Hello community from Germany.
I'm new to the forum and I can say that I'm ignorant in terms of calculation, development and especially the subtleties of a quality enclosure, but luckily I'm good at implementing it. In the last month I've spent a lot of time going through the forum and especially the FR part of it, looking for information related to a combo FR driver - enclosure for the listening room. Unfortunately, I am totally overwhelmed by the multitude of right combinations, for which I appeal to the well-known kindness of the community of this forum. I would like you to recommend me a combo driver - enclosure for a 30 square meter room which is already fairly neutral acoustically. Favorite music is Jazz and slow blues 90% the rest classical and others,low to medium listening level.For size it can reach up to medium (up to 1.2m high). As it is discussed heatedly and he knows that there is no perfection in measurements, so I will not want something like that, I want him to sing naturally as pleasantly as possible for connoisseurs. I am open to any proposal from you.
Thank you in advance for your support.
Alex
I'm new to the forum and I can say that I'm ignorant in terms of calculation, development and especially the subtleties of a quality enclosure, but luckily I'm good at implementing it. In the last month I've spent a lot of time going through the forum and especially the FR part of it, looking for information related to a combo FR driver - enclosure for the listening room. Unfortunately, I am totally overwhelmed by the multitude of right combinations, for which I appeal to the well-known kindness of the community of this forum. I would like you to recommend me a combo driver - enclosure for a 30 square meter room which is already fairly neutral acoustically. Favorite music is Jazz and slow blues 90% the rest classical and others,low to medium listening level.For size it can reach up to medium (up to 1.2m high). As it is discussed heatedly and he knows that there is no perfection in measurements, so I will not want something like that, I want him to sing naturally as pleasantly as possible for connoisseurs. I am open to any proposal from you.
Thank you in advance for your support.
Alex
Greets!
Welcome!
Just a quick note: well recorded classical music is very wide range, dynamic, so doing it with just an 'FR' driver ideally requires a big one on a large baffle, which has its own set of shortcomings, so what do you mean by 'combo'?
Welcome!
Just a quick note: well recorded classical music is very wide range, dynamic, so doing it with just an 'FR' driver ideally requires a big one on a large baffle, which has its own set of shortcomings, so what do you mean by 'combo'?
Thanks Hugo,
I noticed that the majority discussed (in the last period of time) are the drivers from Markaudio, but also these with their pluses and minuses. So I let the connoisseurs and enthusiasts decide.
Alex
I noticed that the majority discussed (in the last period of time) are the drivers from Markaudio, but also these with their pluses and minuses. So I let the connoisseurs and enthusiasts decide.
Alex
Thanx for answering the first question that popped up. A Combo is a speaker + box.
What kind of budget? One of the first (modestly priced) suggestion would be CHN-110 in Pensil. https://frugal-phile.com/boxlib/pensils/PensilCHN110-141119.pdf
As to the dilemma of so much choice. 2 and a half decades ago when i started out there were something like a dozen boxes on-line. Many, including Scott, Chris, and myself, have made that number into literaly hundreds of choices. Despite the almost inevitable decision indecision, this is a good thing. You just need to dive in and build something.
A diy speaker builder rarely stops at a single build, What you learn from the first build will get your brain churning and inform your next. Some have built 10s of boxes, we have built hiundreds (and likely got 1000+ at least sketched up, most unreleased). @waxxa and @xrk971 are fairly prolific as well amounst others.
dave
What kind of budget? One of the first (modestly priced) suggestion would be CHN-110 in Pensil. https://frugal-phile.com/boxlib/pensils/PensilCHN110-141119.pdf
As to the dilemma of so much choice. 2 and a half decades ago when i started out there were something like a dozen boxes on-line. Many, including Scott, Chris, and myself, have made that number into literaly hundreds of choices. Despite the almost inevitable decision indecision, this is a good thing. You just need to dive in and build something.
A diy speaker builder rarely stops at a single build, What you learn from the first build will get your brain churning and inform your next. Some have built 10s of boxes, we have built hiundreds (and likely got 1000+ at least sketched up, most unreleased). @waxxa and @xrk971 are fairly prolific as well amounst others.
dave
Hello Dave,
Thank you for a first suggestion
I'm sure that your experience with Scott and many other enthusiasts has made you have hundreds of projects completed, this is also the reason why I am turning to your goodwill on this path. As I said, you are a bunch of super passionate people and you know what you are doing and take everything to the extreme, which is not the case for many of us (and mine of course).
Regarding the budget 6-700€ final product, I think it is enough to get something more than satisfactory
Alex
How much does quality plywood cost in Germany? And how much/what is the final finish?
Given the budget a pricier driver could likely be had if the other bits aren’t too much.
dave
Given the budget a pricier driver could likely be had if the other bits aren’t too much.
dave
I hope that a budget of 300-350€ ( +/-) is enough to get quality drivers.
