Things which makes sense to build:
Multi Sub systems!
Bigger high End Speakers - but you need to KNOW your stuff, that's not a beginners task.
High SPL speakers (e.g. homecineam) with PA components. Or at least I don't know some with really good quality for a good price.
But what you can buy for very little money are good, active 2way speakers.
I actually had once a problem with one of the Neumann KH120 and they repaired for free outside of the waranty time. They will repair their stuff for a long time.
Multi Sub systems!
Bigger high End Speakers - but you need to KNOW your stuff, that's not a beginners task.
High SPL speakers (e.g. homecineam) with PA components. Or at least I don't know some with really good quality for a good price.
But what you can buy for very little money are good, active 2way speakers.
Therefore you buy some serious components. Neumann, Genelec, ... these last.
I actually had once a problem with one of the Neumann KH120 and they repaired for free outside of the waranty time. They will repair their stuff for a long time.
This is why I only sell high end monitors. You cannot compete with the affordable segment and it's not worth even trying. If you can't commit to a serious state of the attempt, it's smarter to buy something from a reliable brand. Third vote for Kali.
It is definitely important to approach your first speaker design project as more of a learning experience rather than a way to get a great speaker for low cost.
If @theneo wants to build a high quality speaker on the first attempt, he would be better served by building a kit.
Buying a used studio monitor is a smart choice also...
If @theneo wants to build a high quality speaker on the first attempt, he would be better served by building a kit.
Buying a used studio monitor is a smart choice also...
Thank you every one for your kind feedback and knowledgeable inputs. In my main studio in Berlin I have 3 sets of monitors - Genelec 8361 as mains, Adam A7x for synth rack and Presonus Sceptre S8 for DJing. Have some acoustic treatment and room correction via GLM. I am at my parent's house in a different country where I don't have monitors and was thinking of building a pair of monitors w/ at least 8" woofers.
Be it Kali or Neumann, it's very expensive here cause of shitty import duties compared to EU. So thought - building a pair wouldn't hurt. I'm absolutely open to using a waveguide, in fact was thinking of using a bigger waveguide like the amphion speakers. They use seas drivers.
I was thinking as a starting point buying the VOLT VM 753 (dome midrange) off a fellow member here as a starting point and keeping an eye on the market place for some woofers / tweeters. The plan was to build something that can be used to mix and produce techno so it has to have a good low end extension and fairly linear response.
I'd also need to get a mic and correct the response via sonarworks or other DSP. One thing that I faced trouble in even expensive monitors like Genelec 8361 is sharp highs and difficult to hear the kick transients. The low end is very boomy. I have tried Neumann KH 420, KH 310 (also Klein+Hummel 0410) - they all had bumps in the midrange. Or the driver has some harmonic distortion which makes the midrange forward. Certain channels in my tracks with midrange content almost disappeared when I tried in other speakers because I mixed those channels low.
Regarding Kali: https://www.audiosciencereview.com/.../kali-audio-in-8-studio-monitor-review.10897/, from the review, it looks like it has the same midrange forward sound signature. So in general, my experience with studio monitors have been a hit or miss. I heard ATC 45, ATC 150 and though it has a mid forward sound - the mid dome somehow handles it better. The mixes translate better as well. ATCs are easier to listen to, doesn't have sharp high end and easier to focus on the low end.
It's also an attempt to experiment and build a monitor which I can work with. Coaxial monitors have a bugger sweet spot so was also looking at some of the fulcrum acoustic designs. Big companies somehow cheap out on the amp / cabinet size leading to headoom limitations and hitting the limiter often if I increase the volume to understand the low end. In the end my mastering engineer also uses VOLT drivers in his PMC speakers so thought having the same volt midrange would help in at least the midrange translation from mixing to mastering.
I'd like to start somewhere and upgrade the amps to Hypex at a later stage.
Be it Kali or Neumann, it's very expensive here cause of shitty import duties compared to EU. So thought - building a pair wouldn't hurt. I'm absolutely open to using a waveguide, in fact was thinking of using a bigger waveguide like the amphion speakers. They use seas drivers.
I was thinking as a starting point buying the VOLT VM 753 (dome midrange) off a fellow member here as a starting point and keeping an eye on the market place for some woofers / tweeters. The plan was to build something that can be used to mix and produce techno so it has to have a good low end extension and fairly linear response.
