I finally got some 200 hours on my Alpair A7P’s, so I did a shoot-out. Mind, you, this is my room, my speakers, my opinion. Nothing more, nothing less.
The music files are on my laptop. The laptop fed the DAC directly, no miniDSP, etc. The DAC is a Topping D20, the amps is the Yuan-Jing TDA3116.
The drivers under test were the A7P and A7.3 mounted in my T7-A7 38” 4:1 tapered TL. The A10P was in my B10-A10 BR and the A10M in my 40” MLTL.
Since this was a “what I like best” test rather than a “is there a difference” ABX test, I made no effort to match SPL. Indeed, I adjusted the SPL somewhat for each speaker and sometimes a track for best sound. However, the general SLP was around 75dB. I was sitting 8’ from speakers set 8’ apart and the speakers were toed out ~15*. I was using Foobar2000 for the music player and I has ReplayGain set to “track”. Since I did not have my subs on line, I added a 6dB smiley-face EQ In FB2K between 100 and 30Hz to warm up the bass a bit. Brick wall cut-off below that.
Here is my play list, alphabetically by first name, the way music players seem to want to do it:
Adam Lambert “Trespassing”
Alison Kraus “Forget About It”
Antonio Vivaldi “Concerto for Viola d’more RV396”
Antonio Vivaldi “Chamber Concerto RV101”
Carla Lother “Captain Coragous”
Diana Krall “All or Nothing at All”
Fleetwood Mac “Never Going Back Again”
Norah Jones “Tell Your Mama”
Steely Dan “Josie”
Igor Stravinsky “Royal March” from “A Soldier’s Tale”
Stephano Landi “Homo fugit velut umbra” (I dare you to find this one!)
First up was the A10P’s, since they have been in my 2-channel for months now. Gave them a good listen as a reference. Without the subs, but with a bit of bass boost, they do a very credible job in a BR.
Next up were the A7P’s. Much brighter sound than the A10P’s. Much better top end. More detail? Maybe. Many drivers with a tilted-up FR are claimed to have greater detail, but once the up-tilt is flattened, the “life” goes out of the driver. IMO up-tilt has nothing to do with “detail” and if the detail goes away when the FR is flattened, the “detail” is fake. So, my dilemma. Is the apparent additional detail real or an artifact of the overall brightness. For now, I vote for better detail. My go to track for top end is the Fleetwood Mac “Never Going Back Again”. Listen closely to the mandolin. Yes, I think there is more detail on top. I also note that the A10P’s sound, well, bigger. The A10P’s have more presence than the A7P’s.
Now a quick change and put the A7M’s in the TL’s. What a difference between the A7P’s and the A7M’s. The A7M’s are laid-back in comparison. Smoother and more gentle. Then there is the “detail” thing. Besides being less bright there seems to be less clarity at the top. Again the brightness/detail dilemma. Perhaps 200hr is not enough to break the A7P’s in. They are going back into the HT for another month. Then I will compare the two A7’s again. At this point, the A7P is not my go to Alpair.
Finally I dragged the A10M MLTL’s out of a corner of the room where they have be sleeping for several months while I have been playing with FAST systems. Oh, my! I forgot how good the bass is in those MLTL’s. I had to kill the bass EQ in fb2k. And again, the presence of the 10cm driver over the 7cm drivers is quite remarkable. The A10M is smoother and more laid-back than the A10P and for sure the A7P. I didn’t have time to do a comparison of the A10M and A10P in the MLTL cabinet. That will have to wait. I suspect that, for me, the A10P in the MLTL will be the sweet spot.
In conclusion, the paper drivers are brighter and have a better top end than the corresponding metal driver. From my measurements of the two 10cm drivers, this does not show in the FR plots. It is a subjective thing based on the overall sound of the two drivers. The same seems to be true of the 7cm drivers. The paper driver sound brighter, more detailed and has a better top. The ear/brain is a wonderful thing. If you are using a glass amp that is inherently laid-back, your choice might be different. For me, the A10P in a MLTL is the current choice.
Bob
The music files are on my laptop. The laptop fed the DAC directly, no miniDSP, etc. The DAC is a Topping D20, the amps is the Yuan-Jing TDA3116.
