Hi,
OK, first mention of that mod "on this forum" did come from me, no doubt Bruno likely thought of it first, ... it's obvious enough after all, so I"ll say that he did, and I can't prove otherwise.
It's really not about who thought of it first. Rather it's about it being so obvious a tweak that people knew about it and wanted it, basically asked for it, but Hypex decided to withhold it from us "as long as they possibly could" in order to cater to their bigger OEM customers, allowing them to very litterally throw an amp together and have it be sonically superior than a DIY equivalent, just so they can say "you just can't go buy an amp from Hypex and have it sound like one of these".
I feel if these OEM builders need an edge, let it be the professional touch which they currently lack, as seen by CIA's abhorrent build quality. It seems unethical to me to compromise the quality of our modules in order to secure bigger business.
Best Regards,
Chris
OK, first mention of that mod "on this forum" did come from me, no doubt Bruno likely thought of it first, ... it's obvious enough after all, so I"ll say that he did, and I can't prove otherwise.
It's really not about who thought of it first. Rather it's about it being so obvious a tweak that people knew about it and wanted it, basically asked for it, but Hypex decided to withhold it from us "as long as they possibly could" in order to cater to their bigger OEM customers, allowing them to very litterally throw an amp together and have it be sonically superior than a DIY equivalent, just so they can say "you just can't go buy an amp from Hypex and have it sound like one of these".
I feel if these OEM builders need an edge, let it be the professional touch which they currently lack, as seen by CIA's abhorrent build quality. It seems unethical to me to compromise the quality of our modules in order to secure bigger business.
Best Regards,
Chris
serengetiplains said:
Do you really think they'd walk to a lesser product because a DIY one is equivalent in performance? Personally I can't see the sense in that. The business should be secured already because they offer the best and there's really no alternative if the best is what they want to offer in their product.
I doubt they would, but would the commercial product lose sufficient public appeal---because no better than a slap-together DIY project---that sales of the commercial product, and hence of the modules, would decline as a result?
If build quality is no better than slapping a DIY one together maybe, but then again as someone else pointed out it's a different market, DIYers won't be buying them, only people who just want to plug it in.
Agreed, yes, but there might be a game of optics at play: the plug and play consumer might be less inclined to purchase gear the mystique of which has been diminished by knowledge that the manufacturer (CIA, for instance) is giving no added value ... plug and play selling to plug and play.
Good point. So would you rather cure that problem by having your modules compromised, or perhaps they should put a little effort into doing it right and giving it that professional touch?
If I elaborate on that point further I'm only going to end up stepping all over CIA's toes alot more so I must refrain.
Perhaps they weren't directly involved in keeping that mod from us. Given their marketing and such along with certain posts from Jan-Peter I jumped to the conclusion they had been directly involved in keeping it from us.
As far as their build quality if you want a look under the hood too you can see it at their website.
If I elaborate on that point further I'm only going to end up stepping all over CIA's toes alot more so I must refrain.
Perhaps they weren't directly involved in keeping that mod from us. Given their marketing and such along with certain posts from Jan-Peter I jumped to the conclusion they had been directly involved in keeping it from us.
As far as their build quality if you want a look under the hood too you can see it at their website.
The irony of all this is.......
The guys at CIA may build products that compete against products that I might build, so in one sense, I ought to encourage them to continue.
But this is a DIY forum. I seriously doubt that anyone here is a serious candidate to buy one of these finished products. Especially since Hypex makes the modules available to the DIY community.
Bashing done by prospective buyers is something that happens all the time, but it is done in an appropriate arena. Anyone who thinks that these products are.........ah........ah........you won't let me use that word here.........needs to take this to Audio Asylum or Audiogon, where it fits in with the context of the forum.
I don't know CIA or their products, nor do I care. I am sure they don't need me sticking up for them, which I am really not. Maybe they deserve derision, maybe they don't. The point is it does not belong here.
No........it isn't bad enough that CIA gets ripped, but now we see Hypex dragged in for no good reason.