I'd also need to get a mic and correct the response via sonarworks or other DSP. One thing that I faced trouble in even expensive monitors like Genelec 8361 is sharp highs and difficult to hear the kick transients. The low end is very boomy. I have tried Neumann KH 420, KH 310 (also Klein+Hummel 0410) - they all had bumps in the midrange. Or the driver has some harmonic distortion which makes the midrange forward. Certain channels in my tracks with midrange content almost disappeared when I tried in other speakers because I mixed those channels low.
Regarding Kali: https://www.audiosciencereview.com/.../kali-audio-in-8-studio-monitor-review.10897/, from the review, it looks like it has the same midrange forward sound signature. So in general, my experience with studio monitors have been a hit or miss. I heard ATC 45, ATC 150 and though it has a mid forward sound - the mid dome somehow handles it better. The mixes translate better as well. ATCs are easier to listen to, doesn't have sharp high end and easier to focus on the low end.
It's also an attempt to experiment and build a monitor which I can work with. Coaxial monitors have a bugger sweet spot so was also looking at some of the fulcrum acoustic designs. Big companies somehow cheap out on the amp / cabinet size leading to headoom limitations and hitting the limiter often if I increase the volume to understand the low end. In the end my mastering engineer also uses VOLT drivers in his PMC speakers so thought having the same volt midrange would help in at least the midrange translation from mixing to mastering.
I'd like to start somewhere and upgrade the amps to Hypex at a later stage.
I think the LCCAM 10.3 is a great monitor for someone who wants near-studio-monitor quality for a bargain price. However, in my opinion, the LCCAM 10.3 is not on the same level as the Neumann KH420 or a Genelec 8361. Those speakers use better drivers, better electronics, and have larger cabinets. If you want to equal or exceed the performance of those monitor speakers, you will have to spend more than the LCCAM 10.3, not less.
@IamJF 's idea of getting a good 2-way speaker, and then building a pair (or more) of subs is a good way to go... Building a high quality sub is considerably easier than a 3-way speaker. Stereo subs located near the monitors can provide excellent performance. The crossover from sub to monitor should be DSP-based high pass and low pass, i.e. it is important that the monitor is not run "full range".
j.
@IamJF 's idea of getting a good 2-way speaker, and then building a pair (or more) of subs is a good way to go... Building a high quality sub is considerably easier than a 3-way speaker. Stereo subs located near the monitors can provide excellent performance. The crossover from sub to monitor should be DSP-based high pass and low pass, i.e. it is important that the monitor is not run "full range".
j.
You missed the red text.
EDIT: turns out this sample was physically broken (bad woofer). I purchased one myself and it measured far better. So please ignore this post
https://www.erinsaudiocorner.com/loudspeakers/kali_in-8v2/
For the level you want to work the Kali is probably not the right tool - but I still strongly suggest KH120ii + MA1 and build 1-2 nice subs later.
I also find the highs of Genelec to much and a little spiky (esp the older models, 8361 is better). Neumann is better for me in that regard but of course its not what Beryllium tweeters can do. But these are not cheap ...
KH420 and KH310 don't distort in the midrange and they are linear - so it seems you prefer a little scooped sound. Many HiFi and PA systems have scooped midrange, it's a matter of what you are used to. With the MA1 software you can do exactly that - reduce the midrange 2dB and you should be fine.
I always compare my speaker constructions with KEF LS50 cause I'm also a big fan of coaxials and speakers like KH120ii are close to that experience. Stereo panorama is extremely good with these (KH150 also as people say, didn't hear them), maybe the best I experienced in my rooms.
You should give them a listen if it's possible in any circumstances in your country. Low frequencies are also tight and deeper as with KH120, over all a more relaxed and balanced speaker.
When doing a build and you can source the Volt 3" - it aint be cheap 🤓 The best tweeter for a waveguide ist Bliesma T25B - and it's also one of the best sounding ones. You could add a SB34NRXL75-8 in closed volume if you have enough space for a bigger speaker. Really good smaller woofers are also not cheap but would give a smaller box. Satori or ScanSpeak would be cheaper as Purify and will still perform well in a 3way. Or PHL if you can source them and plan to add subwoofers later.
