Gerald,
I am really saddened to hear about the Oberton deal not working out, that would have been such an extraordinary value ..... Maybe we can find a decent alternative though ...
About the workshop, maybe it is ok that you haven't found one just yet because we continue to find better ways to refine these ideas and designs!
Matthew,
I was considering the Mivoc AW2000 with Faital HF100 as a low budget alternative.
Regarding the workshop - if it were for the SuperPlanar builds only, I'd gladly wait. As there are a lot of other projects in the queue as well, I'm rather deperate.
Primarily because in most cases, the additional parameter values required for the above lossy inductance models are not readily available.
Looking for alternatives
Gerald ,
The Mivoc AW2000 is another sort of animal,very different than the Oberton 8" PA drivers we were looking at....
The Mivoc is more like a small subwoofer and calls for an approach that is different than what we would choose with a high efficiency PA driver ....
I will send you and email .
Gerald ,
The Mivoc AW2000 is another sort of animal,very different than the Oberton 8" PA drivers we were looking at....
The Mivoc is more like a small subwoofer and calls for an approach that is different than what we would choose with a high efficiency PA driver ....
I will send you and email
.
MCM
It is saddening to see MCM going away
.........
They did have some extraordinary clearance sales in the last couple of weeks ..... A friend bought some of the "Audio Physics" brand 6.5" drivers with the metallic looking dustcaps .... The price on those ended up coming down to $10 a piece and they turned out to be wonderful drivers!! Supreme value at $10 .. .
When i try to go to the MCM website now i am just redirected to Newark, and their selection seems limited ... I have to wonder about what happened with MCM's stock?
It is saddening to see MCM going away
......... They did have some extraordinary clearance sales in the last couple of weeks ..... A friend bought some of the "Audio Physics" brand 6.5" drivers with the metallic looking dustcaps .... The price on those ended up coming down to $10 a piece and they turned out to be wonderful drivers!! Supreme value at $10 .. .
When i try to go to the MCM website now i am just redirected to Newark, and their selection seems limited ... I have to wonder about what happened with MCM's stock?
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You Sir are a Champion!
Freddi,
I have been thinking about ways to make the Super Planar have a Karlson appeal .... The Super Planar is a parallel tuned compound loaded quarterwave sort of thing and what we have been calling the 8th order version could arguably be both parallel tuned and series-tuned all at the same time (debatable)... The paths can be merged at the end (if the designer so desired) and i think i might have a practical way to add a K-slot to the front chamber .... Still thinking it through ..
Freddi, I saw an image the other day which i know you will love, and It gave me an idea
......
I think it is time that you receive an award for all of your hard work over the years .... This is long overdue!
Freddi,
I have been thinking about ways to make the Super Planar have a Karlson appeal .... The Super Planar is a parallel tuned compound loaded quarterwave sort of thing and what we have been calling the 8th order version could arguably be both parallel tuned and series-tuned all at the same time (debatable)... The paths can be merged at the end (if the designer so desired) and i think i might have a practical way to add a K-slot to the front chamber
.... Still thinking it through .. Freddi, I saw an image the other day which i know you will love, and It gave me an idea
...... I think it is time that you receive an award for all of your hard work over the years .... This is long overdue!
ANOTHER SUCCESS!! 8th order Super Planar loaded with American Bass 15" sub driver
It is official, the second Super Planar 8th order cabinet has been built!
The software model was something i came up with in Hornresp, and 3d sketches were made by Dustin Morgan of Flex Tech Designs in Florida (whom has also learned to model Super Planar cabinets now, as well as other alignments... He has learned Hornresp practically overnight, he is a very smart guy!) .....
The physical cabinet itself was built by a Mr Mario Hacker who lives out in California ........
The cabinet is now mounted inside of Mario's truck .... BIG box , tight fit!
The cabinet is loaded with an American Bass brand XD 15 which is being driven by around a kilowatt of power .....
Mario is LOVING the sound of this cabinet so far , i will paste some of his feedback here further down below the build photos.. ..
