Hi,
I've created this account solely for some help with our audio install.
I'm part of a team building an indoor parkour facility in the South of the UK.
Our facility is approx 2800 sqft with a height of approx 4.5 metres and is open plan. It's essentially just a very large box. What we're aiming to do is install a system that would be loud enough to fill the space. We plan on attaching a Sonos connect system to it.
After reading a bit on various audio forums, and blogs; I've come to the conclusion we'd need an amp, connected to a 4 speaker selection switch, with the speakers (one in each corner) connected to the switch.
My question to whoever can be bothered to read this, is, have I missed something completely? Also, does anybody have some recommendations for the actual equipment we should invest in.
If the above is too vague to help with, I'll happily try and provide some more clarity. The link below should take you to some images of the area, there are also some 3D images of what it will look like once finished.
https://drive.google.com/folderview?id=0B77UIZpjB82teHlheGMzZzh1YVk&usp=sharing
Any help will be greatly received.
I've created this account solely for some help with our audio install.
I'm part of a team building an indoor parkour facility in the South of the UK.
Our facility is approx 2800 sqft with a height of approx 4.5 metres and is open plan. It's essentially just a very large box. What we're aiming to do is install a system that would be loud enough to fill the space. We plan on attaching a Sonos connect system to it.
After reading a bit on various audio forums, and blogs; I've come to the conclusion we'd need an amp, connected to a 4 speaker selection switch, with the speakers (one in each corner) connected to the switch.
My question to whoever can be bothered to read this, is, have I missed something completely? Also, does anybody have some recommendations for the actual equipment we should invest in.
If the above is too vague to help with, I'll happily try and provide some more clarity. The link below should take you to some images of the area, there are also some 3D images of what it will look like once finished.
https://drive.google.com/folderview?id=0B77UIZpjB82teHlheGMzZzh1YVk&usp=sharing
Any help will be greatly received.
When you have finished the unit and laid sound absorption material, carpet, wall cladding, ceiling and curtains, I would speak to a PA supplier in your area, they can demonstrate some gear to give you the sound you want.
Welcome to DIY.
You will find that some questions only generate more questions but will eventually generate some suggestions.
🙂
Why switching between four speakers and not just feed all four speakers at the same time?
Is this for PA use / background music or full party level music.
What is a Sonos connect system?
🙂
You will find that some questions only generate more questions but will eventually generate some suggestions.
🙂
Why switching between four speakers and not just feed all four speakers at the same time?
Is this for PA use / background music or full party level music.
What is a Sonos connect system?
🙂
Use separate amplifiers to each speaker.
Keeps the audio/music flowing when there is either a speaker, or an amplifier, failure.
Keeps the audio/music flowing when there is either a speaker, or an amplifier, failure.
with what your doing a 70V line distribution system might be better than four speakers in the corners.
if you shop wisely you can find four zone paging amps fairly inexpensively,and reasonable quality back boxed paging speakers or self contained molded speaker enclosures transformer equipped of course are fairly easy to source.
what kind of budget are you working with?
if you shop wisely you can find four zone paging amps fairly inexpensively,and reasonable quality back boxed paging speakers or self contained molded speaker enclosures transformer equipped of course are fairly easy to source.
what kind of budget are you working with?
At first I found your CAD drawings VERY confusing.
Supposed it was some kind of product exhibition stand, yellow cubes were carpet covered plywood to show some product , say motorcycles or a car or whatever.
And ... what was the violet ramp for?
A car in display maybe?
Besides, I had to google "parkour" ....
People in a specific trade think everybody else in the World knows what they're talking about 🙄
WOW !!!!!!!!
Do you mean this?:
TEMPEST FREERUNNING ACADEMY - GYM VIDEO - YouTube
Amazing !!!!