Getting cheaper as a small Hypex plate amp with 6 channels of DSP and 6 useful amps is not easy ... maybe try to source a FA123 used. And upgrade if you really need more SPL?
These components can give a GREAT speaker for your use but it will be expensive. (>€2500,-) And a lot of work. And an uncertain outcome if you aren't experienced in speaker building. But you will learn a lot and will have a great speaker if done right.
I also find the highs of Genelec to much and a little spiky (esp the older models, 8361 is better). Neumann is better for me in that regard but of course its not what Beryllium tweeters can do. But these are not cheap ...
KH420 and KH310 don't distort in the midrange and they are linear - so it seems you prefer a little scooped sound. Many HiFi and PA systems have scooped midrange, it's a matter of what you are used to. With the MA1 software you can do exactly that - reduce the midrange 2dB and you should be fine.
I always compare my speaker constructions with KEF LS50 cause I'm also a big fan of coaxials and speakers like KH120ii are close to that experience. Stereo panorama is extremely good with these (KH150 also as people say, didn't hear them), maybe the best I experienced in my rooms.
You should give them a listen if it's possible in any circumstances in your country. Low frequencies are also tight and deeper as with KH120, over all a more relaxed and balanced speaker.
When doing a build and you can source the Volt 3" - it aint be cheap 🤓 The best tweeter for a waveguide ist Bliesma T25B - and it's also one of the best sounding ones. You could add a SB34NRXL75-8 in closed volume if you have enough space for a bigger speaker. Really good smaller woofers are also not cheap but would give a smaller box. Satori or ScanSpeak would be cheaper as Purify and will still perform well in a 3way. Or PHL if you can source them and plan to add subwoofers later.
Getting cheaper as a small Hypex plate amp with 6 channels of DSP and 6 useful amps is not easy ... maybe try to source a FA123 used. And upgrade if you really need more SPL?
These components can give a GREAT speaker for your use but it will be expensive. (>€2500,-) And a lot of work. And an uncertain outcome if you aren't experienced in speaker building. But you will learn a lot and will have a great speaker if done right.
You seem to be a bit all over the place with regards to budget. You haven't mentioned a figure, but you gave as reference LCCAM. Now you're talking VOLT VM753, which is not a cheap driver. If you make that your starting point, you should just give up on the "cheap" criterion.
Yes. One volt midrange is more $ then the entire driver budget for all 6 drivers in a pair of LCCAM speakers.
The Kali monitors referenced to above are bluntly put pieces of junk. They perform in proportion to their cost. Plasticy, cheap materials used throughout and noisy electronics. I dont know why people buy these, other than to be cheap. The little 5" Yamahas are better in terms of timbre, FR and build quality.
If you want used, look for a pair of the older gen Mackie HR624s. They have decent drivers (Seas, Vifa) and sound accurate enough to reference to mixing on them.
The Neumann 120s sound decent but aren't well made. I had one of mine repaired twice for the same issue. Not very reliable.
This new rash of cheap powered monitors we're seeing is just a sign that people want cheap, disposable junk and don't really care so much about the most important tool needed for doing a decent mix, aside from microphones. There are plenty of affordable monitors out there which are built very well and can be purchased for reasonable amounts of money. I like the Dynaudio stuff (BM5, BM15) alot. They do a great job at exposing bad or good in a mix and aren't fatiguing to use for long periods of time.
I know alot of people don't agree with me on this stuff, but I've dealt with (repaired, set up) enough cheap gear to know whats decent and what isn't. Its better to spend money once than to spend it twice and waste it.
If you want used, look for a pair of the older gen Mackie HR624s. They have decent drivers (Seas, Vifa) and sound accurate enough to reference to mixing on them.
The Neumann 120s sound decent but aren't well made. I had one of mine repaired twice for the same issue. Not very reliable.
This new rash of cheap powered monitors we're seeing is just a sign that people want cheap, disposable junk and don't really care so much about the most important tool needed for doing a decent mix, aside from microphones. There are plenty of affordable monitors out there which are built very well and can be purchased for reasonable amounts of money. I like the Dynaudio stuff (BM5, BM15) alot. They do a great job at exposing bad or good in a mix and aren't fatiguing to use for long periods of time.