But if there is going to be a small positive difference, I might add more, that's why initially the amount was approximate.
But if there is going to be a small positive difference, I might add more, that's why initially the amount was approximate.
It is. CHN-110 are just over $100 USD, and others going up to your budget. Lots of potential choices.
But do factor in the cost of the other bits, good plywood seems to be getting quite dear and skimping on encloure quality will kill the sonics of even a very top-notch FR.
2 sheets of quality plywood could be 300-350€, you need to factor in many more bits than that.
dave
But do factor in the cost of the other bits, good plywood seems to be getting quite dear and skimping on encloure quality will kill the sonics of even a very top-notch FR.
2 sheets of quality plywood could be 300-350€, you need to factor in many more bits than that.
dave
I looked up some Euro pricing. Just looked at Markaudio which makes many my favorite drivers.
CHN-110 (6”) https://www.soundimports.eu/en/markaudio-chn-110.html
A11ms (6”) https://www.soundimports.eu/en/markaudio-alpair-11ms-gold.html
And they still have A10s. 6 of one, half dozen of the other, i like th epaper come:
https://www.soundimports.eu/en/markaudio-alpair-10-gold.html
https://www.soundimports.eu/en/markaudio-alpair-10p.html
A zillion box for these, lots of experience in the field.
And i was surprised, the “top of the line” MAOP 10 could just squeeze into your budget. You might consider a smaller box (1 less sheet of plywood to afford these.
https://kjfaudio.com/product/maop-10/
Many have followed in the path Leif tread early on (first?): https://www.diyaudio.com/community/threads/alpair-maop-10-2.378493/
dave
CHN-110 (6”) https://www.soundimports.eu/en/markaudio-chn-110.html
A11ms (6”) https://www.soundimports.eu/en/markaudio-alpair-11ms-gold.html
And they still have A10s. 6 of one, half dozen of the other, i like th epaper come:
https://www.soundimports.eu/en/markaudio-alpair-10-gold.html
https://www.soundimports.eu/en/markaudio-alpair-10p.html
A zillion box for these, lots of experience in the field.
And i was surprised, the “top of the line” MAOP 10 could just squeeze into your budget. You might consider a smaller box (1 less sheet of plywood to afford these.
https://kjfaudio.com/product/maop-10/
Many have followed in the path Leif tread early on (first?): https://www.diyaudio.com/community/threads/alpair-maop-10-2.378493/
dave
Thanks Dave,
I try not to discount the quality of the components.
Good, we narrow down the recommendation for the driver to the three MA...CHN-110, A11 ms and A10 (is there a difference between the ones recommended by you and 10.3?).
Which of the three fully meets my usage requirements and in what environment does it display its true value?
Alex
A10.3, 3rd generation 5.25”metal coe FR.
A10p 1st gen 5.25” paper cone FR. (but with the same experience as the metal)
A10.2 MAOP is something akin to the A10.3 where the cone is bombarded with electrons to change the top few molecules into essentially a ceramic increasing DDR.
I have A7 MAOP, @LeifB60 and others can chip in on it's character & quality. I’d wager they hold their own against exotica 2 or 3 or more times pricier.
A10p has a bit more romantic midrange and a vintage/soft top end. Most that i did up went to guys with SETs.
Metal vrs paper? 6 of one, half dozen of another. The metal cone
dave
@Matt81 build of Mar-KenM10T
A10p 1st gen 5.25” paper cone FR. (but with the same experience as the metal)
A10.2 MAOP is something akin to the A10.3 where the cone is bombarded with electrons to change the top few molecules into essentially a ceramic increasing DDR.
I have A7 MAOP, @LeifB60 and others can chip in on it's character & quality. I’d wager they hold their own against exotica 2 or 3 or more times pricier.
A10p has a bit more romantic midrange and a vintage/soft top end. Most that i did up went to guys with SETs.
Metal vrs paper? 6 of one, half dozen of another. The metal cone
dave
@Matt81 build of Mar-KenM10T
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I am firmly convinced of the differences in the construction (and costs at the same time) of the drivers, but this difference is observable (obvious) and in practice (listening)?
Strictly speaking, it is worth the difference of approximately 80% (as well as costs) for 10-15 % plus performance?
I am referring here to A10.3 vs MAOP 10.2.
Alex
Strictly speaking, it is worth the difference of approximately 80% (as well as costs) for 10-15 % plus performance?
I am referring here to A10.3 vs MAOP 10.2.
Alex
A10.3 is very good. MAOP 10 gilds its performance, smoother, with greater DDR (think small details). In the whole scope of things it is probably a small difference.
You will likely be thrilled by either.
The MAOP will drop into the box you build for the A10.3. And at some point you may start wondering what the MAOP brings.
