Thought that I should report my latest fun with the "big-rig".
Uncoiled a "2mm square" (14AWG?) inductor and cut it in 1.2 meter lengths. Connected these bare/naked copper foil/ribbons to my speakers and experienced the best sounding cables so far in my book.
I have not done any A/B tests yet but will do soon.
Earlier I have tried Red Dawn, $1600 AudioQuests and several other cables, these are the best so far. They sound a little cleaner, more resolved than other cables I´ve tried. It´s like the high range is "cleaned up" and also the low level resolution seems to be better in the mids and high´s.
Must compare back and forth a couple of times with the old cables to make sure I´m not fooling myself
. But there seems to be a not so small improvement.
It takes 10 minutes to make these cables and a coil is about $15!
My friend with the $1600 Audioquests did sound a little bit worried on the phone when I told him about this cheap, simple solution. 😀
/Peter
Uncoiled a "2mm square" (14AWG?) inductor and cut it in 1.2 meter lengths. Connected these bare/naked copper foil/ribbons to my speakers and experienced the best sounding cables so far in my book.
I have not done any A/B tests yet but will do soon.
Earlier I have tried Red Dawn, $1600 AudioQuests and several other cables, these are the best so far. They sound a little cleaner, more resolved than other cables I´ve tried. It´s like the high range is "cleaned up" and also the low level resolution seems to be better in the mids and high´s.
Must compare back and forth a couple of times with the old cables to make sure I´m not fooling myself
. But there seems to be a not so small improvement.It takes 10 minutes to make these cables and a coil is about $15!
My friend with the $1600 Audioquests did sound a little bit worried on the phone when I told him about this cheap, simple solution. 😀
/Peter
Great, now I have to go out and buy more Alpha-Core inductors. I hope you are happy!
Great and simple idea. I am going to have to try it. What did you do so seperate the conductors? I was thinking that double sided foam tape may be interesting. That would provide some separation, give it some mechanical stability, etc. If the runs were short, the capacitance should not be too bad.... will need to work that out. I have a thought for the overall coating, rubberized roofing paint.....
What guage of coil did you use?
Alvaius
Great and simple idea. I am going to have to try it. What did you do so seperate the conductors? I was thinking that double sided foam tape may be interesting. That would provide some separation, give it some mechanical stability, etc. If the runs were short, the capacitance should not be too bad.... will need to work that out. I have a thought for the overall coating, rubberized roofing paint.....
What guage of coil did you use?
Alvaius
I use the + and - runs separated from eachother by about 8" or so. Also use no insulation to avoid any energy storage of the cable.
It´s as simple and pure as it gets and it sounds like that also.
It woul be interesting to try my solution with the one you mention, but I´m afraid that double sided tape may affect the sound??? Also having the conductors separated means no mechanical interference or resonances can occur, this is part of the idea.
Maybe for long runs (5-10 meter) it can be wise to use the Goertz type of cable (to lower the inductance), but for short runs (less than 2 meter) and if the impedance is 8 ohm or more in the high range of the speaker, separated runs makes a whooole lot of sense to me.
Next for me is to try silver foils, at least to the tweeter. Cotton insulation and spades/bananas can be usefull for some people also.
I use 14AWG I think (2mm2). The foil is 1.2" wide and THIN. I think for runs of 1 meter one could get by without any problems with 16AWG. With lengths more than four meters or so, 12AWG would be the choice. Of course speaker impedance affects the whole equation.
Oh... yes I´m happy 🙂
/Peter
It´s as simple and pure as it gets and it sounds like that also.
It woul be interesting to try my solution with the one you mention, but I´m afraid that double sided tape may affect the sound??? Also having the conductors separated means no mechanical interference or resonances can occur, this is part of the idea.
Maybe for long runs (5-10 meter) it can be wise to use the Goertz type of cable (to lower the inductance), but for short runs (less than 2 meter) and if the impedance is 8 ohm or more in the high range of the speaker, separated runs makes a whooole lot of sense to me.
Next for me is to try silver foils, at least to the tweeter. Cotton insulation and spades/bananas can be usefull for some people also.
I use 14AWG I think (2mm2). The foil is 1.2" wide and THIN. I think for runs of 1 meter one could get by without any problems with 16AWG. With lengths more than four meters or so, 12AWG would be the choice. Of course speaker impedance affects the whole equation.
Oh... yes I´m happy 🙂
/Peter
SILVERFOIL.
Hello,
Go silverfoil all the way.
Even if you're bi-wiring...it pays big time.
You're in for a nice surprise.🙂
If later on you want to experiment further with interconnects use teflon tubing as a carrier (choose diameter 3 to 3.5 mm),wrap the silverfoil carefully around it,use some plumber teflon tape to insulate that and insert it in a braided shielding sheet covered with nylon braid.
Connect your plugs and you have a silverfoil hollow connection.
Enjoy the sound,😉
Hello,
Go silverfoil all the way.
Even if you're bi-wiring...it pays big time.