Here are some quotes from Mario about his experience with this cabinet so far:
"windshield isn't too happy"
"um yea it has some damn good impact Matthew Morgan J! It sounds awesome, very clean and responsive, very loud.... almost painful with the volume up lol"
"brutal"
"(the old box) didn't flex my truck anywhere near this much on the same power though... This enclosure made a world of difference!"
" Brutal is the only word I can think of with how hard this thing hits lol"
"doors rattle, glass rattles, fenders rattle, bed rattles, even some stuff that I cant find is rattling lmao... a lot of pressure going on!"
"yea its got stuff rattling I never knew could rattle lol... Im gonna have to invest in about 200lbs worth of deadener and expanding foam �� def too much for this truck lol"
THEORY OF OPERATION:
We are juggling 3 different main resonances here, staggered .... 30hz , 70hz and another up around 90hz
The 30hz quarterwave resonance is generated by the main path's total path length ..... The 70hz resonance seems to be generated by the geometry of the large CSA section which makes up the latter portion of the main path, this implies that it is a quarterwave resonator as the ROAR guys have suggested (but I am also open to the idea that this could possibly be an Fb x3 harmonic shifted down considerably by the main path's radical expansion, nevertheless whatever the case may be this resonance is very effective and gets the job done, so either way it works and i am happy!
) ....................................
The 90hz resonance is generated by what i call the Front Chamber (but technically it is referred to as "Rear Vented" chamber in Hornresp)..
..... The additional resonance you can clearly see up at around 120hz is a harmonic ..........
There are surely many more odd harmonics being produced above the one we see at 120hz, but the rest of those harmonics will be falling outside of our useful passband here ....
NOTE:
Mario plans to get his new sub measured with an RTA so we can see the response curve, and he also plans to have the maximum SPL measured with a reputable meter ........ When the data becomes available to me i will share it in this discussion if anyone would like to see ........ ............
Mario's initial impressions about the response are subjective but promising in that he says the useful response seems to be extending lower than our simulated graph would lead us to believe, and the big hump seen up in the 60hz to 90hz range isn't as obnoxious as you might think... He says it is very musical, and he will experiment with moving his LPF a little higher to see how that goes ..
It is official, the second Super Planar 8th order cabinet has been built!
The software model was something i came up with in Hornresp, and 3d sketches were made by Dustin Morgan of Flex Tech Designs in Florida (whom has also learned to model Super Planar cabinets now, as well as other alignments... He has learned Hornresp practically overnight, he is a very smart guy!) .....
The physical cabinet itself was built by a Mr Mario Hacker who lives out in California ........
The cabinet is now mounted inside of Mario's truck .... BIG box , tight fit!
The cabinet is loaded with an American Bass brand XD 15 which is being driven by around a kilowatt of power .....
Mario is LOVING the sound of this cabinet so far , i will paste some of his feedback here further down below the build photos
.. ..
Here are some quotes from Mario about his experience with this cabinet so far:
"windshield isn't too happy"
"um yea it has some damn good impact Matthew Morgan J! It sounds awesome, very clean and responsive, very loud.... almost painful with the volume up lol"
"brutal"
"(the old box) didn't flex my truck anywhere near this much on the same power though... This enclosure made a world of difference!"
" Brutal is the only word I can think of with how hard this thing hits lol"
"doors rattle, glass rattles, fenders rattle, bed rattles, even some stuff that I cant find is rattling lmao... a lot of pressure going on!"
"yea its got stuff rattling I never knew could rattle lol... Im gonna have to invest in about 200lbs worth of deadener and expanding foam �� def too much for this truck lol"
THEORY OF OPERATION:
We are juggling 3 different main resonances here, staggered .... 30hz , 70hz and another up around 90hz
The 30hz quarterwave resonance is generated by the main path's total path length ..... The 70hz resonance seems to be generated by the geometry of the large CSA section which makes up the latter portion of the main path, this implies that it is a quarterwave resonator as the ROAR guys have suggested (but I am also open to the idea that this could possibly be an Fb x3 harmonic shifted down considerably by the main path's radical expansion, nevertheless whatever the case may be this resonance is very effective and gets the job done, so either way it works and i am happy!
