Newbie in electronics, I'm not sure what I'm doing and would need some advice.
Here's the story:
I am currently using the nanodigi with 3 digital amplifiers (STA326) but plan to switch to analog amplifiers (TPA3255). In absolute terms I would have invested in an Okto Research dac8 PRO between the nanodigi and the amplifiers but for now I have to be content with a reduced budget.
I would have gone with multiple FIIO D03K (or similar ones) like in the "Elegant solution" in linkwitzlab if Amir (audio science review) had not demonstrated their limit in 48kHz and knowing that the output of the nanodigi is always at 96kHz so it's risky).
I also thought of using coax to analog diy boards but unfortunately, the existing ones (like this ones) would be complicated to integrate into a single box with the nanodigi itself.
So the solution I found is to use a coax to i2S converter board followed by an i2S to analog board.
For the coax to i2s board I selected 2 options :
- one based on a DIR9001 chip.
- and the other on an AK4118 chip.
For the i2s to analog, this one based on a ES9023 chip.
So I have a lot of questions, of which here are the first:
- What do you think of these choices? do they make more sense than using FIIO D03K dac, or is there a risk of having worse performance?
- Do you have other boards/solutions to suggest?
- What about power supplies? What do you recommend?
- What to do with the clock (master clock)?
- Am I making my life too complicated?😕😉
Here's the story:
I am currently using the nanodigi with 3 digital amplifiers (STA326) but plan to switch to analog amplifiers (TPA3255). In absolute terms I would have invested in an Okto Research dac8 PRO between the nanodigi and the amplifiers but for now I have to be content with a reduced budget.
I would have gone with multiple FIIO D03K (or similar ones) like in the "Elegant solution" in linkwitzlab if Amir (audio science review) had not demonstrated their limit in 48kHz and knowing that the output of the nanodigi is always at 96kHz so it's risky).
I also thought of using coax to analog diy boards but unfortunately, the existing ones (like this ones) would be complicated to integrate into a single box with the nanodigi itself.
So the solution I found is to use a coax to i2S converter board followed by an i2S to analog board.
For the coax to i2s board I selected 2 options :
- one based on a DIR9001 chip.
- and the other on an AK4118 chip.
For the i2s to analog, this one based on a ES9023 chip.
So I have a lot of questions, of which here are the first:
- What do you think of these choices? do they make more sense than using FIIO D03K dac, or is there a risk of having worse performance?
- Do you have other boards/solutions to suggest?
- What about power supplies? What do you recommend?
- What to do with the clock (master clock)?
- Am I making my life too complicated?😕😉
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An 'I2S to analog converter' or a 'SPDIF to analog converter' is more commonly known as a DAC (Digital to Analog Converter). For example, one might refer to an 'I2S input DAC', or a 'SPDIF input DAC.'
IMHO the most complicated part of what you are trying to do is likely going to be the implementation of the DAC and dealing with clocking issues. It can get a bit complicated when dealing with a USB-or-SPDIF source -> DSP -> DAC -> Amplifier&Speakers system architecture. Mostly there has to be some clocking strategy between the various stages of digital processing, be it synchronous operation, ASRC (Asynchronous Sample Rate Conversion), or possibly multiple stages of ASRC.
Regarding sound quality, does it matter?
How much electronics construction work and or DSP chip programming are you willing to do?
IMHO the most complicated part of what you are trying to do is likely going to be the implementation of the DAC and dealing with clocking issues. It can get a bit complicated when dealing with a USB-or-SPDIF source -> DSP -> DAC -> Amplifier&Speakers system architecture. Mostly there has to be some clocking strategy between the various stages of digital processing, be it synchronous operation, ASRC (Asynchronous Sample Rate Conversion), or possibly multiple stages of ASRC.
Regarding sound quality, does it matter?
How much electronics construction work and or DSP chip programming are you willing to do?
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Thank you for your answer "Markw4".
I know very well that it is about dac. I wanted to change the title, but it seems that this is not possible. (And, by the way, not so long ago, most dacs didn't have a usb input but only spdif fiber / coax inputs.)
