So Steve am I to understand that you do not mind the annoying noise in your otherwise perfect audiophile system?
I never said a Balanced AC would have any effect on Ripple, you did, but I said Interference. It is precisley because of our unbalanced AC and the PD between Neutral and ground that safely grounded systems are so suseptible to noise.
Furthermore any noise passed to the ground circuit, (in a safely grounded system), anywhere downstream of the Balanced supply will be summed to zero.
I think you need to see and hear the results for yourself as no amount of discussion will likely convince you otherwise.
By the way Steve, excellent discussion.
Peter:
Chassis Leakage currents are caused by the differential PD between Neutral and Earth Ground.
So apart from safety, wouldn't it be better not to ground the chassiss at all, or even better not to use chassiss as such?
Coulomb said:
I don't have any such annoying noise in my system to mind.
First, none of my chassis are tied to the AC safety ground so there are no chassis leakage currents to begin with (don't worry, they're double insulated to Class II standards).
Second, my inputs are transformer coupled so I don't even have the interchassis leakage currents which can cause noise even in systems run on balanced power. So in my particular system, balanced power simply has nothing to offer.
And my next system will be completely battery powered so the whole issue of the AC system will be completely moot as well.
Yes, you said interference, which is ambiguous and could mean any number of things. And I didn't ONLY say ripple. I said "It does nothing to reduce actual power supply noise, ripple, etc."
Yes. That's just what I already said.
Yes.
Convince me of what exactly? I've already stated quite clearly that balanced power can be effective as well as why it can be effective. It's just that MY particular system is designed such that balanced power won't have any benefit because the issues that balanced power addresses have already been addressed via other means (i.e. no safety ground and transformer coupling).
That doesn't mean that I'm saying it can't be useful for OTHER systems. It quite clearly can. Just that mine isn't one of them.
Thank you. 🙂
se
In a lot of circumstances an isolated signal ground from Electrical ground will eliminate hum and some noise. The problem then becomes how do you eliminate RF noise which is every where. Filtering noise to earth ground can be go both ways, it helps in some instance and hurts in others. So once you through in the Safety card, I say go with a chassis ground.
As Steve has eloquently pointed out already there are many ways of dealing with noise, so pick your poison.
I like to connect all my equipment together with a seperate 14 gauge wire and the connect it to Earth ground through a 1K resistor. Helps Static prevent static zaps too.
Anthony
As Steve has eloquently pointed out already there are many ways of dealing with noise, so pick your poison.
I like to connect all my equipment together with a seperate 14 gauge wire and the connect it to Earth ground through a 1K resistor. Helps Static prevent static zaps too.
Anthony
Just curious Steve, where did you learn so much about the ins and outs of grounding systems in an unbalanced AC service.
My excuse is I use to be an Electrician for Etobicoke Hydro, then graduated Electrical / Electronics Technology in College, then spent 6 months training on inspecting Electrical circuits in military hardware.
Now I buy DNA, Enzymes, Amino Acids and a host of disgusting goo for a Pharmaceutical company.
Anthony
My excuse is I use to be an Electrician for Etobicoke Hydro, then graduated Electrical / Electronics Technology in College, then spent 6 months training on inspecting Electrical circuits in military hardware.
Now I buy DNA, Enzymes, Amino Acids and a host of disgusting goo for a Pharmaceutical company.
Anthony
Coulomb said:
No one place in particular. Just stuff that I've accumulated in my dusty attic of a mind over 20 some odd years of playing around with electronics and audio.
I didn't go to high school, let alone college. Just the seat of my pants, a desire for knowledge and the gumption to go get it. 🙂
Hey, while it may not be as much fun, it's a much nobler job than anything in audio. Not aware of any piece of audio gear that can treat cancer or fight disease.
se
Guys, real balanced power is not power taken from 2 phases (of a 3-phase net). The Terminators delievers REAL balanced power galvanicly isolated from the mains. Those of you who have checked the datasheet know that the transformer is a huge 6kVA thing but there is also a smaller one (and cheaper) enough to feed normal hifi gear.
peranders said:
"Real balanced power" is simply an AC power source in which the impedances between hot/neutral and the safety ground are the same. Nothing more, nothing less.
You can achieve it using an isolation transformer with a center tapped secondary or you can achieve it with some sort of power regeneration scheme a la the PS Audio units. As long as the impedances between hot/neutral and the safety ground are the same, you've got "real balanced power."