I know alot of people don't agree with me on this stuff, but I've dealt with (repaired, set up) enough cheap gear to know whats decent and what isn't. Its better to spend money once than to spend it twice and waste it.
I built something like that H1212/Zaph/RS combo years ago. On a flat baffle you can’t get directivity optimal and some diffraction is inevitable but having said that, it turned out to be a pretty good result.
The new Kalis have 15dB less noise of the electronics ... must have been pretty bad before 🤓
I also don't consider them as tools and not fitting here - but on a tight budget they should be better as others?
I do genuinely hope this post is not entertained much. You seem to offer consistently bad advice when it comes to monitoring actually.
@wafflesomd That’s a pretty generalized, blunt and direct accusation which isn't backed with any sound reasoning. At least give some explanation if you're going to just come out and diss me like that. Thats the least you could do and it shoes your maturity.
My standards are clearly higher than yours. I also don't put up with shotty build quality when it comes to such an important tool of the trade. If you're just dabbling and want a cheap home studio, there may be merit to cheap plastic buzz boxes as monitors. I've been doing what I do for 4 decades and have worked in every aspect of sound. I've worked with big names and have catered to their high standards. You don't get there by recommending crap equipment and advice. I can work with a budget, but you don't ever buy cheap, unreliable monitors. The Kalis were clearly bad out of the box in this previous review. That says alot. My Neumann 120s sounded decent, but one of the failed twice for the same reason.
Just be aware, that you accusing me of giving bad advice is likely the most uneducated and downright rudest thing anyone can say to someone who has spent most of their life working as a successful sound engineer. I repair this stuff too and understand how it works from an electronics design aspect. I spend alot of my time trying to help people on here and share my experiences with various drivers. I'm not an amateur and this isn't just a hobby for me.
Just keep on recommending cheap plastic buzz box monitors and see how far that gets you in trying to produce a decent result. Your ears are likely used to the sound. Thats ok if its what you like, but don't go slamming me for not agreeing with you. The OP wanted to build a set of monitors and I gave him an option. You discouraged him from doing so and told him to buy some cheap plastic junk. I at least recommended an alternative solution based on your advice which was accepted as respectable in my circle of work. Who's really giving the poor advice here?
My standards are clearly higher than yours. I also don't put up with shotty build quality when it comes to such an important tool of the trade. If you're just dabbling and want a cheap home studio, there may be merit to cheap plastic buzz boxes as monitors. I've been doing what I do for 4 decades and have worked in every aspect of sound. I've worked with big names and have catered to their high standards. You don't get there by recommending crap equipment and advice. I can work with a budget, but you don't ever buy cheap, unreliable monitors. The Kalis were clearly bad out of the box in this previous review. That says alot. My Neumann 120s sounded decent, but one of the failed twice for the same reason.
Just be aware, that you accusing me of giving bad advice is likely the most uneducated and downright rudest thing anyone can say to someone who has spent most of their life working as a successful sound engineer. I repair this stuff too and understand how it works from an electronics design aspect. I spend alot of my time trying to help people on here and share my experiences with various drivers. I'm not an amateur and this isn't just a hobby for me.
Just keep on recommending cheap plastic buzz box monitors and see how far that gets you in trying to produce a decent result. Your ears are likely used to the sound. Thats ok if its what you like, but don't go slamming me for not agreeing with you. The OP wanted to build a set of monitors and I gave him an option. You discouraged him from doing so and told him to buy some cheap plastic junk. I at least recommended an alternative solution based on your advice which was accepted as respectable in my circle of work. Who's really giving the poor advice here?
This thread was supposed to be about diy budget 3 way monitors. It turned into a sales pitch.
I just went to look at that review (despite my reservations of the source) and looked at the measurements. For $800 / pair of these monitors, rhe FR is pretty ragged and has some noticeable peaks in it which will be clearly audible in a bad way.