Either, it is very unlikely that I will start programming anything or immerse myself in the realization of complex electronic circuits. So it was more about assembling existing circuit boards. Not out of laziness, but just that starting from scratch, I unfortunately do not have the time to immerse myself headlong into all of this.
The general idea is to find a simplified board capable of converting 24bit-96kHz signals with the least amount of degradation. Basically a simple circuit like the one found in mini dacs at 30 bucks for televisions or gaming consoles but with better quality components/conversion chips.
Also, for integration constraints in the same box with the nanodigi, the coax input must not be on the same side as the analog outputs, which eliminates many existing pre-assembled dac bords. Whoever I can still unsolder the RCA connectors and install new ones on the back side of the case. Stupidly, I hadn't thought about it before...
Otherwise yes, indeed the nanodigi by itself - for inherent reasons to its operation - converts everything that enters into it to 24bit-96kHz. The concern is actually what happens afterwards because, for the temporal management of the channels of a speaker when, for example, the tweeter signal must be delayed so that it is correlated with that of the medium which is slower by nature. Doesn't that output to multiple dacs increase the chances of an approximation caused by different processing latency from dac to dac? Probably it remains imperceptible. But it would actually be better to start with a single processor for the simultaneous management of the channels as on the Okto Research dac8 PRO cited in the first post.
However my planned configuration is composed as follows: Computer via Topping D10s (coax output) or TV (fiber spdif output) -> [| Nanodigi (dsp / crossover) -> 3 dac (coax to analog)] * -> 3 TPA3255 based Amp -> 3 ways diy speakers. (* in the same box).
I thought of going on three TOPPING E30 after the nanodigi but at a third of the price of the Oktodac8 I think the investment is not very opportune in addition to being not very elegant. The idea is therefore to find "something" that I can integrate with the nanodigi in a single box, rather qualitative but at a lower cost.
So which pre-assembled coax to analog "diy" board dac at a low price (less than 50 €) would you recommend ?
I know very well that it is about dac. I wanted to change the title, but it seems that this is not possible. (And, by the way, not so long ago, most dacs didn't have a usb input but only spdif fiber / coax inputs.)
Either, it is very unlikely that I will start programming anything or immerse myself in the realization of complex electronic circuits. So it was more about assembling existing circuit boards. Not out of laziness, but just that starting from scratch, I unfortunately do not have the time to immerse myself headlong into all of this.
The general idea is to find a simplified board capable of converting 24bit-96kHz signals with the least amount of degradation. Basically a simple circuit like the one found in mini dacs at 30 bucks for televisions or gaming consoles but with better quality components/conversion chips.
Also, for integration constraints in the same box with the nanodigi, the coax input must not be on the same side as the analog outputs, which eliminates many existing pre-assembled dac bords. Whoever I can still unsolder the RCA connectors and install new ones on the back side of the case. Stupidly, I hadn't thought about it before...
Otherwise yes, indeed the nanodigi by itself - for inherent reasons to its operation - converts everything that enters into it to 24bit-96kHz. The concern is actually what happens afterwards because, for the temporal management of the channels of a speaker when, for example, the tweeter signal must be delayed so that it is correlated with that of the medium which is slower by nature. Doesn't that output to multiple dacs increase the chances of an approximation caused by different processing latency from dac to dac? Probably it remains imperceptible. But it would actually be better to start with a single processor for the simultaneous management of the channels as on the Okto Research dac8 PRO cited in the first post.
However my planned configuration is composed as follows: Computer via Topping D10s (coax output) or TV (fiber spdif output) -> [| Nanodigi (dsp / crossover) -> 3 dac (coax to analog)] * -> 3 TPA3255 based Amp -> 3 ways diy speakers. (* in the same box).
I thought of going on three TOPPING E30 after the nanodigi but at a third of the price of the Oktodac8 I think the investment is not very opportune in addition to being not very elegant. The idea is therefore to find "something" that I can integrate with the nanodigi in a single box, rather qualitative but at a lower cost.
So which pre-assembled coax to analog "diy" board dac at a low price (less than 50 €) would you recommend ?
