There is no denying that. The thing is women don't care for the things men care for. Women in general don't care for the looks of cars...they can't even seperate one BRAND from another, let's not even get into model. They don't care about hifi either. If you'd ask a woman which cd-player looks better the Sony or the Meridian...she would probably say...they are both square and black..boring boring boring...
In in a way she would be correct...but a man could positively drool...and one of the two could become his wet dream...and he would collect brochures and magazines...and almost fall in love with this model or that model...whereas women would simply want it to work and be affordable. I am not saying that the man's way is the way...all I'm saying that we look at things very very very very differently.
That's true!Bas Horneman said:
I think this is because men are more inclined to see beyond the mask and in to the workings, the prestige, the sense of achievement, etc, etc. Women call a spade a spade.
Agreed. If you ever watch designing shows on TV, you'll notice that if
there is a stereo/HT system in the room, it invariably ends up stuck
in a cabinet with doors, hidden away like an old Lazyboy rocker with
ductape on the arms.
Jeff
Well my mate does not complain! Because if she does...I'll tell her how much it sucks to have to live in a house where I have no say in what goes where and in what colour!!! And that the hifi is the only ...only thing where I have jurisdiction over! And please pretty please leave one teeny weeny (well maybe bigger) place for me in the house.
That brings us back to the whole point...it seems you'd have to visually please the woman of the house as much as the man...and produce it cheaply..if you have done that..you will be the Boss of the New Bose but with a Stereophile stamp of approval.
So good luck with your project Richard!
I think we forgot one important thing: Beauty lies in the eye of the beholder.
There is design that is quite neutral and design that isn't. Most horn speakers belong to the second fraction. The ones that I have seen form close-up so far are the large Acappella and most of the Avantgarde range. They all look great IMO (they are very clear design statements) but they are visually dominant. And most of the time they are just standing around doing nothing but collecting dust.
OTOH there is equipment that is less dominant from the size point-of-view but the design by itself is also rather extreme and not neutral either but many people find it cool. I am talking of B&O. Many people know it just because it is advertised in many non-audio-related mags. And it is often prominently placed in movies etc (but have you ever seen anyone listening to music in a movie or soap ?).
If any of the horn systems were placed that prominently that often - people would perceive them differently I assume.
Regards
Charles
There is design that is quite neutral and design that isn't. Most horn speakers belong to the second fraction. The ones that I have seen form close-up so far are the large Acappella and most of the Avantgarde range. They all look great IMO (they are very clear design statements) but they are visually dominant. And most of the time they are just standing around doing nothing but collecting dust.
OTOH there is equipment that is less dominant from the size point-of-view but the design by itself is also rather extreme and not neutral either but many people find it cool. I am talking of B&O. Many people know it just because it is advertised in many non-audio-related mags. And it is often prominently placed in movies etc (but have you ever seen anyone listening to music in a movie or soap ?).
If any of the horn systems were placed that prominently that often - people would perceive them differently I assume.
Regards
Charles
kinda like the look of these...
http://www.voidaudio.com/product_detail.asp?id=42
they sound pretty good too!
http://www.voidaudio.com/product_detail.asp?id=42
they sound pretty good too!
Hi again,
Sorry I havent posted sooner, been busy with coursework! Anyway, although the thread has gone slightly off-topic, still really useful to me, everyone's big concern seems to be WAF! I'll certainly be designing with this in mind, and will take some female only surveys on styling etc. I imagine smooth slender elegent styling to win over bold 'look at me' chunky styling.
Anyway, my speakers are going to have to be 2 way to achieve full range, (maybe I should've started this thread elsewhere, but all the front loaded horn stuff seemed to be in here) with a bass driver being employed from around 200Hz down. I've been looking into the various ways I could impliment this, and although another horn is attractive, and would possibly integrate with the mid horn best, The compactness of a sealed box seems attractive. Obviously, efficiency might be a problem, however was thinking of using a plate amp, and making this part active.
Also been looking at Drivers and modelling some in WinISD. Maybe I'm missing something, but the eminence drivers, in particular the Magnum 15LF seem very attractive - efficient, flat to way past what i need, and go down fairly low.
The extension of a sub driver such as a Shiva or Tempest, Peerless XLS etc looks nice, but I'm concerned about the low efficiency, and freq responce at around 200-500Hz (will it roll off smoothly?)
Has anybody any opinions/comments/reccomendations on what I should do?
Cheers, Richard.
