I'm guessing placement could have a large influence on the speaker's abillity to impress with kick.
A very quick and dirty test with Vituixcad with one 12" placed on floor, 60 cm from back wall:
60 cm worked out best to get an even response when listened to at ~2.5 meter. Ideally it helps to be able to play with this in your room.
and compared to using the same distance from back wall but this time mounting the 12" close to the ceiling:
For kick drum, I'd want to have 60 to 250 Hz right and even. My solution would be to have multiple 12" boxes at various positions and heights to even out the dips caused by reflections. Imaging isn't important here, so just use multiple sources to even out the low end? EQ to taste...
You can use smaller speakers for the top end (250 Hz+) and hang those high.
If you also want flapping pants you'd need to get more output below 60 Hz and a different taste in music 😀.
A very quick and dirty test with Vituixcad with one 12" placed on floor, 60 cm from back wall:
60 cm worked out best to get an even response when listened to at ~2.5 meter. Ideally it helps to be able to play with this in your room.
and compared to using the same distance from back wall but this time mounting the 12" close to the ceiling:
For kick drum, I'd want to have 60 to 250 Hz right and even. My solution would be to have multiple 12" boxes at various positions and heights to even out the dips caused by reflections. Imaging isn't important here, so just use multiple sources to even out the low end? EQ to taste...
You can use smaller speakers for the top end (250 Hz+) and hang those high.
If you also want flapping pants you'd need to get more output below 60 Hz and a different taste in music 😀.
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@Markbakk
Asathor is tuned to Q 1.0, then high passed with a large cap, bringing hump down and extending response under 40Hz if room is considered.
Asathor is tuned to Q 1.0, then high passed with a large cap, bringing hump down and extending response under 40Hz if room is considered.
The asathor is the right kind. I would go for a big woofer and a compression driver in a horn. As you need high volume, wide dispertion and a solid constructions (accidents happen fast in a workshop with speaker) this kind of p.a. style speaker will be the best option. And put a grill on it so you don't damage the woofer while working and not paying attention.
I haven't seen any posts regarding what the OP defines as '...high spl...'. Pretty fundamental, surely?
Considering wearing ear protection and simultaneous working with power tools, I would not bother asking for level😉
@AllenB - I don't think I'm at that level (yet). This is my first push into higher-ish fidelity sound and I have too many other hobbies and responsibilities to let this one take over.
@MarceldvG - 3M Worktunes are bluetooth-enabled, volume-limiting over the ear hearing protection with 24 DB NRR. Great for music when you should be protecting your hearing, but they sound abysmal compared to non-safety type headphones.
@motokok - I took a peek at that video. It doesn't seem like a very space-efficient solution. It looked like you need to construct angled walls and then build a speaker cab into them. Am I misunderstanding?
@markbakk - thank you for this link. Im currently on page 20 of the thread. These are right on budget and look great. Wife approval factor for $16k speakers for $500 is clutch. Only issue I saw is that the Tymphany DFM-2535s arent available anymore. Ill keep looking at sourcing these or maybe viable alternatives. Sealed is a nice option and should play well with my mounting options.
@davor D - Im new. I don't know what that means.
@wesayso - I agree. I will spend a fair amount of time checking out different placement options before permanently mounting. Even if there's not an ideal spot, Ill know what sounds best for my workflow.
@waxx - its nice to have a second opinion backing these up. I have access to plenty of interesting grill materials. These would probably be made with some 12, 18, and 25 mm birch ply I have in stock.
@MrKlinky - I'm not really sure what number to put on it. 130 seems like an achievable goal?
@peterbrorsson - Machine and hearing protection use is sporadic. There are plenty of times I'm doing finishing work, planning, cleaning, or designing that the speakers are an ideal choice.
@MarceldvG - 3M Worktunes are bluetooth-enabled, volume-limiting over the ear hearing protection with 24 DB NRR. Great for music when you should be protecting your hearing, but they sound abysmal compared to non-safety type headphones.
@motokok - I took a peek at that video. It doesn't seem like a very space-efficient solution. It looked like you need to construct angled walls and then build a speaker cab into them. Am I misunderstanding?
