I'm new to this stuff and am trying to understand without asking but something just confused me and a little clarification would be great.
When matching speakers and amplifiers, sites I've found such as this one: http://www.satcure-focus.com/icetech/page2.htm tell you that speakers should have an RMS of slightly more than the amplifier.
However, on Saturnus's boombox http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=104402&highlight=portable+boombox (which is very cool) he is using an Amp6-Basic which outputs 2x25W with 4x 100W P.Audio HP10W woofers and 4x MGR CH-100 tweeters.
The reason I've used the boombox as an example is that I'm interested in making something similar and would like to use the same amp (Amp6-Basic) as Saturnus.
I don't get it. Wouldn't the speakers be really underpowered? Even just the woofers are 400W in total and they're being powered by an amplifier which can only do 25W per channel.
Being new to this there's probably something obvious I'm missing and this will look like a kind of stupid question, but thanks for any help.
When matching speakers and amplifiers, sites I've found such as this one: http://www.satcure-focus.com/icetech/page2.htm tell you that speakers should have an RMS of slightly more than the amplifier.
However, on Saturnus's boombox http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=104402&highlight=portable+boombox (which is very cool) he is using an Amp6-Basic which outputs 2x25W with 4x 100W P.Audio HP10W woofers and 4x MGR CH-100 tweeters.
The reason I've used the boombox as an example is that I'm interested in making something similar and would like to use the same amp (Amp6-Basic) as Saturnus.
I don't get it. Wouldn't the speakers be really underpowered? Even just the woofers are 400W in total and they're being powered by an amplifier which can only do 25W per channel.
Being new to this there's probably something obvious I'm missing and this will look like a kind of stupid question, but thanks for any help.
It's a good idea if the speakers can handle quite a bit more than the amplifier can output. I always use double up, so my speakers can handle twice my amps output.
One of the reasons is that if you play to the amplifier limit, it will start to "clip" which is quite easy to hear as the sound gets unpleasant and you then know you have to turn the volume down. It's much harder to hear when a speaker reaches it's limit. Many times you don't hear it before it's to late and then the damage is done.
There are also other considerations as to the amount of Watts each driver receives when you pushing the amplifer to clip.....
One of the reasons is that if you play to the amplifier limit, it will start to "clip" which is quite easy to hear as the sound gets unpleasant and you then know you have to turn the volume down. It's much harder to hear when a speaker reaches it's limit. Many times you don't hear it before it's to late and then the damage is done.
There are also other considerations as to the amount of Watts each driver receives when you pushing the amplifer to clip.....
Also, the speaker limit is usually a thermal limit, beyond which it is damaged. It doesn't mean it can be used for reproducing music distortion free at that limit. In fact, using a speaker at its power limit will sound horrible!
Jan Didden
Jan Didden
Thanks guys,
I'm looking to use the Amp6-Basic which outputs 2x25W at 4 ohms. I'd like to use one speaker per channel so if I double like ACD says I should would I be right in thinking I should be looking for two 50W 4 ohm speakers (one per channel)?
I'm looking to use the Amp6-Basic which outputs 2x25W at 4 ohms. I'd like to use one speaker per channel so if I double like ACD says I should would I be right in thinking I should be looking for two 50W 4 ohm speakers (one per channel)?
On the spot, janneman 😉
revans;
That would work fine.
However do your self the favour not to save a few bucks by purchasing some "no name" speakers with unrealistic specifications 😉
revans;
That would work fine.
However do your self the favour not to save a few bucks by purchasing some "no name" speakers with unrealistic specifications 😉
Efficiency is one of the most important points when considering "how much power and how loud".
Take two speakers, one at 82 db sensitivity (sound pressure level for one watt input) and another at 94 db. The second one will be as loud for 1 watt input as the first is for 16 watts input.
A 3 db increase in sound level which isn't very noticeable to many, requires a doubling of the power supplied by the amp.
As ACD explains, clipping -- when the amp runs out of "voltage" is the killer for speakers, the output levels off to what is effectively a high DC voltage - result burned out speaker.
Take two speakers, one at 82 db sensitivity (sound pressure level for one watt input) and another at 94 db. The second one will be as loud for 1 watt input as the first is for 16 watts input.
A 3 db increase in sound level which isn't very noticeable to many, requires a doubling of the power supplied by the amp.
As ACD explains, clipping -- when the amp runs out of "voltage" is the killer for speakers, the output levels off to what is effectively a high DC voltage - result burned out speaker.
It is easier to damage speakers with a low power amplifier than with a high power amplifier.
Clipping and distortion damage speakers, so I prefer to use high power amps (sometimes more than the speaker rating) and never had any problems, you can get better sound quality and higher SPL without distortion from the same speakers.