) ....................................The 90hz resonance is generated by what i call the Front Chamber (but technically it is referred to as "Rear Vented" chamber in Hornresp)..
..... The additional resonance you can clearly see up at around 120hz is a harmonic ..........
There are surely many more odd harmonics being produced above the one we see at 120hz, but the rest of those harmonics will be falling outside of our useful passband here ....
NOTE:
Mario plans to get his new sub measured with an RTA so we can see the response curve, and he also plans to have the maximum SPL measured with a reputable meter ........ When the data becomes available to me i will share it in this discussion if anyone would like to see ........ ............
Mario's initial impressions about the response are subjective but promising in that he says the useful response seems to be extending lower than our simulated graph would lead us to believe, and the big hump seen up in the 60hz to 90hz range isn't as obnoxious as you might think... He says it is very musical, and he will experiment with moving his LPF a little higher to see how that goes ..
The large frontresonator really does increase the efficiency and ads a lot of midbass output. The midbass is usually much more important then the deep bass since a lot of the energy in music is centered around 70 - 110 Hz. A normal tapped horn usually have a dip in the spl graph and a peak in the displacement around the midbass. This makes them sound bland and boring compared to FLH, ROAR or 8th order Super Planar.
I recognize this from my own testing of my ROAR12 in my car.
It was brutally hard, dynamic and punchy.
Here is some measurements inside my car (Hyundai Getz) with the ROAR12 laying facing backwards.
The red line is with the microphone where my head usually is.
The green line is with the microphone near the front window on top of the dashboard.
Since your 8th order Super Planar shares many attributes with the ROAR design I would guess they both behave and sound quite similar in a car cabin.
I love this thread! I love these fun car audio 8th Order Super Planar builds!
Regards,
Johannes
This mirrors my experience quite well. I can't see any "extending lower than our simulated graph would lead us to believe" in my measurements. I believe the sheer unhindered power these devices produce tricks us that there is more extension then what we measure. Many people have commented on the "deeper then the sim" extension of my ROAR, even though my measurements does not support this. Normal continuously expanding tapped horns tuned to the same low frequency response does not sound the same.
Something strange is going on here and I am very curious what it is.
I hope you can post measurements from this build so we can compare with the Hornresp sims.
I believe you will find the same perplexing disparity between the measurements and the subjective experience.
Regards,
Johannes
Discussion about the reports
USRFobiwan and Johannes,
I believe that when Mario was speaking about this subjective presence below Fb he is making a comparison in reference to the simple old cabinet (the one which the Super Planar 8th replaced), it was loaded with the same 15" driver ....
Perhaps just some illusory effect as Johannes is suggesting....... An in-vehicle response measurement may just show a curve that looks a lot like what the simulation produced with very little going on below 30hz, we shall see, but we have no reason to expect anything different than that ..........
As fantastic as it would be to discover that there is some mysterious minor loading going on below Fb , we just don't have enough evidence of anything like that happening, at least not yet ............................. Although, with that said, i have observed something strange along those lines years ago, but that was a completely different multi-resonant design (i posted about it earlier in this discussion) ...... So i am not going to say that it is impossible, just unlikely.
USRFobiwan and Johannes,
I believe that when Mario was speaking about this subjective presence below Fb he is making a comparison in reference to the simple old cabinet (the one which the Super Planar 8th replaced), it was loaded with the same 15" driver ....
Perhaps just some illusory effect as Johannes is suggesting....... An in-vehicle response measurement may just show a curve that looks a lot like what the simulation produced with very little going on below 30hz, we shall see, but we have no reason to expect anything different than that ..........
As fantastic as it would be to discover that there is some mysterious minor loading going on below Fb , we just don't have enough evidence of anything like that happening, at least not yet ............................. Although, with that said, i have observed something strange along those lines years ago, but that was a completely different multi-resonant design (i posted about it earlier in this discussion) ...... So i am not going to say that it is impossible, just unlikely.
The large frontresonator really does increase the efficiency and ads a lot of midbass output. The midbass is usually much more important then the deep bass since a lot of the energy in music is centered around 70 - 110 Hz.