@markbakk - thank you for this link. Im currently on page 20 of the thread. These are right on budget and look great. Wife approval factor for $16k speakers for $500 is clutch. Only issue I saw is that the Tymphany DFM-2535s arent available anymore. Ill keep looking at sourcing these or maybe viable alternatives. Sealed is a nice option and should play well with my mounting options.
@davor D - Im new. I don't know what that means.
@wesayso - I agree. I will spend a fair amount of time checking out different placement options before permanently mounting. Even if there's not an ideal spot, Ill know what sounds best for my workflow.
@waxx - its nice to have a second opinion backing these up. I have access to plenty of interesting grill materials. These would probably be made with some 12, 18, and 25 mm birch ply I have in stock.
@MrKlinky - I'm not really sure what number to put on it. 130 seems like an achievable goal?
@peterbrorsson - Machine and hearing protection use is sporadic. There are plenty of times I'm doing finishing work, planning, cleaning, or designing that the speakers are an ideal choice.
I didn't wear the earplugs they handed out for the millenials when I last saw My Bloody Valentine play, but 130db is the loudness of an F14 taking off from an aircraft carrier with afterburners on, and 100db is as loud as a jackhammer.
Chest punch is in the 80Hz to 120Hz range. You might consider a Karlson K15, which excels in this range and is very sensitive with pro drivers.
Check out this thread:
A Speaker that Kicks Butt in Large Spaces
You can make these as small as 12in woofer scale down the K15 plans by 12/15 factor.
Plans are here: http://home.planet.nl/~ulfman/images/Plans/original.gif
Many drivers work but something like an Kappa 12 works great. There’s a reason a lot of metal touring bands used these on stage in the 1970’s and 80’s.
Sometimes you can find these used for a bargain. They sound really good for the music you are talking about. Chest punch is probably their strong point.
Check out this thread:
A Speaker that Kicks Butt in Large Spaces
You can make these as small as 12in woofer scale down the K15 plans by 12/15 factor.
Plans are here: http://home.planet.nl/~ulfman/images/Plans/original.gif
Many drivers work but something like an Kappa 12 works great. There’s a reason a lot of metal touring bands used these on stage in the 1970’s and 80’s.
Sometimes you can find these used for a bargain. They sound really good for the music you are talking about. Chest punch is probably their strong point.
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I meant 130 SPL rating. My understanding is that you don’t ever really push it to the max so you allow some percent overhead for your normal range of listening. On top of that, I can be listening up to 25’ (~8 m) away.
I’ve actually been “fortunate” enough to run jack hammers and see F14s take off from 100 m away. I’m very appreciative of the concerns for safety on this forum, but I’ve made it 40 years being safe at concerts, while playing with my own band, on countless construction and industrial sites, and operating a 1 man woodshop. I suspect I’ll continue to operate safely with this new toy as well.
I’ve actually been “fortunate” enough to run jack hammers and see F14s take off from 100 m away. I’m very appreciative of the concerns for safety on this forum, but I’ve made it 40 years being safe at concerts, while playing with my own band, on countless construction and industrial sites, and operating a 1 man woodshop. I suspect I’ll continue to operate safely with this new toy as well.
89dB is center of dance floor loudness where you have to yell to the other person next to you in order to talk. Give circa 12dB headroom so 110dB to 112dB at listening distance is all you need. If you are 3m away add another few dB. Continuous music above this is really not pleasant nor good for your ears. When played from a horn speaker with low distortion it’s hard to judge loudness because we rely on distortion as indictator. So be careful.
Are there significant cost or equipment/design concerns moving from 112-120 up to 130?
I threw out a number that I had seen several Powered PA systems list as a goal. This is not a point I’m unwilling to compromise on, especially if it introduces pricing or technical issues.
Is the Karlson cabinet a full range speaker? I saw them while researching but got they impression they were a little gimmicky. Happy to have my perception changed about them.
I threw out a number that I had seen several Powered PA systems list as a goal. This is not a point I’m unwilling to compromise on, especially if it introduces pricing or technical issues.
Is the Karlson cabinet a full range speaker? I saw them while researching but got they impression they were a little gimmicky. Happy to have my perception changed about them.
Pair of JBL SR-X SR4735X 600 Watts, 3 way speakers - electronics -...
or
PAIR- Mackie SR1530 Active PA 3-Way Floor Standing Speakers -...
or
PA Loudspeakers - Acoustic, Mackie Amp & Cables! - musical...