You're in for a nice surprise.🙂
If later on you want to experiment further with interconnects use teflon tubing as a carrier (choose diameter 3 to 3.5 mm),wrap the silverfoil carefully around it,use some plumber teflon tape to insulate that and insert it in a braided shielding sheet covered with nylon braid.
Connect your plugs and you have a silverfoil hollow connection.
Enjoy the sound,😉
Frank...
Are you suggesting that even if I only use 1 meter of silver foil from amp the speaker it will be better than copper?
Don´t forget the signal (to the mids) will have to pass 10-20 meter or so of copper foil in the X-over, and then there is the VC´s copper winding in the drivers...!
/Peter
Are you suggesting that even if I only use 1 meter of silver foil from amp the speaker it will be better than copper?
Don´t forget the signal (to the mids) will have to pass 10-20 meter or so of copper foil in the X-over, and then there is the VC´s copper winding in the drivers...!
/Peter
SILVERFOIL
Hi,
Tell me if you don't.
I know what you mean,it would be great to use silverfoil inductors as well naturally... and silver inside the speaker coils.
All will make a small but worthwhile difference.
Try it if you can...I had my woofers and mids redone that way for free as a sponsored experiment and don't regret it one bit.
Cheers,😉
Hi,
Tell me if you don't.
I know what you mean,it would be great to use silverfoil inductors as well naturally... and silver inside the speaker coils.
All will make a small but worthwhile difference.
Try it if you can...I had my woofers and mids redone that way for free as a sponsored experiment and don't regret it one bit.
Cheers,😉
Foil makes good conductors but cables are a different game.
Try thick, massive copper or silver, keep the signal-halves separated and listen to clean sound!
Try thick, massive copper or silver, keep the signal-halves separated and listen to clean sound!
Have you tried to calculate inductance? Having the runs separated by 8 inches constitutes a signifcant loop area.
"Foil makes good conductors but cables are a different game.
Try thick, massive copper or silver, keep the signal-halves separated and listen to clean sound!"
Test Pilot,
I don´t get your point, what do you mean with this?
Are you suggesting that a round solid core would have better properties as a speakercable than a 30mm wide and 0.067mm thin foil/ribbon?
Capslock,
I have not calculated or measured the RCL of the cable, but will measure soon. Flat conductors inherently has less inductance then round of the same gauge. Also I have lengths of about 1 meter. I do not hear any roll off in the top compared to the low inductance SupraPly cable, only cleaner more resolved sound.
I will measure inductance and calculate eventual roll off sometime this month.
/Peter
Try thick, massive copper or silver, keep the signal-halves separated and listen to clean sound!"
Test Pilot,
I don´t get your point, what do you mean with this?
Are you suggesting that a round solid core would have better properties as a speakercable than a 30mm wide and 0.067mm thin foil/ribbon?
Capslock,
I have not calculated or measured the RCL of the cable, but will measure soon. Flat conductors inherently has less inductance then round of the same gauge. Also I have lengths of about 1 meter. I do not hear any roll off in the top compared to the low inductance SupraPly cable, only cleaner more resolved sound.
I will measure inductance and calculate eventual roll off sometime this month.
/Peter
Inductance is a function of the loop area. If the separation between the runs becomes much larger than the width of each conductor, the shape of the wire or foil becomes completely irrelevant.
capslock
"Inductance is a function of the loop area. If the separation between the runs becomes much larger than the width of each conductor, the shape of the wire or foil becomes completely irrelevant"
Do you have a reference/link that deals with this subject?
In the bass or mids this inductance would be of no problem since x-over coils and/or voice coils has mucho higher inductance themself.
In the high´s I agree it could be a problem, time will show. I will listen and compare to lower inductance cables (and also measure) to se if there is any negative effect.
However, obviously its much a question of the length of speaker cables and the impedance of the tweeter circuit (tweeter + x-over).
/Peter
"Inductance is a function of the loop area. If the separation between the runs becomes much larger than the width of each conductor, the shape of the wire or foil becomes completely irrelevant"
Do you have a reference/link that deals with this subject?
In the bass or mids this inductance would be of no problem since x-over coils and/or voice coils has mucho higher inductance themself.
In the high´s I agree it could be a problem, time will show. I will listen and compare to lower inductance cables (and also measure) to se if there is any negative effect.
However, obviously its much a question of the length of speaker cables and the impedance of the tweeter circuit (tweeter + x-over).
/Peter
Well thank you so very much for your invaluable help!
Do you send me a couple of books?
Actually I do understand that this probably can be found in books, however I´m short of time and would like to do some quick reading about the subject on internet instead of chasing/buying books, and therefore i asked for a link.
"Inductance is a function of the loop area"
I thought inductance was a function of cable thickness, geometry and length, a flat conductor having less inductance than a round of same gauge, even when separated by a significant distance.
What do you mean by "loop area" ?
/Peter
Do you send me a couple of books?
Actually I do understand that this probably can be found in books, however I´m short of time and would like to do some quick reading about the subject on internet instead of chasing/buying books, and therefore i asked for a link.
"Inductance is a function of the loop area"
I thought inductance was a function of cable thickness, geometry and length, a flat conductor having less inductance than a round of same gauge, even when separated by a significant distance.