As a potential (or actual) OEM customer, I sure hope that they care more about me than the DIY crowd. If that means small tricks that you guys don't get, well I'm all for it. They are going make a bulk of their sales to OEMs, and if every amp designer wannabe has access to the same thing that I have, well it makes it harder on the manufacturer to sell product. Because as this thread demonstrates, everyone is a critic. And they just have to air it.
Anyone who still wonders why ICEpower shuns the DIY market needs just take some time to read this forum. If they still don't understand, well......I guess they never will.
Some of you guys need to spend more time soldering and less time kvetching. And just remember, what goes around comes around. I know that some of you guys have visions of grandeur as amp builders. A handful of us are just sitting back, chomping at the bit to give you the same treatment that you have given others. Don't cry for the mods to bail your sorry hineys out when the time comes.
Jocko
The guys at CIA may build products that compete against products that I might build, so in one sense, I ought to encourage them to continue.
But this is a DIY forum. I seriously doubt that anyone here is a serious candidate to buy one of these finished products. Especially since Hypex makes the modules available to the DIY community.
Bashing done by prospective buyers is something that happens all the time, but it is done in an appropriate arena. Anyone who thinks that these products are.........ah........ah........you won't let me use that word here.........needs to take this to Audio Asylum or Audiogon, where it fits in with the context of the forum.
I don't know CIA or their products, nor do I care. I am sure they don't need me sticking up for them, which I am really not. Maybe they deserve derision, maybe they don't. The point is it does not belong here.
No........it isn't bad enough that CIA gets ripped, but now we see Hypex dragged in for no good reason.
As a potential (or actual) OEM customer, I sure hope that they care more about me than the DIY crowd. If that means small tricks that you guys don't get, well I'm all for it. They are going make a bulk of their sales to OEMs, and if every amp designer wannabe has access to the same thing that I have, well it makes it harder on the manufacturer to sell product. Because as this thread demonstrates, everyone is a critic. And they just have to air it.
Anyone who still wonders why ICEpower shuns the DIY market needs just take some time to read this forum. If they still don't understand, well......I guess they never will.
Some of you guys need to spend more time soldering and less time kvetching. And just remember, what goes around comes around. I know that some of you guys have visions of grandeur as amp builders. A handful of us are just sitting back, chomping at the bit to give you the same treatment that you have given others. Don't cry for the mods to bail your sorry hineys out when the time comes.
Jocko
i was searching for something else, and came across this thread.
having worked for a couple different startup companies, as well as taking a couple stabs at making "fully finished" DIY products, i must emphatically agree with Jocko and the others. i can guarantee you CIA is not laughing all the way to the bank on these things. if anything, Dusty Vawter knows a thing or two about *under*-pricing yourself out of a market. Audio Alchemy, where he originally worked, pretty much did this, and they went under.
specialty markets are inefficient by nature. many audio companies are very lucky if they manage to break even. please stop comparing retail pricing to DIY cost - anyone who knows absolutely anything about finance and economics will see how inane it is. how long did you spend buliding your last project? including all the time spent here researching, looking for parts, listening, testing, etc.? 20 hours? 50 hours? what is your time is worth to you? $20/hr? $50/hr?
like Jocko says, if you think you can do it better, go try it yourself. just don't come asking us for a handout when your "company" goes under.
having worked for a couple different startup companies, as well as taking a couple stabs at making "fully finished" DIY products, i must emphatically agree with Jocko and the others. i can guarantee you CIA is not laughing all the way to the bank on these things. if anything, Dusty Vawter knows a thing or two about *under*-pricing yourself out of a market. Audio Alchemy, where he originally worked, pretty much did this, and they went under.
specialty markets are inefficient by nature. many audio companies are very lucky if they manage to break even. please stop comparing retail pricing to DIY cost - anyone who knows absolutely anything about finance and economics will see how inane it is. how long did you spend buliding your last project? including all the time spent here researching, looking for parts, listening, testing, etc.? 20 hours? 50 hours? what is your time is worth to you? $20/hr? $50/hr?
like Jocko says, if you think you can do it better, go try it yourself. just don't come asking us for a handout when your "company" goes under.