Sorry I havent posted sooner, been busy with coursework! Anyway, although the thread has gone slightly off-topic, still really useful to me, everyone's big concern seems to be WAF! I'll certainly be designing with this in mind, and will take some female only surveys on styling etc. I imagine smooth slender elegent styling to win over bold 'look at me' chunky styling.
Anyway, my speakers are going to have to be 2 way to achieve full range, (maybe I should've started this thread elsewhere, but all the front loaded horn stuff seemed to be in here) with a bass driver being employed from around 200Hz down. I've been looking into the various ways I could impliment this, and although another horn is attractive, and would possibly integrate with the mid horn best, The compactness of a sealed box seems attractive. Obviously, efficiency might be a problem, however was thinking of using a plate amp, and making this part active.
Also been looking at Drivers and modelling some in WinISD. Maybe I'm missing something, but the eminence drivers, in particular the Magnum 15LF seem very attractive - efficient, flat to way past what i need, and go down fairly low.
The extension of a sub driver such as a Shiva or Tempest, Peerless XLS etc looks nice, but I'm concerned about the low efficiency, and freq responce at around 200-500Hz (will it roll off smoothly?)
Has anybody any opinions/comments/reccomendations on what I should do?
Cheers, Richard.
I don't think you are missing something..because Robert Bastani uses Eminence drivers as well for his speakers..and his speakers are also aimed at tube/valve amp users. His Prometheus also uses a Eminence driver for the subwoofer...
OK, that's interesting, a friend reccomended I had a look at them, and the Magnum 15LF seems to measure quite well in WinISD. I get -3dB at about 58Hz in a sealed Q=0.7 box. A sealed box is attractive to me because of the low (better than 5ms in this case) group delay, as I understand, high group delays (around 20ms) = boomy bass, although maybe I'm mistaken.
Can I do better than this driver for extension in a sealed box? A Shiva/Tempest/XLS is attractive for its extension, however I'm concerned about how quick it is + how clean it will sound when rolling off at 150-200Hz. Also heard that shiva starts naturally rolling off soon above 100Hz, and cant find any freq responces anywhere - Is this true?
Richard.
Can I do better than this driver for extension in a sealed box? A Shiva/Tempest/XLS is attractive for its extension, however I'm concerned about how quick it is + how clean it will sound when rolling off at 150-200Hz. Also heard that shiva starts naturally rolling off soon above 100Hz, and cant find any freq responces anywhere - Is this true?
Richard.
Richard,
I am not a specs man..but I can tell you this..after looking a the "traditional" type of woofers that are being used as a subwoofer ...and comparing them with the subwoofers I am using in the Prometheus...I can't help but think...that there is no way they will be as fast. But that is just my take on it..without ever having compared them with each other..so you can take that with a grain of salt...
In the end...one can do a lot conceptually when it comes to looks..but when it comes to good sound and one driver integrating with another...there is only blood, sweat and tears....you really have to build the stuff..change..listen...change again....measure ....listen...measure..think...listen...change.....well you get the picture.
Regards,
Bas
I am not a specs man..but I can tell you this..after looking a the "traditional" type of woofers that are being used as a subwoofer ...and comparing them with the subwoofers I am using in the Prometheus...I can't help but think...that there is no way they will be as fast. But that is just my take on it..without ever having compared them with each other..so you can take that with a grain of salt...
In the end...one can do a lot conceptually when it comes to looks..but when it comes to good sound and one driver integrating with another...there is only blood, sweat and tears....you really have to build the stuff..change..listen...change again....measure ....listen...measure..think...listen...change.....well you get the picture.
Regards,
Bas
Front Horn Design
Hi everyone, and thanks again for all the comments left before.
I've spent some time researching the best way to make a front horn for what I want. I found the spreadsheet for Round tractrix horns from http://www.volvotreter.de particularly useful, hornresp also seems to agree with the figures generated by the spreadsheet.
Anyway I want a front horn to work to around 200Hz with a Fostex FE206e, and maybe later a Lowther. I've attached an engineering drawing of the horn (dimensions in mm), and as I'm new to this I wouldnt be suprised if I've overlooked something! So please let me know if what I've come up with looks like a disaster waiting to happen, or if it has some potential!
(one thing i'm slightly concerned with is the depth as I've read that deeper=warmer, and as an Oris 150 is around 40cm deep (I dont know how deep an Oris 200 is) is my depth of 29.4cm going to mean overly bright, especially with a stronger driver?)
Thanks, Richard.
Hi everyone, and thanks again for all the comments left before.