Since your 8th order Super Planar shares many attributes with the ROAR design I would guess they both behave and sound quite similar in a car cabin.
Johannes,
Agreed , that 70hz to 110hz range is so very vital! ..... It also just so happens to be exactly where an extraordinary amount of efficiency is focused with these ROAR and Super Planar 8th order cabinets...
.......... This curve seems to be very well suited to cornerloading, or in large arrays (as in a "herd" of cabinets used in PA), or in car audio ...... The extra gain up in the 70hz to 110hz range will help to keep the response balanced in those scenarios .....................
I am seeing it as very similar to what FLH cabinets are well known for... A single FLH might have a rising response in halfspace (2Pi) but with multiple cabinets or increased boundary loading the response flattens out nicely and massive performance is the result!
I am glad you are enjoying this too! I find it all very fascinating ......
There is more interest and more builds in the works so we will see where this adventure takes us!
THIS JUST IN ..... ANOTHER REPORT!
(still speaking about the Super Planar 8th order cabinet, pictured above)
This comes from Mario's friend who just spent some time in Mario's truck listening to the new Super Planar 8th order subwoofer .. This gentleman goes by "Brandy Chrisp" on Facebook and is himself a car audio aficionado ...
"Brandy Chrisp" says:
"Ill be honest man i was rockin a hdc315 wired to .5 ohm on an aq2200 in a kerf ported built to spec enclosure tuned to 31hz and don't get me wrong my sht hit hard as fck and shook the living sht out of my 4runner badly. But Marios was cleaner sounding, tighter, more punch, and way more authority throughout the whole bandwidth. Honestly sounded and felt like 2 15s or even 2 18s"
An externally hosted image should be here but it was not working when we last tested it.
(still speaking about the Super Planar 8th order cabinet, pictured above)
This comes from Mario's friend who just spent some time in Mario's truck listening to the new Super Planar 8th order subwoofer .. This gentleman goes by "Brandy Chrisp" on Facebook and is himself a car audio aficionado ...
"Brandy Chrisp" says:
"Ill be honest man i was rockin a hdc315 wired to .5 ohm on an aq2200 in a kerf ported built to spec enclosure tuned to 31hz and don't get me wrong my sh
t hit hard as fck and shook the living sht out of my 4runner badly. But Marios was cleaner sounding, tighter, more punch, and way more authority throughout the whole bandwidth. Honestly sounded and felt like 2 15s or even 2 18s"
Driver update .. more to come
I have plugged the parameters for the B&C 18DS115 into our 600 liter Super Planar 8th order model and this new B&C definitely has an edge over the 18SW115..
The surplus BL factor really helps when using the "Lossy Le" feature in Hornresp (which dials down the BL based on Le) and in the end you end up with plenty of motor force to get the job done in grand fashion
...... A few extra millimeters of linear Xmax is also a nice bonus
The 18DS115 is now selling at USspeaker.com for the same price as the 18SW115..
NOTE: I would like to point out that when using a driver like the 18DS115 in a Front Loaded Horn or a Tapped Horn the designer would likely be going with a compression ratio that is higher than what we see in our Super Planar 8th model (meaning potentially less stress on the cone in theory, with this new design)...... I see this as an advantage in favor of our Super Planar 8th order alignment..
I have plugged the parameters for the B&C 18DS115 into our 600 liter Super Planar 8th order model and this new B&C definitely has an edge over the 18SW115..
The surplus BL factor really helps when using the "Lossy Le" feature in Hornresp (which dials down the BL based on Le) and in the end you end up with plenty of motor force to get the job done in grand fashion
...... A few extra millimeters of linear Xmax is also a nice bonusThe 18DS115 is now selling at USspeaker.com for the same price as the 18SW115..
NOTE: I would like to point out that when using a driver like the 18DS115 in a Front Loaded Horn or a Tapped Horn the designer would likely be going with a compression ratio that is higher than what we see in our Super Planar 8th model (meaning potentially less stress on the cone in theory, with this new design)...... I see this as an advantage in favor of our Super Planar 8th order alignment..
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