeable ...so what I like might not work for you.
Some users complained of noise, possibly from bad power supplies in their PC or Mac.
Mine has some hiss & splutter when hooked to the USB port of one computer ...but is silent when plugged into other computers, or powered by a wall wart, or powered by a battery.
Out there, I use a 12V battery + miniDSP + one of these
TRENDS AUDIO TA10.2P power amplifier
When I play uncompressed WAV files (downloaded from Bandcamp and played back via a digital Walkman), it sounds good. When I play mp3 files from a laptop, it sounds clearly inferior. I'm not sure if the soundcard or the compression is to blame, but the miniDSP seems benign / is not the weak link.
This 2nd system is why I'd like a 2nd miniDSP - I'm currently moving a single unit back and forth.
It is a weekender property, so I simply don't go out if the weather is terrible.
Not a kybosh. I just got annoyed at the idea of paying just over $1500 to get 'building' approval for a pre-built object ...particularly when it is one of the most standardised and widely used manufactured objects on the planet.
Anyway, I'm reconsidering this. I might just swallow my irritation, pay up, and get a pair of containers - to make the fee more worthwhile, and to get stereo bass.
I've been thinking along similar lines.
Bunnings has acoustic pinboard which is $90 for a full sheet (1200*2400) . It cuts and handles cleanly, and it looks OK.
This place here:
A & R Secondhand Dealers 1485 Sydney Road, Campbellfield 3061
...has what I think is the same stuff advertised for $5 a sheet.
There may be a similar dealer near you.
You could brace the horn, and put the sandbag directly on the horn. Or paint the horn back surface with goo. Or just fill the entire box (with sand, expanding foam, concrete, bitumen...)
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