The drivers under test were the A7P and A7.3 mounted in my T7-A7 38” 4:1 tapered TL. The A10P was in my B10-A10 BR and the A10M in my 40” MLTL.
Since this was a “what I like best” test rather than a “is there a difference” ABX test, I made no effort to match SPL. Indeed, I adjusted the SPL somewhat for each speaker and sometimes a track for best sound. However, the general SLP was around 75dB. I was sitting 8’ from speakers set 8’ apart and the speakers were toed out ~15*. I was using Foobar2000 for the music player and I has ReplayGain set to “track”. Since I did not have my subs on line, I added a 6dB smiley-face EQ In FB2K between 100 and 30Hz to warm up the bass a bit. Brick wall cut-off below that.
Here is my play list, alphabetically by first name, the way music players seem to want to do it:
Adam Lambert “Trespassing”
Alison Kraus “Forget About It”
Antonio Vivaldi “Concerto for Viola d’more RV396”
Antonio Vivaldi “Chamber Concerto RV101”
Carla Lother “Captain Coragous”
Diana Krall “All or Nothing at All”
Fleetwood Mac “Never Going Back Again”
Norah Jones “Tell Your Mama”
Steely Dan “Josie”
Igor Stravinsky “Royal March” from “A Soldier’s Tale”
Stephano Landi “Homo fugit velut umbra” (I dare you to find this one!)
First up was the A10P’s, since they have been in my 2-channel for months now. Gave them a good listen as a reference. Without the subs, but with a bit of bass boost, they do a very credible job in a BR.
Next up were the A7P’s. Much brighter sound than the A10P’s. Much better top end. More detail? Maybe. Many drivers with a tilted-up FR are claimed to have greater detail, but once the up-tilt is flattened, the “life” goes out of the driver. IMO up-tilt has nothing to do with “detail” and if the detail goes away when the FR is flattened, the “detail” is fake. So, my dilemma. Is the apparent additional detail real or an artifact of the overall brightness. For now, I vote for better detail. My go to track for top end is the Fleetwood Mac “Never Going Back Again”. Listen closely to the mandolin. Yes, I think there is more detail on top. I also note that the A10P’s sound, well, bigger. The A10P’s have more presence than the A7P’s.
Now a quick change and put the A7M’s in the TL’s. What a difference between the A7P’s and the A7M’s. The A7M’s are laid-back in comparison. Smoother and more gentle. Then there is the “detail” thing. Besides being less bright there seems to be less clarity at the top. Again the brightness/detail dilemma. Perhaps 200hr is not enough to break the A7P’s in. They are going back into the HT for another month. Then I will compare the two A7’s again. At this point, the A7P is not my go to Alpair.
Finally I dragged the A10M MLTL’s out of a corner of the room where they have be sleeping for several months while I have been playing with FAST systems. Oh, my! I forgot how good the bass is in those MLTL’s. I had to kill the bass EQ in fb2k. And again, the presence of the 10cm driver over the 7cm drivers is quite remarkable. The A10M is smoother and more laid-back than the A10P and for sure the A7P. I didn’t have time to do a comparison of the A10M and A10P in the MLTL cabinet. That will have to wait. I suspect that, for me, the A10P in the MLTL will be the sweet spot.
In conclusion, the paper drivers are brighter and have a better top end than the corresponding metal driver. From my measurements of the two 10cm drivers, this does not show in the FR plots. It is a subjective thing based on the overall sound of the two drivers. The same seems to be true of the 7cm drivers. The paper driver sound brighter, more detailed and has a better top. The ear/brain is a wonderful thing. If you are using a glass amp that is inherently laid-back, your choice might be different. For me, the A10P in a MLTL is the current choice.
Bob
Bob,
I performed a comparison in Dec. 2013 (posted on this forum) between my A10.2 (with hundreds of hours of use) and my A10P (with 100 hours break-in). I mounted each driver in identical 7 liter cabinets (just because I had those at hand). I used a mono recording of the Beatles' "Sgt. Pepper's Lonely Hearts Club Band" as my source material. My conclusions were very similar to yours. I like the A10.2, and I really like the A10P.
I performed a comparison in Dec. 2013 (posted on this forum) between my A10.2 (with hundreds of hours of use) and my A10P (with 100 hours break-in). I mounted each driver in identical 7 liter cabinets (just because I had those at hand). I used a mono recording of the Beatles' "Sgt. Pepper's Lonely Hearts Club Band" as my source material. My conclusions were very similar to yours. I like the A10.2, and I really like the A10P.