Which pre-assembled coax to analog "diy" board dac at a low price (less than 50 €) would I recommend?
Sorry to say that I cannot recommend any. They are low priced so they can be produced as cheaply as possible and still make a profit for manufacturer and a profit for the retailer. Some have a genuine name-brand DAC chip on them, but that's the only thing on the board that is not the cheapest junk possible. Unfortunately, the DAC chip does not determine the sound quality of the DAC board, the chip only sets an upper limit on the possible performance if everything else about the board is implemented ideally. The bottom line is that some cheap DAC boards with name brand chips (for example, ES9038Q2M) can sound awful without a number of diy modifications to the circuitry.
Therefore, you might want to consider low cost dac boards with less fancy DAC chips that are otherwise decently implemented.
In view of all the foregoing, the lowest cost DAC I might recommend would probably be Allo Boss2: BOSS2 Acrylic You would need to provide a clean +5v power supply it.
Sorry to say that I cannot recommend any. They are low priced so they can be produced as cheaply as possible and still make a profit for manufacturer and a profit for the retailer. Some have a genuine name-brand DAC chip on them, but that's the only thing on the board that is not the cheapest junk possible. Unfortunately, the DAC chip does not determine the sound quality of the DAC board, the chip only sets an upper limit on the possible performance if everything else about the board is implemented ideally. The bottom line is that some cheap DAC boards with name brand chips (for example, ES9038Q2M) can sound awful without a number of diy modifications to the circuitry.
Therefore, you might want to consider low cost dac boards with less fancy DAC chips that are otherwise decently implemented.
In view of all the foregoing, the lowest cost DAC I might recommend would probably be Allo Boss2: BOSS2 Acrylic You would need to provide a clean +5v power supply it.
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okay, at this price it is even better to go on three Topping E30 ... but it's really not what I find most elegant in the sense of the integration level with my planned system...too many cables...
The Khadas Tone Board is an option that has been used with the NanoDigi successfully. A bit cheaper than the E30 at $85-100 USD per board vs $150, and the KTB comes as a raw circuit board which makes it a bit easier to incorporate into a single enclosure project.
Any system with the NanoDigi is going to suffer from cable bloat, unfortunately. With the KTB you should be able to hide them in a box rather than having them visible, though.
Any system with the NanoDigi is going to suffer from cable bloat, unfortunately. With the KTB you should be able to hide them in a box rather than having them visible, though.
Yes "dwK123", I had thought about it as well. But precisely, if a qualitative card like this one can come out at this price with usb, I say to myself that without usb perhaps it would be possible to do even a little less expensive one. I understand that the simple coax to analog dacs, as there were plenty of them before, have less room today. But it's a bit of a shame to find either very low-end things or dacs with inputs / options that will never be useful to me as to others in my case. But okay, this is a "niche market" (but not that much when we see the number of purchases of mini-dac spdif for television).
That said, I'm still waiting to see the price of the Tone2 (diy board, not the one sold in its box) because, despite everything, it could be very interesting with its balanced outputs and competitively much more profitable for my use as for example the "E30 pro". At the same time, since three E30 pro exceed the price of one okto dac8 pro, this would be a very crazy buy !
That said, I'm still waiting to see the price of the Tone2 (diy board, not the one sold in its box) because, despite everything, it could be very interesting with its balanced outputs and competitively much more profitable for my use as for example the "E30 pro". At the same time, since three E30 pro exceed the price of one okto dac8 pro, this would be a very crazy buy !
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For example, here is one of the implementation of the harmonie between nanodigi and Khadas Tone boards set to music by a french guy, here.
That said, between the box, the power supplies and the 3 or even 4 Tone Boards that I would need, we are once again approaching half the price of an Okto Dac8 ... So it is already an economy made but it may not be the smartest solution there is. And maybe there is no viable, qualitative and low-cost alternative today...
That said, between the box, the power supplies and the 3 or even 4 Tone Boards that I would need, we are once again approaching half the price of an Okto Dac8 ... So it is already an economy made but it may not be the smartest solution there is. And maybe there is no viable, qualitative and low-cost alternative today...