Something like these would work...maybe talk down the price a bit.
or
PAIR- Mackie SR1530 Active PA 3-Way Floor Standing Speakers -...
or
PA Loudspeakers - Acoustic, Mackie Amp & Cables! - musical...
Something like these would work...maybe talk down the price a bit.
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Karlson cabinets in general do not go low but excel with kick-hit. With a good coax they work pretty much full range. Horns on top can work well too.
The original Karlson speaker (nowknown as "K15"was prototyped and tested in the.summer of 1951. It is a coupled cavity design with front chamber resonance centered around 110Hz. When tonally balanced its bass "transients" can be jaw dropping and cone excursion only a few millimeters peak to peak.
18" speakers with relatively low moving mass can work well in Karlson-tpe cabinets and John Karlson acturally marketed a K18"
They can be cleaner than some horn.
The Karlson-type that XRK971 linked has a nominal size of 20" wide by 2" tall by 15" deep andwas built byat least 4 companies, primarily for electric bass guitar. It must have a subwoofer whereas K15 (33"H x 22.5"W x 18" D) will be strong to around 50Hz.
I think Willem pushed his K15 to around 130dB peak. 4-K15 or 4-K18 (two per channel) be fun
It takes good treble output too for "hit".
For common direct radiator, I'd suggest two good pro 15" midbass per side-4-15"per side would hit.
Tell me - what are typical center kick-drum tuning frequencies for "metal"?
Willem's Wonderful Website - Karlson Page
(I developed my first costochrondritis being up close to a K18)
The original Karlson speaker (nowknown as "K15"was prototyped and tested in the.summer of 1951. It is a coupled cavity design with front chamber resonance centered around 110Hz. When tonally balanced its bass "transients" can be jaw dropping and cone excursion only a few millimeters peak to peak.
18" speakers with relatively low moving mass can work well in Karlson-tpe cabinets and John Karlson acturally marketed a K18"
They can be cleaner than some horn.
The Karlson-type that XRK971 linked has a nominal size of 20" wide by 2" tall by 15" deep andwas built byat least 4 companies, primarily for electric bass guitar. It must have a subwoofer whereas K15 (33"H x 22.5"W x 18" D) will be strong to around 50Hz.
I think Willem pushed his K15 to around 130dB peak. 4-K15 or 4-K18 (two per channel) be fun
It takes good treble output too for "hit".
For common direct radiator, I'd suggest two good pro 15" midbass per side-4-15"per side would hit.
Tell me - what are typical center kick-drum tuning frequencies for "metal"?
Willem's Wonderful Website - Karlson Page
(I developed my first costochrondritis being up close to a K18)
Thanks, Freddi. Didn’t realize I was giving plans to a smaller K. Although 100Hz is where it is at with the chest punch. I am surprised some company in China isn’t pumping these cabinets out by the thousands.
sometimes a "BVR" is picked to accent the hit region such as this 70 liter chamber 15" driver (typically JBL 2226) cabinet by RCA-Fan (Bill Woods)
High Efficiency Speaker Asylum
Paraflex (check The High Order Quarter-Wave Society at FB) could be something as would HROAR to check out. I think DIY member Pelanj is working with a little 12" driver Paraflex for his "metal" setup,
High Efficiency Speaker Asylum
Paraflex (check The High Order Quarter-Wave Society at FB) could be something as would HROAR to check out. I think DIY member Pelanj is working with a little 12" driver Paraflex for his "metal" setup,
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Tymphany is not the easiest supplier for us DIY folks. Here in Europe they seem available still. Exchanging those drivers probably requires crossover adjustments (maybe Rese66 could help you out).
? You have to ask developer of Asathor!
Me, I don't care, as long as I get a room response that measure and sounds good. I have made boxes with Q=1 and then swapped caps until I'm satisfied...
Henry Kloss-designed stuff is just very smooth and forgiving and typically sealed-box, and Cambridge Soundworks made solid stuff, so if you found something appealing to you on CL then you could grab it today...
Actually, the series cap lowers the Q to about 0,7. And I fully agree with not caring, it is a bit irrelevant. That is why I didn't bring it up (some others did 😉 ).