Ok, 2 points:
1) I guess you use that area, but you are part of a larger enclosed space (per your first 2 pictures).
https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/d...olUro-91bkokfTrL89r2X7hZjlVunlGBvTQ=w973-h376
https://lh4.googleusercontent.com/Q...aCM6bOv32WmLksJxk9wEKS6plLz2xYynxEQ=w973-h376
Does anybody else use the rest of that warehouse for other purposes?
Stands selling stuff, fast food, whatever?
Will they be annoyed by your music if loud?
2) I guess you need some kind of background music, either as entertainment or to supply some beat or rhythm to the players.
If so, and knowing that your walls mean nothing to stop audio, both points make me suggest a distributed speaker setup, so as to maximize sound inside and minimize it outside.
I would prefer a distributed ceiling speaker setup ... but you have no ceiling and doubt you will build a structural pipe "grid" to hang them from, so second best would be surrounding the Gym with speakers, not_too_loud , at roof height (i.e. where your "walls" end) and pointing downwards a little (say, 15 degrees) for improved coverage inside.
I'd use 8 2 way, 8" and tweeter cabinets , 6 along the long walls, 2 in the center of the short ones.
Something similar to this.
To simplify installation and considering that you do NOT want bone crushing levels (or your neighbours will kill you 😀 ) I'd wire 4 speakers on one side series parallel to get 8 ohms impedance, do the same with the other v4, and drive them from a DJ powered mixer or a typical PA powered box.
Distances are not that large, a small loss if of no importance, so I suggest direct connecting as said above, without line transformers or distributed power.
It's a Gym,after all, and you can't go very loud anyway.
Supposed it was some kind of product exhibition stand, yellow cubes were carpet covered plywood to show some product , say motorcycles or a car or whatever.
And ... what was the violet ramp for?
A car in display maybe?
Besides, I had to google "parkour" ....
People in a specific trade think everybody else in the World knows what they're talking about 🙄
WOW !!!!!!!!
Do you mean this?:
TEMPEST FREERUNNING ACADEMY - GYM VIDEO - YouTube
Amazing !!!!
Ok, 2 points:
1) I guess you use that area, but you are part of a larger enclosed space (per your first 2 pictures).
https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/d...olUro-91bkokfTrL89r2X7hZjlVunlGBvTQ=w973-h376
https://lh4.googleusercontent.com/Q...aCM6bOv32WmLksJxk9wEKS6plLz2xYynxEQ=w973-h376
Does anybody else use the rest of that warehouse for other purposes?
Stands selling stuff, fast food, whatever?
Will they be annoyed by your music if loud?
2) I guess you need some kind of background music, either as entertainment or to supply some beat or rhythm to the players.
If so, and knowing that your walls mean nothing to stop audio, both points make me suggest a distributed speaker setup, so as to maximize sound inside and minimize it outside.
I would prefer a distributed ceiling speaker setup ... but you have no ceiling and doubt you will build a structural pipe "grid" to hang them from, so second best would be surrounding the Gym with speakers, not_too_loud , at roof height (i.e. where your "walls" end) and pointing downwards a little (say, 15 degrees) for improved coverage inside.
I'd use 8 2 way, 8" and tweeter cabinets , 6 along the long walls, 2 in the center of the short ones.
Something similar to this.
To simplify installation and considering that you do NOT want bone crushing levels (or your neighbours will kill you 😀 ) I'd wire 4 speakers on one side series parallel to get 8 ohms impedance, do the same with the other v4, and drive them from a DJ powered mixer or a typical PA powered box.
Distances are not that large, a small loss if of no importance, so I suggest direct connecting as said above, without line transformers or distributed power.
It's a Gym,after all, and you can't go very loud anyway.
Thanks so much for all these answers. Apologies for not expanding on what Parkour is. JMFahey is correct, I do just assume that everyone understands what parkour/freerunning is.
We would like to be able to go louder than background music, maybe not quite as loud as a club at full volume, but getting there.
Here's the Sonos product I have referred to > Sonos CONNECT Wireless HiFi Player
Our area is for our sole use, although it is connected to another building, it has very thick walls. We have a ceiling that is just shy of 5 metre's high.