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I was looking for the same thing a couple of months back when I got a Nanodigi. I did come across an 8 channel dac board from Diyinhk based on the ES9038PRO chip. It is an i2s in dac so you would have to tap in to the i2s lines of the Nanodigi. If you search on the Minidsp forum, others who have used the i2s out of the Nanodigi have shared the pinout. My speaker plans have been put on the back burner so I'm currently only using mine as a stereo subwoofer crossover fed into two stereo dacs. In the future when I move ahead with my build this will probably be the solution I try first. I don't have any experience with Diyinhk's products and can't find much feedback on this board. But as you already know there aren't many options otherwise
The diyinhk 8-channel ES9038PRO PCB looks to be better than some of their earlier attempts. At least they put an internal ground plane in this one. I would disagree with a number of design choices they appear to have made. However, it is low-cost and probably a reasonable value considering the price. Okto on the other hand has to include a case, power supplies, a user manual, a user interface for dac chip control, a sturdy-enough shipping box, etc. By the time one has implemented all those things diy style, probably as much real effort gone into it as just buying an Okto. The Okto is hopefully better designed as well, although from looking at pictures of the boards inside it maybe not all that much better. Looked to me like there was some opportunity for improvement anyways. That said, it might represent a good price/performance value too.
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@thirdicomplex,
Thank you for this interesting find but what especially repels me is the lack of documentation. For a beginner like me, it doesn't seem easy at all to set it up.
@Markw4,
You're absolutely right, the oktodac8pro is without competition at this price given - and in addition to its excellence (snr, thd, etc.) - its integration and its packaging which you have argued very well.
One day I will afford one (or his successor), that's for sure. It's just that I have a lot of expenses lately and that I have to do with little even more in the current context.
I keep in mind a possible use of the Khadas Tone 2 (diy board) for its possible symmetrical output*, but while waiting to know more about its price and its real characteristics, I come back to my "assemblies".
*[Speaking of balanced outputs, I also ran into this and that but I am not sure of the quality of these modules.]
After diving for a few hours in the datasheets, I don't see too much difference between the Dir9001 and the AK4118 in my use. As I said, the nanodigi outputs everything at 24bits-96kHz ... It seems to me that the DIR9001 is quite sufficient and that there is no fundamental difference in the digital domain at this level. The jitter?
For the i2s to analog dac part, my heart swings between a small board based on PCM5102A and another based on ES9023. The concern is that as much for the pcm5102A there is all the information available, for the ES9023 it is quite a headache. But, again, technically, the difference does not appear to be phenomenal. Does it sound any different? That's another story...
So, I know it won't have the dream performance of the oktodac or the Topping E30, but again, looking at my usage, I'm not sure that makes much of a difference. no ? What do you think ?
Behind, there will not be Benchmark AHB2 amps, but just TPA3255 amps ... And at the loudspeaker level the distortion is much higher...
So yes, it is not thought of that way. But, despite everything, wouldn't that deserve to think twice? (here I am not sure that my translation to English is the right one but hey, the wine is very good... haha)
(And just for information, this "dsp / dac / amp set" will also be used for the development of DIY and potentially marketable speakers. I am not (yet) gifted in electronics but do not lack skills for other things ...)
Thank you for this interesting find but what especially repels me is the lack of documentation. For a beginner like me, it doesn't seem easy at all to set it up.
@Markw4,
You're absolutely right, the oktodac8pro is without competition at this price given - and in addition to its excellence (snr, thd, etc.) - its integration and its packaging which you have argued very well.
One day I will afford one (or his successor), that's for sure. It's just that I have a lot of expenses lately and that I have to do with little even more in the current context.
I keep in mind a possible use of the Khadas Tone 2 (diy board) for its possible symmetrical output*, but while waiting to know more about its price and its real characteristics, I come back to my "assemblies".
*[Speaking of balanced outputs, I also ran into this and that but I am not sure of the quality of these modules.]