And now let me lead you down another pathway. I EnABLed a lot of Markaudios, the most popular the Alpair 7.3eN
We aquired a pair of Alpair 7 MAOP which are the gussied up A7.3.
In compoarisons the EnABLed driver came VERY close to the stock MAOP with it being a tiny bit less coloured. I have not been brave enuff to EnABL the MAOP. At the time you could buy A7.3eN and the MAOP{ was send your money to Hong Kong and wait. MAOPs were very rare. Not so much now, and if you want EnABLed drivers you’ll need to diy (full instructions here*, you need to practice on some drivers you won’t mind if you screw up before doing the good ones.
dave
*(Posts 13, 14, 15, 16 https://www.diyaudio.com/community/...ressions-techniques.119676/page-2#post1460270
Post 101 outlines the tap test)
You will likely be thrilled by either.
The MAOP will drop into the box you build for the A10.3. And at some point you may start wondering what the MAOP brings.
And now let me lead you down another pathway. I EnABLed a lot of Markaudios, the most popular the Alpair 7.3eN
We aquired a pair of Alpair 7 MAOP which are the gussied up A7.3.
In compoarisons the EnABLed driver came VERY close to the stock MAOP with it being a tiny bit less coloured. I have not been brave enuff to EnABL the MAOP. At the time you could buy A7.3eN and the MAOP{ was send your money to Hong Kong and wait. MAOPs were very rare. Not so much now, and if you want EnABLed drivers you’ll need to diy (full instructions here*, you need to practice on some drivers you won’t mind if you screw up before doing the good ones.
dave
*(Posts 13, 14, 15, 16 https://www.diyaudio.com/community/...ressions-techniques.119676/page-2#post1460270
Post 101 outlines the tap test)
If you havent noticed, there's - in Audio - an asymptote called perfection. On the way up to that, imagine a curve that, like mathematical constructs, attempts to approach the asymptote, but never quite makes it in theory. Imagine "closer to fine" is your Y axis, $ is your X; now you can see why an 80% cost adder nets 10-15% performance improvement. 1000% maybe brings it from 15 to 20...
So you have to decide just where on this curve, approaching audio perfection, you want to "sit". That's a function of $ and its companion, effort. Such a decision requires consideration of practicalities; for example, I'm 68 - does my hearing really need an additional expense for a supertweeter? Do I honestly have room for 18" bass drivers / cabinets? Is where I'm living permanent; am I stuck with this room that acoustically limits what I can do realistically? Do I have neighbors, living on floors above and below?
Regarding effort, building an enclosure is massively more effortful than buying a driver, connecting its terminals and screwing it down in place on the baffle. It'd make sense to build a cabinet which can successfully accommodate the widest range of drivers possible, if such a thing exists. Unless you really like woodworking so much you're willing to spend on the materials / equipment to make it a regular thing you do. It is to wonder if that Mar-Ken is a "better" enclosure than the speaker it holds, as it'll hold a lot of 'em and do pretty much as well as anything else you could drop a particular series of drivers into.
There is a spot on that curve that's "just right" - for you. Your job as an audiophile is to find where that is - and land on it squarely. Then be satisfied with your accomplishment ;')
Elaborate work and I do not dispute the results obtained.
In the meantime, after the last post, I browsed the forum again and came to the decision to purchase Maop 10.
Following this decision, I would like to ask you to recommend an enclosure for it.
I am convinced that " this virus" is acquired once you have the opportunity to meet and interact with people dedicated to the profession and hobby.
So which is the premises that brings out the best of Maop 10?
Thanks for the tips
Alex
In the meantime, after the last post, I browsed the forum again and came to the decision to purchase Maop 10.
Following this decision, I would like to ask you to recommend an enclosure for it.
I am convinced that " this virus" is acquired once you have the opportunity to meet and interact with people dedicated to the profession and hobby.
So which is the premises that brings out the best of Maop 10?
Thanks for the tips
Alex
The Frugel-Horns try to do just that, but they do have limits. Frugel-Horn XL for the A10s.
Every enclosure/loudpeaker is a set of compromises. Not sure which thread, but a discussion currently happening about how to make rectangualr edge boxes like the FH or Pensil have the diffration signature of the heavily chamfered miniOnkens.
dave
There are way more than these, but the goto suggestions for an M10 would be Frugel-Horn XL (maximum bottom, gain, room placement counts more than usual), the Pensil which goes almost as low but has a smaller footprint with a more conventional look, and then the trapezoid miniOnken which emphasizes finese and elegance, if you want loys of deep bass, helper woofers.
There are other TLs, basik reflex enclosures, ML-Voigts, big horns too.
dave
There are other TLs, basik reflex enclosures, ML-Voigts, big horns too.
dave