Edit: Sorry Mooly, you posted while I was typing.
Clipping and distortion damage speakers, so I prefer to use high power amps (sometimes more than the speaker rating) and never had any problems, you can get better sound quality and higher SPL without distortion from the same speakers.
Edit: Sorry Mooly, you posted while I was typing.
Thanks to all for your input. I'm going to trawl the web for some speakers myself but meanwhile: can anyone recommend some suitable speakers that aren't too expensive but will work well for my use (2x 4 ohm 50W full-range speakers for an Amp6-Basic)
I'm having difficulty finding 50W (or thereabouts) 4 ohm full range loudspeakers. Does anyone please have any suggestions?
So far the only speakers in the 4 ohm department with a near suitable RMS I've found myself are the Dayton RS100-4 (30W RMS) http://www.partsexpress.com/pe/showdetl.cfm?&Partnumber=295-378
and the Tang Band W4-1757S (35W RMS) http://www.partsexpress.com/pe/psho...79&FTR=W4-1757S&CFID=7960585&CFTOKEN=57238633
Is that enough wattage per channel for the Amp6-Basic or do I need to find something closer to 50W?
So far the only speakers in the 4 ohm department with a near suitable RMS I've found myself are the Dayton RS100-4 (30W RMS) http://www.partsexpress.com/pe/showdetl.cfm?&Partnumber=295-378
and the Tang Band W4-1757S (35W RMS) http://www.partsexpress.com/pe/psho...79&FTR=W4-1757S&CFID=7960585&CFTOKEN=57238633
Is that enough wattage per channel for the Amp6-Basic or do I need to find something closer to 50W?
The power rating of the speakers is directly proportional to the stupidity of the person running the Volume Control. No offense intended.
There is a great debate over whether underpowered amps or overpowered amps are more dangerous to speakers.
Some say underpowered amps go into clipping much sooner and that clipping will destroy the speakers.
Other say that overpowered amps will simply source too much current and will blow the speakers.
But as I have already implied, it is NEVER overpower or underpowered amps that blow speakers, it is ALWAYS the guy (ie: idiot) running the Volume Control.
If you blow your speakers, then you have no common sense and no respect for your equipment. In other words, if you turn your volume control up too far, then you are an idiot and deserve everything you get.
You can't blame the amp, you can't blame the speakers, though, sadly, we can often blame uncaring unthinking friends for the mishap.
I know people in both situations, with underpowered amps relative to their speakers and overpowered amps relative to their speakers, and neither have ever had a problem. Because, they understand the limits of their equipment. They understand the nature of power. And because of these understandings, have still thrown some loud raging parties, and have never had a problem. Though, they all have a firm policy of not allowing idiots to touch the volume control.
As long as I have brought up "The Nature of Power", let me elaborate on that. Power is not linear, it is not in direct proportion to loudness. If your speaker sound twice as loud, then likely you are pumping 10 TIMES the power into them.
In general, if you turn the volume control up a just perceptible amount, you have doubled the power. In a quick test of the average power, at half turn of the volume control, my amp was averaging only about 2 or 3 watts. But every time I nudge the volume control up, that power doubles...3 becomes 6, 6 becomes 12, 12 becomes 24, 24 becomes 48, 48 becomes 96, and speakers become toast.
You can now see how that last little nudge of the volume control doubles the power to massive levels (48 is safe, 96 is toast), and that is where the damage comes in. When you are up at high volume levels one tiny nudge of the volume control one way or the other, is the difference between a raging party and disaster.
On general principle, I never turn my volume control up over about 60% to at the most 70% of full turn. There is nothing to be gained above this level accept distortion and damage. And, give my speakers are very efficient, 60% is extremely loud, as much or more than any party ever needs.
Just passing it along.
Steve/bluewizard
There is a great debate over whether underpowered amps or overpowered amps are more dangerous to speakers.
Some say underpowered amps go into clipping much sooner and that clipping will destroy the speakers.
Other say that overpowered amps will simply source too much current and will blow the speakers.
But as I have already implied, it is NEVER overpower or underpowered amps that blow speakers, it is ALWAYS the guy (ie: idiot) running the Volume Control.
If you blow your speakers, then you have no common sense and no respect for your equipment. In other words, if you turn your volume control up too far, then you are an idiot and deserve everything you get.
You can't blame the amp, you can't blame the speakers, though, sadly, we can often blame uncaring unthinking friends for the mishap.
I know people in both situations, with underpowered amps relative to their speakers and overpowered amps relative to their speakers, and neither have ever had a problem. Because, they understand the limits of their equipment. They understand the nature of power. And because of these understandings, have still thrown some loud raging parties, and have never had a problem. Though, they all have a firm policy of not allowing idiots to touch the volume control.