Most balanced power devices use transformers, as the "Terminator" does. Some may include line filtering and other bells and whistles, but it's all "real balanced power."
se
Reading with interest.
Just wish I understood it all.
Ummm, since you guys understand this topic a lot better than I, what do you think of a powervar 12 - ABC 1200-11 for audio??
Already have. Did I do good?? If memory serves me right I paid 60 or 70 dollars including freight.
This sucker weighs close to 40 lbs. I figured I couldn't go too far wrong for an isolation transformer at $2.00 (US) per pound.
If you think this is pretty good, jdenzer on E-bay had a good many of these but is probably getting down to the last units. He was good to do business with.
I'm not associated with Jdenzer in any way. If I did pretty good I thought others might want to know they were available. If I didn't do so hot I hope the thread dies 😀
Ken L
Just wish I understood it all.
Ummm, since you guys understand this topic a lot better than I, what do you think of a powervar 12 - ABC 1200-11 for audio??
Already have. Did I do good?? If memory serves me right I paid 60 or 70 dollars including freight.
This sucker weighs close to 40 lbs. I figured I couldn't go too far wrong for an isolation transformer at $2.00 (US) per pound.
If you think this is pretty good, jdenzer on E-bay had a good many of these but is probably getting down to the last units. He was good to do business with.
I'm not associated with Jdenzer in any way. If I did pretty good I thought others might want to know they were available. If I didn't do so hot I hope the thread dies 😀
Ken L
Re: Reading with interest.
Can't say I'm familiar, but if it's center tapped on the output, you'll get the benefits of "balanced power."
se
Ken L said:
Can't say I'm familiar, but if it's center tapped on the output, you'll get the benefits of "balanced power."
se
interesting link - thread related
http://www.powervar.com/english/pdf/wp202.pdf
good read.
slowly becoming more clear -
not sure if this schematic indicates center tap - although it does look like the ground is bound to the secondary
Ken L
http://www.powervar.com/english/pdf/wp202.pdf
good read.
slowly becoming more clear -
not sure if this schematic indicates center tap - although it does look like the ground is bound to the secondary
Ken L
Re: interesting link - thread related
Ok, the Powervar addresses something completely different and has no real applicability to a home audio scenario.
What they're addressing are problems involved in commercial and industrial locations which are wired with three phase AC power. And no, they're not taking the safety ground from the center tap.
se
Ken L said:
Ok, the Powervar addresses something completely different and has no real applicability to a home audio scenario.
What they're addressing are problems involved in commercial and industrial locations which are wired with three phase AC power. And no, they're not taking the safety ground from the center tap.
se
I have two "audiophile" isolating transformers and one is supposed to be balanced.I get very good results sonically with them when connected to source and dac.On main amps I am not so sure.
I was thinking that I could make one myself by using two 0-55 trafos each giving 110V so that I could get 220V output .This would be "balanced" since one lead each would be tied to ground.
It's a much cheaper alternative than audiophile iso trafos which cost at least 500 euro for the smallest model.
Any comments?
I was thinking that I could make one myself by using two 0-55 trafos each giving 110V so that I could get 220V output .This would be "balanced" since one lead each would be tied to ground.
It's a much cheaper alternative than audiophile iso trafos which cost at least 500 euro for the smallest model.
Any comments?
Protos,
Make sure you choose transformers with electrostatic shields between the primary and secondary, and be sure to earth them.
Cheers,
Make sure you choose transformers with electrostatic shields between the primary and secondary, and be sure to earth them.
Cheers,
If you want to go to the extreme then you run your own generator driven by a motor that is hooked up to the public mains.
Regards
Charles
Regards
Charles
ES's are the most effective way of eliminating common mode interference.protos said:
I'm afraid that few toroids have them 🙁
Cheers,
I see in my RS catalogue that the industrial safety isolating transformers mention an earth screen between windings.
Does that fit the bill?
Perhaps these are a more cost efficient alternative to audiophile "approved" and expensive trafos.
Does that fit the bill?
Perhaps these are a more cost efficient alternative to audiophile "approved" and expensive trafos.
Protos,
I was wondering about that myself.
You'd have to make sure it didn't buzz, otherwise mount it in another room.
Cheers,
I was wondering about that myself.
You'd have to make sure it didn't buzz, otherwise mount it in another room.
Cheers,
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