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Hi Bob,
How was the bass response in A7p compare to A7.3 ... And are they very much inferior to the bigger A10 s ??
Thanks and regards
S Sarath
How was the bass response in A7p compare to A7.3 ... And are they very much inferior to the bigger A10 s ??
Thanks and regards
S Sarath
Bob,
I found driving FR paper driver via Class D amplifier tends to highlight the brightness of this kind of driver. If you change over to say bipolar trans. or even chipamp(LM3875) based amplifier you will tame the brightness of this driver to some degree.
Having said that Class D amp. tends to make the sound rorm paper FR and amp combination more lively. So it depends on what kind of music and the mood you are in when listening to music.
I found driving FR paper driver via Class D amplifier tends to highlight the brightness of this kind of driver. If you change over to say bipolar trans. or even chipamp(LM3875) based amplifier you will tame the brightness of this driver to some degree.
Having said that Class D amp. tends to make the sound rorm paper FR and amp combination more lively. So it depends on what kind of music and the mood you are in when listening to music.
Not much difference. This is cabinet dependent. In my TL, both go into the 40's. A touch of bass boost adds warmth and definition to the bass.
I made no such statement. The 10's sound bigger because they move more air. But you give up some top and definition. It depends on the application -- room size, listening distance, etc. Also, I was using these drivers in single driver speakers. My main setup uses big woofer to cover the bottom 200Hz. That completely changes the ground rules. The A7M.3 remains my favored driver in this 2-way setup. The A10P is my favorite for a single driver speaker.
Bob
I agree. The 10p and 10m are a tough tie for me, and would be my choice if I was looking for a pure single driver solution. The 7.3m with bass support however would be my overall favorite implementation of the Mark Audio drivers.
Curious if the 12p could be added to these comparisons Bob. Thanks for your experienced judgements on this.
I never warmed up to the A12P. I like the A10P better on all counts. However, if you need loud, the A12P is a very nice driver. A bit weaker than the A10P on top but that is expected.
Bob
Bob
And just to throw in a different view -I'm the opposite. I like the 10P, but I prefer the 12P. There's something, probably in its microdynamic capability, that's very impressive. It pulls off that trick electrostatics do well of having the leading edge of notes take you by surprise. I can't measure it (Mark obviously can, though probably it probably wouldn't show up in the usual plots), but it's there.
A10P 2, A12P 1. Any more to add to this poll?
In reality, you have to have both and decide for your self.
Bob
In reality, you have to have both and decide for your self.
Bob
a very small sample group for MAOPs ( 7cm in my case) - I'll wonder out loud for Scott about a 12 with this treatment 😱
…not sure that this is helpful, but here goes:
I have the 10Ps in Bob's B10-A10 cabinets and love them! Why? …no boomy one note bass that can be a feature in BR cabs, great highs and mated to a sealed sub crossed around 80hz, wouldn't disappoint anyone. And maybe also the pride of the mesquite/turquoise thing I did on them.
I have the 12P in Scott's regular Pensil cabinet and I love them too. Why? I've never felt the need to use a sub with them, I can easily get away with my 2A3 mono blocks to drive them and they are a bit more "life like" due to the greater size of both drivers and cab.
Can't really comment on either drivers in isolation as they're both in different cabs…..so…..
Regards,
Mario
I have the 10Ps in Bob's B10-A10 cabinets and love them! Why? …no boomy one note bass that can be a feature in BR cabs, great highs and mated to a sealed sub crossed around 80hz, wouldn't disappoint anyone. And maybe also the pride of the mesquite/turquoise thing I did on them.
I have the 12P in Scott's regular Pensil cabinet and I love them too. Why? I've never felt the need to use a sub with them, I can easily get away with my 2A3 mono blocks to drive them and they are a bit more "life like" due to the greater size of both drivers and cab.
Can't really comment on either drivers in isolation as they're both in different cabs…..so…..
Regards,
Mario
I wish. It'd have to be based on the old unit of course since oxidising paper in this way might prove a trifle problematic. 😀
well, yes it would be a very limited production item, and if one has to ask the price - you know the rest😀
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