As long as I have brought up "The Nature of Power", let me elaborate on that. Power is not linear, it is not in direct proportion to loudness. If your speaker sound twice as loud, then likely you are pumping 10 TIMES the power into them.
In general, if you turn the volume control up a just perceptible amount, you have doubled the power. In a quick test of the average power, at half turn of the volume control, my amp was averaging only about 2 or 3 watts. But every time I nudge the volume control up, that power doubles...3 becomes 6, 6 becomes 12, 12 becomes 24, 24 becomes 48, 48 becomes 96, and speakers become toast.
You can now see how that last little nudge of the volume control doubles the power to massive levels (48 is safe, 96 is toast), and that is where the damage comes in. When you are up at high volume levels one tiny nudge of the volume control one way or the other, is the difference between a raging party and disaster.
On general principle, I never turn my volume control up over about 60% to at the most 70% of full turn. There is nothing to be gained above this level accept distortion and damage. And, give my speakers are very efficient, 60% is extremely loud, as much or more than any party ever needs.
Just passing it along.
Steve/bluewizard
Thanks BlueWizard, that was enlightening. I get what your saying about the volume control and I'd say if I managed to pull off a boombox there'd definitely be some idiots who would want to turn it all the way up.
Is there any way to create a setup that won't be affected as much at high volume? Just so that if some idiot turns it right up it won't straightaway be a disaster. Or should I just go one way or the other and overpower/underpower the amp and not let idiots near it?
Is there any way to create a setup that won't be affected as much at high volume? Just so that if some idiot turns it right up it won't straightaway be a disaster. Or should I just go one way or the other and overpower/underpower the amp and not let idiots near it?
Well, having overpowered (over power rated) speakers is always your best safety margin, but even that margin is not absolute.
Remember some people claim underpowered amps are dangerous because they Clip. But any amp driven over about 50% is going to start having serious clipping. So, even if your speakers are overrated, then you push your amp that loud, like it or not, you are clipping and that, if sustained, can cause problems.
Back in the old days, when we were playing vinyl, a record would only last about 20 minutes. Then it would pause and you would have to select a new one to put on. That gave your speakers and amp time to rest and cool down.
Now, with near infinite play capability, that rest period rarely comes.
If you want wild abandon partying, then go to a party at someone else's house. If you want to throw a party, and keep the idiots at bay, then you need to be ever vigilant against idiots attacking your volume control.
Most people don't realize just how soon clipping occurs on the average amp. There are always peaks leaping up at the limits and not just bass peaks, in fact, seldom bass peaks. It is usually general surges in the overall level.
If you can hook an oscilloscope up to your speaker while it is playing, you will see the tops of he music peaks chopped off on high level surges.
Though I don't know how accurate it is, someone recently said, that to be sure of no clipping at normal (somewhat loud) listening levels, we would need 300watt to 500watt per channel amps.
That might be realistically do-able for stereo, but for multi-channel surround sound, I don't think the circuit breakers or the wall outlet could handle it.
But to your basic question, if you can get speakers the exceed your power amp's power rating, then you do have a degree of safety margin, but that margin will not sustain indefinitely. Real damage occurs from power over time. The longer it sustains, the greater the potential for damage.
Just a few thoughts.
Steve/bluewizard
Remember some people claim underpowered amps are dangerous because they Clip. But any amp driven over about 50% is going to start having serious clipping. So, even if your speakers are overrated, then you push your amp that loud, like it or not, you are clipping and that, if sustained, can cause problems.
Back in the old days, when we were playing vinyl, a record would only last about 20 minutes. Then it would pause and you would have to select a new one to put on. That gave your speakers and amp time to rest and cool down.
Now, with near infinite play capability, that rest period rarely comes.
If you want wild abandon partying, then go to a party at someone else's house. If you want to throw a party, and keep the idiots at bay, then you need to be ever vigilant against idiots attacking your volume control.
Most people don't realize just how soon clipping occurs on the average amp. There are always peaks leaping up at the limits and not just bass peaks, in fact, seldom bass peaks. It is usually general surges in the overall level.
If you can hook an oscilloscope up to your speaker while it is playing, you will see the tops of he music peaks chopped off on high level surges.
Though I don't know how accurate it is, someone recently said, that to be sure of no clipping at normal (somewhat loud) listening levels, we would need 300watt to 500watt per channel amps.
That might be realistically do-able for stereo, but for multi-channel surround sound, I don't think the circuit breakers or the wall outlet could handle it.
But to your basic question, if you can get speakers the exceed your power amp's power rating, then you do have a degree of safety margin, but that margin will not sustain indefinitely. Real damage occurs from power over time. The longer it sustains, the greater the potential for damage.
Just a few thoughts.
Steve/bluewizard
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