I've spent some time researching the best way to make a front horn for what I want. I found the spreadsheet for Round tractrix horns from http://www.volvotreter.de particularly useful, hornresp also seems to agree with the figures generated by the spreadsheet.
Anyway I want a front horn to work to around 200Hz with a Fostex FE206e, and maybe later a Lowther. I've attached an engineering drawing of the horn (dimensions in mm), and as I'm new to this I wouldnt be suprised if I've overlooked something! So please let me know if what I've come up with looks like a disaster waiting to happen, or if it has some potential!
(one thing i'm slightly concerned with is the depth as I've read that deeper=warmer, and as an Oris 150 is around 40cm deep (I dont know how deep an Oris 200 is) is my depth of 29.4cm going to mean overly bright, especially with a stronger driver?)
Thanks, Richard.
Attachments
Re: Front Horn Design
the 206 will be loaded from 280 to 800 cycles. It will not be bright at all. It will be rolled off --- The best single driver I've heard in that size horn with a 1:1 throat is the 6.5" Tannoy DC - with no back chamber they go from 250 to 20k and sound excellent. Not too sensitive and not capable of very high output but very, very good sounding
rabw said:
the 206 will be loaded from 280 to 800 cycles. It will not be bright at all. It will be rolled off --- The best single driver I've heard in that size horn with a 1:1 throat is the 6.5" Tannoy DC - with no back chamber they go from 250 to 20k and sound excellent. Not too sensitive and not capable of very high output but very, very good sounding
Thanks for your reply. Rolled off is what I was expecting, but I intend to use a seperate bass enclosure. I would've liked to get to 200Hz, or at least near to that. Is 280 cycles where you think useful output stops? My Horn is larger than an Oris 200 I think...
The 206 in my 180 Hz round tractrix horns 1:1 throat went to just under 300 Hz. Rolled off meaning above 800 Hz. The driver is way too weak to drive the front horn in the upper midrange and treble . I used many different size back chambers and the smaller the better but still too weak - "mass rolloff" - a Lowther wou be better suited.
Hmmm, were you dissapointed with your results then? How rolled off, do you use a seperate tweeter? How do people get away with using a 206 in an Oris horn then, surely they have no treble aswell? How steep is the roll off at the bottom end?
I guess some people just like that kind of sound - I gave the drivers to my brother-in-law. He uses them with no horn and a sub.
Thanks Magnetar,
I'll have to look into this further.. If anyone has any experiance with a 206e in a Front horn, then please let me know what it was like/what problems you had. Infact if anyone has any tips or things to avoid please let me know!
There seems to be a number of people using 206e's in the Oris horns and are pleased, I wonder how recessed the top end is on these... guess i really need to go and have a listen.
I'll have to look into this further.. If anyone has any experiance with a 206e in a Front horn, then please let me know what it was like/what problems you had. Infact if anyone has any tips or things to avoid please let me know!
There seems to be a number of people using 206e's in the Oris horns and are pleased, I wonder how recessed the top end is on these... guess i really need to go and have a listen.
I must add I used no phase plug - surely that would make a big difference in the highs. PS- I''m still a seperate 'tweeter' type of guy - whizzers either sound rolled off or 'fake' to me. I've found a good horn loaded dual concentric is much more to my taste
Hmm, maybe it will be ok for me.
I'm currently using the drivers in the reccomended Fostex backhorn. Mine have been modified, I was happy (enough) with the treble before, but with the planet 10 phase plugs this really sounds like a different driver, so much more detail - almost as if the sound is sharper without any hardness.
I'm having a plate amp made to roll off at up to 240Hz with variable roll off to be used with an Eminence magnum 15LF in a sealed box - I really hope I can get low enough to integrate with it, my initial impression and results after playing with excel spreadsheets made me think that useable to below 250hz from the horn would be no problem.... I read that an oris200 is good to 250Hz, and my horn measures up between the 200 and 150.
Thanks for posting, Richard.
I'm currently using the drivers in the reccomended Fostex backhorn. Mine have been modified, I was happy (enough) with the treble before, but with the planet 10 phase plugs this really sounds like a different driver, so much more detail - almost as if the sound is sharper without any hardness.
I'm having a plate amp made to roll off at up to 240Hz with variable roll off to be used with an Eminence magnum 15LF in a sealed box - I really hope I can get low enough to integrate with it, my initial impression and results after playing with excel spreadsheets made me think that useable to below 250hz from the horn would be no problem.... I read that an oris200 is good to 250Hz, and my horn measures up between the 200 and 150.
Thanks for posting, Richard.
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