What do you mean by "loop area" ?
/Peter
Sorry, I don't have a link handy, except maybe for the Analog Devices app note on "Decoupling, grounding and making things go right for a change".
What you say about the inductance is correct for a linear, infinetly long conductor.
In reality, you need two conductors to carry the current to the load and back to the source. This constitutes a current loop. The current will build up a magnetic field within the loop. The energy stored in this field is directly related to the inductance of your setup. The larger the loop, the more energy the field can store.
What you say about the inductance is correct for a linear, infinetly long conductor.
In reality, you need two conductors to carry the current to the load and back to the source. This constitutes a current loop. The current will build up a magnetic field within the loop. The energy stored in this field is directly related to the inductance of your setup. The larger the loop, the more energy the field can store.
capslock
Ok, thanks, I´ll try to find some articles or books cause I feel I need to learn more about this.
Hmmm.. if we arrange a cable in a circle, let´s say with 1 meter radius. Do you mean that it does not matter if the cable is round or flat to inductance? Let´s say 14AWG and round compared to a foil of 1.2" with.
What about gauge, a thinner wire/conductor in the same arangement, would the Inductance be lower then?
If I understand you right, it´s only in close distance to eachother that it makes a difference if we use "Goertz" type or "Silversmith" or "Kimber"?
Thanks for making me think
🙂
/Peter
Ok, thanks, I´ll try to find some articles or books cause I feel I need to learn more about this.
Hmmm.. if we arrange a cable in a circle, let´s say with 1 meter radius. Do you mean that it does not matter if the cable is round or flat to inductance? Let´s say 14AWG and round compared to a foil of 1.2" with.
What about gauge, a thinner wire/conductor in the same arangement, would the Inductance be lower then?
If I understand you right, it´s only in close distance to eachother that it makes a difference if we use "Goertz" type or "Silversmith" or "Kimber"?
Thanks for making me think
🙂
/Peter
Where can you find silverfoil?And what about some info on what make inductors have copper foil. The inductors I have seen seem to have normal copper wire.Any pics?
Silver foil can be found in Goertz inductors or from Allen Wright of Vacuum State Electronics www.vacuumstate.com.
There use to be a brand called "Solo/CFAC", don´t know if Alpha core and Goertz are the same, Mundorf in Germany is another one. Crosscoil is a European brand (Poland I think).
Do some searchs on the names above and I´m sure you´ll find plenty. Also check out Zalytron, Madisound and Soniccraft.
/Peter
There use to be a brand called "Solo/CFAC", don´t know if Alpha core and Goertz are the same, Mundorf in Germany is another one. Crosscoil is a European brand (Poland I think).
Do some searchs on the names above and I´m sure you´ll find plenty. Also check out Zalytron, Madisound and Soniccraft.
/Peter
I am not sure if anyone noticed, but you can buy cables using foil conductors. They are actually seperated by a very thin insulator such that the characteristic impedance is very low (2-4 ohms).
So along these lines, I followed on my first thoughts and made a set of cables using double sided sticky tape. The 2" double sided sticky tape holds 12guage alphacore inductor foil nicely.
Presently I am using Monster M2.2s (no comments, I got a really good price!) I would say that these are comparable. The top end seems a bit more detailed, the bass may be a bit weaker. Possibly I should double them up to get a thicker average guage. Considering they only cost $30 including the tape, I can't complain.
Alvaius
So along these lines, I followed on my first thoughts and made a set of cables using double sided sticky tape. The 2" double sided sticky tape holds 12guage alphacore inductor foil nicely.
Presently I am using Monster M2.2s (no comments, I got a really good price!) I would say that these are comparable. The top end seems a bit more detailed, the bass may be a bit weaker. Possibly I should double them up to get a thicker average guage. Considering they only cost $30 including the tape, I can't complain.
Alvaius
What length does the cable have to be so that you can measure the characteristic impedance?alvaius said:
Tara Labs anyone?
Have any of you tried listening to Tara Labs cabels? I have done some pretty extensive listening to all sorts of different cables, and found them to be the best you can get (at any price point dollar for dollar). If the wires you are making sound at all like the Geortz cables, I would listen to the Tara stuff before spending a whole lot of time messing with them. I like your ideas, but my experience was that the Geortz stuff sucked the life out of things. In their coils, the foil is way better than anything else used in wire wound inductors, but in speakers wire you can do much better. Now, if you are on a budget, you may be able to build a pretty good cable very cheaply, but IMHO Tara is the cable that sounds most like live music.
Have any of you tried listening to Tara Labs cabels? I have done some pretty extensive listening to all sorts of different cables, and found them to be the best you can get (at any price point dollar for dollar). If the wires you are making sound at all like the Geortz cables, I would listen to the Tara stuff before spending a whole lot of time messing with them. I like your ideas, but my experience was that the Geortz stuff sucked the life out of things. In their coils, the foil is way better than anything else used in wire wound inductors, but in speakers wire you can do much better. Now, if you are on a budget, you may be able to build a pretty good cable very cheaply, but IMHO Tara is the cable that sounds most like live music.