See, ol' buddy............
You thought that I was giving you a hard time...........[joke]
These guys deserve it. I'm just pullin' yer leg.
See, we do agree on things. Sometimes.
Jocko
You thought that I was giving you a hard time...........[joke]
These guys deserve it. I'm just pullin' yer leg.
See, we do agree on things. Sometimes.
Jocko
Re: See, ol' buddy............
put another way... we should be THANKFUL that there is a healthy OEM market for Hypex, and we should encourage them to pursue it to its fullest, because it's that market that makes it possible for them to sell to us DIYers at a very low cost. you think the modules would cost what they do if we were the only ones buying them?
DIY is a HOBBY, not an industry. economically speaking, it's nothing. any of you who think DIY is going to revolutionize the audio business the way open source software did for the computer industry should get a grip.
the funny thing is, a lot of you guys who are complaining think the product is great and use it yourselves. talk about biting the hand that feeds you.
😛 sometimes i fall into the trap of taking this internet thing way too seriously. i'm just glad this place hasn't broken down into an audio asylum. yet.
no matter how annoying you get Jocko, i'll always have to grant that you're a pretty sharp guy. that's more than i can say for the majority of fools on internet boards (not referring specifically to this one, just in general).
ok, that's all the ego candy i'm giving you for the rest of the month.
Jocko Homo said:
put another way... we should be THANKFUL that there is a healthy OEM market for Hypex, and we should encourage them to pursue it to its fullest, because it's that market that makes it possible for them to sell to us DIYers at a very low cost. you think the modules would cost what they do if we were the only ones buying them?
DIY is a HOBBY, not an industry. economically speaking, it's nothing. any of you who think DIY is going to revolutionize the audio business the way open source software did for the computer industry should get a grip.
the funny thing is, a lot of you guys who are complaining think the product is great and use it yourselves. talk about biting the hand that feeds you.
😛 sometimes i fall into the trap of taking this internet thing way too seriously. i'm just glad this place hasn't broken down into an audio asylum. yet.
no matter how annoying you get Jocko, i'll always have to grant that you're a pretty sharp guy. that's more than i can say for the majority of fools on internet boards (not referring specifically to this one, just in general).
ok, that's all the ego candy i'm giving you for the rest of the month.
Jocko, of course you're all for that extra advantage, it lets you build your underpriced $500 scrap amplifiers and still have an edge.
Some of us would rather see everyone get that same quality for their money, it's worth just as much as yours. As the OEM builder you keep alluding to be you should be more concerned with giving your customers a quality built product than the cheapest piece of scrap you can still a buck off.
Some of us would rather see everyone get that same quality for their money, it's worth just as much as yours. As the OEM builder you keep alluding to be you should be more concerned with giving your customers a quality built product than the cheapest piece of scrap you can still a buck off.
Build something commercial or shut your pie hole.
Pull a stunt like this over you-know-where, and you and I are going tangle. We all know who is going to win. Get this childish attitude out of your system, and leave it here.
Jocko.....acting like a moderator on the wrong forum.......over to you, Al.
Pull a stunt like this over you-know-where, and you and I are going tangle. We all know who is going to win. Get this childish attitude out of your system, and leave it here.
Jocko.....acting like a moderator on the wrong forum.......over to you, Al.
You must be talking about your little sanctuary forum where you ran to when you couldn't have your way here? lol. You can delete my account there, hell I even forget the URL.
You should have shut your pie hole and not continued this.
You should have shut your pie hole and not continued this.
seeing as the discussion has completely diverged from the topic of the thread to personal differences, could you guys take this offline please?
Hate to disappoint you, but.......
I was drafted. Unlike the Army, where I volunteered.
But you started it.......we aim on finishin' it. Maybe you are the one who needs to give it a rest.
I'll let the members here decide.
Jocko
I was drafted. Unlike the Army, where I volunteered.
But you started it.......we aim on finishin' it. Maybe you are the one who needs to give it a rest.
I'll let the members here decide.
Jocko
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