In this picture you an see the ceiling and the steel that holds it up https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B77UIZpjB82tc2U5aURZejcxR1E/edit?usp=sharing
I was given some advice to get 4 of these and wire it straight back to the Sonos unit.
Do people have any thoughts on that solution?
Thanks again for your help.
We would like to be able to go louder than background music, maybe not quite as loud as a club at full volume, but getting there.
Here's the Sonos product I have referred to > Sonos CONNECT Wireless HiFi Player
Our area is for our sole use, although it is connected to another building, it has very thick walls. We have a ceiling that is just shy of 5 metre's high.
In this picture you an see the ceiling and the steel that holds it up https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B77UIZpjB82tc2U5aURZejcxR1E/edit?usp=sharing
I was given some advice to get 4 of these and wire it straight back to the Sonos unit.
Do people have any thoughts on that solution?
Thanks again for your help.
Ok.
1) the Sonos system is only an audio distribution system, nothing else, no power on its own.
What it will do is simplify wiring.
If it suits you, and the transmitter and the individual receivers are well within your budget, fine with me. 🙂
2) that Behringer powered system is fine, is the larger brother of what I showed.
When I mentioned "background" music and concentrating it on site, avoiding "spills", was in consideration to other possible users, but since you own the place ...........
I'd use 6 in total, 2 spread on each long wall and 1 in the middle of each short one ... if I understood your drawings properly.
You have the capability to drive those kids deaf 😉
Mount them against the walls (or safely hanging from them ) some 3 or 4 meters high, pointing slightly downwards, towards the center of the Gym.
You will need to run electrical conduit all around the place and provide an outlet box for each powered speaker and matching receiver.
I saw you painted the place yourselves ... fine .... but get a Certified Electrician to make the Electrical installation.
When you open, post some videos 🙂
1) the Sonos system is only an audio distribution system, nothing else, no power on its own.
What it will do is simplify wiring.
If it suits you, and the transmitter and the individual receivers are well within your budget, fine with me. 🙂
2) that Behringer powered system is fine, is the larger brother of what I showed.
When I mentioned "background" music and concentrating it on site, avoiding "spills", was in consideration to other possible users, but since you own the place ...........
I'd use 6 in total, 2 spread on each long wall and 1 in the middle of each short one ... if I understood your drawings properly.
You have the capability to drive those kids deaf 😉
Mount them against the walls (or safely hanging from them ) some 3 or 4 meters high, pointing slightly downwards, towards the center of the Gym.
You will need to run electrical conduit all around the place and provide an outlet box for each powered speaker and matching receiver.
I saw you painted the place yourselves ... fine .... but get a Certified Electrician to make the Electrical installation.
When you open, post some videos 🙂
With a little planning, subwoofers could be built into some of the obstacles so they wouldn't be visible. You can always start with something like the Behringers and add subs later if you think the sound needs better bass response.
My only other thought is the space itself. Since the warehouse is larger, do you plan to eventually expand into the rest of it? If so, you might consider mounting the speakers up high and wiring the rest of the warehouse at the same time. The advantage would be the speakers would be completely out of the way. On the other hand, if you know for sure you will only stay in the space shown in your drawings, then definitely mount the speakers down low pointing into that space. It will sound better with the speakers down low because it will reduce echo and it will be louder. The disadvantage is you don't want people running up walls and hanging off them... The challenge will be installing everything in such a way so it will be "gorilla" proof.
The Sonos source is fine. Pretty much any source will work fine. One thing you might consider is focusing on a source or finding a remote extender that uses RF rather than IR. If you have a radio frequency (RF) remote control, it will work from anywhere in the facility. If you have an infrared remote (IR), then it will only work in close proximity to the Sonos unit where the Sonos can "see" the remote signal. Can be a pain if you want the equipment put away out of sight.