After diving for a few hours in the datasheets, I don't see too much difference between the Dir9001 and the AK4118 in my use. As I said, the nanodigi outputs everything at 24bits-96kHz ... It seems to me that the DIR9001 is quite sufficient and that there is no fundamental difference in the digital domain at this level. The jitter?
For the i2s to analog dac part, my heart swings between a small board based on PCM5102A and another based on ES9023. The concern is that as much for the pcm5102A there is all the information available, for the ES9023 it is quite a headache. But, again, technically, the difference does not appear to be phenomenal. Does it sound any different? That's another story...
So, I know it won't have the dream performance of the oktodac or the Topping E30, but again, looking at my usage, I'm not sure that makes much of a difference. no ? What do you think ?
Behind, there will not be Benchmark AHB2 amps, but just TPA3255 amps ... And at the loudspeaker level the distortion is much higher...
So yes, it is not thought of that way. But, despite everything, wouldn't that deserve to think twice? (here I am not sure that my translation to English is the right one but hey, the wine is very good... haha)
(And just for information, this "dsp / dac / amp set" will also be used for the development of DIY and potentially marketable speakers. I am not (yet) gifted in electronics but do not lack skills for other things ...)
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I understand the Okto dac is probably a much better end product but the OP is not looking to buy one. A fair comparison would be to the dac boards being posted here. And I doubt any of them are going to blow away the diyinhk board, performance wise. OP, you mention reducing clutter. But using a separate spdif receiver+dac board is more clutter than using a dac board with the spdif receiver already on board. You can move the coax input or analog out connectors off board, like you mentioned before. Also, checking data sheets is not going to tell you much, as Markw4 mentioned before these are the upper limits of the chips being used. These eBay/aliexpress boards are most likely not going to measure anywhere near as well as the datasheet specs
@thirdicomplex, yes, the diyinhk board seems really interesting, what I wanted to say is that on the site I can't even find a small explanatory document or even a diagram about it. But you're absolutely right, it's probably a very viable solution, and certainly smarter in every way than my little assemblies. But the fact that there is no schema or documentation (even slight) available, does not motivate me to checkout. A priori it does not seem very complex to implement and I assume that the board must be correctly annotated but, in doubt, not easy to take the plunge. Maybe I missed something on the website...(?)
Regarding diyinhk, one usually can't know what one is getting until after its paid for, received, and even then only after one analyzes the circuit and layout. Personally, I have been disappointed in the past. Probably wouldn't bother trying anything else designed by them. However, they have been a good source for NDK SDA clocks.
Bonjour LeRouge,
Je devine que vous êtes français ???
Je suis en train de monter un filtre numérique avec un Nanodigi et 4 Dacs Khadas. Une évolution de celui que vous avez vu sur mon site !
Mais j'ai problème car toutes les sorties analogiques présentent une tension continue de 1,2 V !
Si je connecte les cartes Khadas via leurs prises USB, La tension en sortie tombe à 0 V !
Avez-vous déjà lu ou entendu quelque chose à ce sujet ?
Ce problème est très ennuyeux et je ne sais pas comment m'en sortir !
Cordialement.
Vous pouvez me répondre via l'adresse que vous trouverez sur mon site. Merci d'avance.
Hello LeRouge,
I guess you are French???
I am in the process of mounting a digital filter with a Nanodigi and 4 Dacs Khadas. An evolution of the one you saw on my site!
But I have a problem because all analog outputs have a DC voltage of 1.2 V!
If I connect the Khadas cards via their USB sockets, the output voltage drops to 0 V!
Have you ever read or heard anything about it?
This problem is very annoying and I don't know how to get out of it!
Kind regards.
You can answer me via the address you will find on my site. Thank you in advance.
I guess you are French???
I am in the process of mounting a digital filter with a Nanodigi and 4 Dacs Khadas. An evolution of the one you saw on my site!
But I have a problem because all analog outputs have a DC voltage of 1.2 V!
If I connect the Khadas cards via their USB sockets, the output voltage drops to 0 V!
Have you ever read or heard anything about it?
This problem is very annoying and I don't know how to get out of it!
Kind regards.
You can answer me via the address you will find on my site. Thank you in advance.