To receive a bad woofer without it being the result of shipping damage (would be rather apparent) is a sign of little to no quality control. That's not acceptable for the price these things cost. I also wouldn't regard them as a budget solution compared to the cost of other monitors built with similar materials and components. The Presonus Eris Studio 8s also cost $300 less than the Kalis if you want to be completely budget minded. I've heard both of them and the Presonus are the least offensive of the two. Both can be EQed to suit the environment they'll be used in, but the Presonus will sound less fatiguing and yield better results used as a monitoring tool. This is all based on the notion the OP wants to go this route to begin with and not build his own.
If he wants to do a diy passive 3 way on a budget, a single 8" 3 way with the Silver Flute 8", Hivi mid dome and SB compact neo soft dome are the most bang per buck for low distortion drivers capable of very good resolution audio. Yes, there's a learning curve evolved to building them, but thats nothing a DATS setup with a laptop won't take care of. You'd want to design the monitors for the exact environment they're in anyways, so that's another reason why it would be a good project. He may also just learn something about the whole subject anyways. That’s worth more than just buying some plastic junk that may be up to his standards. If he couldn't hear the difference to start with, then I'd absolutely recommend store bought monitors, but not the junk pitched by the internet... certainly not at a "budget" of closer to 1k. For that money you can buy Dynaudios which are a much better product.
Sorry, but I get pretty upset when people claim to be knowledgeable about something like this,.especially referencing their knowledge to various internet reviews. There's more to it than just someone doing a bunch of measurements, wowing an audience with some tech and claiming the product is better than it is in the flesh, only based on their touted science.
Build quality and other details also matter. The product quoted isn't as good as it is praised to be, despite the loud voice on the internet claiming otherwise. I've been here before and almost gave up on this site with some of the backlash I receive for trying to do what's right based on my own knowledge and honest opinion.
You might find this interesting: MUM monitors and Present Day Productions
Take some of it with a pinch of salt - they have been overwhelmed and are not doing specials (and I suspect not installing the Hypex amps externally). And they seem to be real that the extra hole on the front is just to reposition the tweeter, not to put a port.
The Present Day Productions YouTube has a number of vids over a period of time chronicling the development. Its really quite DIY although I think they are effectively semi-professional now. Personally I suspect that the high-price drivers are not necessarily the best way to spend money - particularly the Be ones - but if splashing the cash buys safety and comfort then OK. Much as I loved the ATC midranges I owned 35 years ago, I wonder if actually the 4" Purifi alu midrange woud be better, and allow a much wider bandwidth from 300 to 3k and maybe a good 19mm tweeter, even an OW-1.
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You are too sensitive. Protect yourself by not paying all too much attention to unimportant things and
get to know what future is holding for you. In that sense you are in the dark and none of this nonsense
is helping you.
How about a pair of these coaxial with any decent woofer? Since you like coaxial.
https://www.diyaudio.com/community/threads/copy-cat-drivers.409072/
https://www.diyaudio.com/community/threads/copy-cat-drivers.409072/
Thanks for your concern but my purpose here is caring about people being misguided by others who just beat a drum of internet hype, spreading it like a disease.
Cheap, plastic laden, inferior electronics end up in landfills soon after the companies make their profits. If more people cared about this, it wouldn't be as much of an issue and we'd support the companies who make decent products, helping sustain their business, not losing it to the people who sell poorly made junk.
I've tried alot of this budget gear that a few select people constantly endorse. These people claim to know what they're talking about, but really don't. This shotty stuff puts the people out of business, specifically the ones who's designs get ripped off by companies making cheaper copies. Its not uncommon that you open a box finding broken parts right away. The people who are involved building this stuff don't care about what they're doing and the people recommending it think its good enough. It forces the good brands to stoop down to the level of making cheaper lines.
A good example is what Behringer did to Mackie with their VLZ mixers, copying them down to the color scheme of knobs and layout. Mackie tried suing and won, but all Behringer did then was change the color of the knobs and continued on with their dirty work. People who know behringer stuff will all say the same thing, that their stuff fails quickly and doesn't hold up to profesional use. Channels start dropping out and it becomes unreliable to use, not to mention its almost impossible to repair. Most of the time its not worth it due to the purchase price being so low and the parts aren't available. If it does work, the pots mistrack severely and become noisy. Decent gear doesn't do that. Kali stuff is not much different to this.
Friends don't let other friends buy lousy audio gear. I wish more people stood up fot whats right. The OP wanted to build his own monitors, but others advised buying budget junk.