The advantage of self powered speakers like those Behringers is that it's very easy to add more later if you need better coverage or want to get louder. The negative is you will need an electrician to run AC power to each speaker location. The alternative would be use a power amplifer and run speaker cables to each location. The advantage is often you don't need a licensed electrician to run speaker cables so it would likely cost less (you need to check to be sure). If you do decide to run speaker cables, just make sure to run heavy wire and because it's commercial it would be best run in conduit. Again, placement is critical or you will find people hanging from the pipe... You will likely be running fairly long distances and loss in the wire mounts up. So you want to be sure you run something like 10 gauge wire otherwise bass response will suffer.
I would suggest going to at least a couple of places that do professional audio and asking questions to see what they suggest. Other alternatives to the Behringers would be EV, JBL and Peavey to name a few. Not that the Behringers aren't just fine because they are. All I'm suggesting is that you check out all available options. Self powered speakers will likely cost more than passive cabinets. However, by the time you buy a power amp and passive cabinets the cost will even out. So, it really comes down to the install and how expensive having power run to each location will cost.
I too want to see pics of how it turns out once completed.
VERY cool!!!!
Steve
My only other thought is the space itself. Since the warehouse is larger, do you plan to eventually expand into the rest of it? If so, you might consider mounting the speakers up high and wiring the rest of the warehouse at the same time. The advantage would be the speakers would be completely out of the way. On the other hand, if you know for sure you will only stay in the space shown in your drawings, then definitely mount the speakers down low pointing into that space. It will sound better with the speakers down low because it will reduce echo and it will be louder. The disadvantage is you don't want people running up walls and hanging off them... The challenge will be installing everything in such a way so it will be "gorilla" proof.
The Sonos source is fine. Pretty much any source will work fine. One thing you might consider is focusing on a source or finding a remote extender that uses RF rather than IR. If you have a radio frequency (RF) remote control, it will work from anywhere in the facility. If you have an infrared remote (IR), then it will only work in close proximity to the Sonos unit where the Sonos can "see" the remote signal. Can be a pain if you want the equipment put away out of sight.
The advantage of self powered speakers like those Behringers is that it's very easy to add more later if you need better coverage or want to get louder. The negative is you will need an electrician to run AC power to each speaker location. The alternative would be use a power amplifer and run speaker cables to each location. The advantage is often you don't need a licensed electrician to run speaker cables so it would likely cost less (you need to check to be sure). If you do decide to run speaker cables, just make sure to run heavy wire and because it's commercial it would be best run in conduit. Again, placement is critical or you will find people hanging from the pipe... You will likely be running fairly long distances and loss in the wire mounts up. So you want to be sure you run something like 10 gauge wire otherwise bass response will suffer.
I would suggest going to at least a couple of places that do professional audio and asking questions to see what they suggest. Other alternatives to the Behringers would be EV, JBL and Peavey to name a few. Not that the Behringers aren't just fine because they are. All I'm suggesting is that you check out all available options. Self powered speakers will likely cost more than passive cabinets. However, by the time you buy a power amp and passive cabinets the cost will even out. So, it really comes down to the install and how expensive having power run to each location will cost.
I too want to see pics of how it turns out once completed.
VERY cool!!!!
Steve
Last edited:
Sonos Connect
Looks like the Sonos is controlled via a phone or tablet so no worries about a remote being able to see the controller unless you go to some other source unit. That thing looks pretty cool!
Que bacon frying sound - "This is the sound of your mind on audio..."
Please keep us posted on your project. Again, it's very cool.
Good luck,
Steve
Looks like the Sonos is controlled via a phone or tablet so no worries about a remote being able to see the controller unless you go to some other source unit. That thing looks pretty cool!
Que bacon frying sound - "This is the sound of your mind on audio..."
Please keep us posted on your project. Again, it's very cool.
Good luck,
Steve
These replies have really helped me to start making some choices.
I think in the first instance, I'm going to go for a power amp with four speakers. I'll post up some of my choices, to see how they fare against your knowledge.
I will of course, post some more pictures up.
I think in the first instance, I'm going to go for a power amp with four speakers. I'll post up some of my choices, to see how they fare against your knowledge.
I will of course, post some more pictures up.
After a bit of review reading, you tube watching, and shooting in the dark; I came across this.
I was planning on running 4 of these off the amp above.
In a couple of the YT videos, and in some of the comments on here, there has been talk of adding a bass speaker/s. Would I be able to add some bass speakers to this as well as run four of those speakers?
Thanks for the continued guidance and help.
I was planning on running 4 of these off the amp above.
In a couple of the YT videos, and in some of the comments on here, there has been talk of adding a bass speaker/s. Would I be able to add some bass speakers to this as well as run four of those speakers?
Thanks for the continued guidance and help.
You can add many channels to the source, after the volume control, as the volume control can supply current for.
For long interconnect cables to speaker located power amplifiers, the source MUST be able to drive the input impedance of the amplifier, the capacitance of it's RF filter and the cable capacitance. The cable capacitance may require more current capability than the amp & filter.
These extra channels can be full range, or treble only, or bass only.
Ensure the OUTPUT of your Source can drive cable capacitance.
One source driving one power amp with a 3m cable can need as little as 1mApk of current capability.
A 50m cable could increase this to ~5mApk.
Four channels takes that to ~20mApk
Adding 4 channels of bass only could double it again to 40mApk.
The Source MUST have a Buffer to meet the peak current demand of all the channels.
For long interconnect cables to speaker located power amplifiers, the source MUST be able to drive the input impedance of the amplifier, the capacitance of it's RF filter and the cable capacitance. The cable capacitance may require more current capability than the amp & filter.
These extra channels can be full range, or treble only, or bass only.
Ensure the OUTPUT of your Source can drive cable capacitance.
One source driving one power amp with a 3m cable can need as little as 1mApk of current capability.
A 50m cable could increase this to ~5mApk.
Four channels takes that to ~20mApk
Adding 4 channels of bass only could double it again to 40mApk.
The Source MUST have a Buffer to meet the peak current demand of all the channels.
1) I think you are complicating it.
To boot, 6KW inside that small space is way over deafening .
And it's a Gym, not a dancing place anyway.
People must be able to speak to each other, listen to shouts such as "hey !! move aside !!! I'm falling over you!! " or whatever.
And you'll start to need considering speaker cable resistance.
2) I won't bash Behringer automatically, they have some cool products, but a "10000W for 50 bucks" class amp isn't that trustworthy .... not even the original ones they are cloning are (ICE Power, etc.).
Plus they are absolutely disposable 🙁
The powered cabinet solution is great for inexperienced people bacause it simplifies many decisions, such as amps are by definition matched to their loads, crossovers too, power levels, impedance, any preshaping needed,even limiter threshold if they have limiters (most modern ones do).
Many incorporate digital preprocessing to correct specific flaws or simply tweak optimum sound.
You are not only buying "speakers + amps in a package" but built in expertise.
3) You can distribute audio by cable or wireless .
You suggested the wireless solution, looks cool, and was your own idea, it's an option.
The wired one is easy and cheap and in no way as bleak or hard to drive as implied above.
FWIW I have run 100M cables without special problems, from simple Op Amps (NE5534), any decent mixer can do that.
(48000 seat Buenos Aires River Plate Stadium, sound booth in the far end, 60 meters straight line but bends and detours add up to 100 meters):
(same at night):
Don't know why a shorter run would be as hard as described.
Let's put some numbers into it:
Standard shgielded wire has 33 pF per foot, some 100pF per meter/yard.
A worst case 30 meter cable in that Gym will have: 30*1000=3000 pF .
Add to that 100pF ( a typical value) of amp input RF filtering , for a grand total of 3300pF (with 3 powered cabinets per side).
This is equivalent to a worst case 2400 ohms capacitive reactance load at 20 KHz.
Since any decent mixer line out is specified to drive 600 ohms load, we might have to drive 4 such systems per channel to reach the limit.
It's fine to consider all angles but let's use real World values.
Plus parkourschwass is an Audio inexperienced user trying to get a practical solution to a practical problem, once.
After he solves it, he'll go back to walk on the roof, upside down, and any other impossible feats they do there 🙂
FWIW I must be showing my age, I had to google parkour but my 25 y.o.
son looked at me like at a living dinosaur when I asked him, of course he knew all about it. 🙂
Oh well 🙂
So in a nutshell:
keep it reasonable 🙂 (6 KW? ... ouch !!!)
personally I'd suggest a powered speaker solution, if not a standard power amp but avoid "wonder" amps, stay with tried and true.
standard wiring will work but your wireless solution is still valid.
yes, you can add a couple powered subwoofers near the center of the place.
deep bass is omnidirectional anyway.
don't get carried away by salesmen sweet but poisoned chatter, nor by wonder You Tube demos of esoteric/WOW!! stuff .
To boot, 6KW inside that small space is way over deafening .
And it's a Gym, not a dancing place anyway.
People must be able to speak to each other, listen to shouts such as "hey !! move aside !!! I'm falling over you!! " or whatever.
And you'll start to need considering speaker cable resistance.
2) I won't bash Behringer automatically, they have some cool products, but a "10000W for 50 bucks" class amp isn't that trustworthy .... not even the original ones they are cloning are (ICE Power, etc.).
Plus they are absolutely disposable 🙁
The powered cabinet solution is great for inexperienced people bacause it simplifies many decisions, such as amps are by definition matched to their loads, crossovers too, power levels, impedance, any preshaping needed,even limiter threshold if they have limiters (most modern ones do).
Many incorporate digital preprocessing to correct specific flaws or simply tweak optimum sound.
You are not only buying "speakers + amps in a package" but built in expertise.
3) You can distribute audio by cable or wireless .
You suggested the wireless solution, looks cool, and was your own idea, it's an option.
The wired one is easy and cheap and in no way as bleak or hard to drive as implied above.
FWIW I have run 100M cables without special problems, from simple Op Amps (NE5534), any decent mixer can do that.
(48000 seat Buenos Aires River Plate Stadium, sound booth in the far end, 60 meters straight line but bends and detours add up to 100 meters):
(same at night):
Don't know why a shorter run would be as hard as described.
Let's put some numbers into it:
Standard shgielded wire has 33 pF per foot, some 100pF per meter/yard.
A worst case 30 meter cable in that Gym will have: 30*1000=3000 pF .
Add to that 100pF ( a typical value) of amp input RF filtering , for a grand total of 3300pF (with 3 powered cabinets per side).
This is equivalent to a worst case 2400 ohms capacitive reactance load at 20 KHz.
Since any decent mixer line out is specified to drive 600 ohms load, we might have to drive 4 such systems per channel to reach the limit.
It's fine to consider all angles but let's use real World values.
Plus parkourschwass is an Audio inexperienced user trying to get a practical solution to a practical problem, once.
After he solves it, he'll go back to walk on the roof, upside down, and any other impossible feats they do there 🙂
FWIW I must be showing my age, I had to google parkour but my 25 y.o.
son looked at me like at a living dinosaur when I asked him, of course he knew all about it. 🙂
Oh well 🙂
So in a nutshell:
keep it reasonable 🙂 (6 KW? ... ouch !!!)
personally I'd suggest a powered speaker solution, if not a standard power amp but avoid "wonder" amps, stay with tried and true.
standard wiring will work but your wireless solution is still valid.
yes, you can add a couple powered subwoofers near the center of the place.
deep bass is omnidirectional anyway.
don't get carried away by salesmen sweet but poisoned chatter, nor by wonder You Tube demos of esoteric/WOW!! stuff .
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