If they are bit perfect then excluding the factors which can and should be catered for by engineering, jitter and possible noise, then by definition they have to sound the SAME.
The same way data from a hard drive or a solid state drive will sound the same if the bit pattern is identical...
The same way data from a hard drive or a solid state drive will sound the same if the bit pattern is identical...
The problem is that I started a thread a long time ago discussing how I have ripped the same identical CD using safemode, and normal mode on Windows XP. confirmed the checksums matched, and yet the two different rips sound different. I have had someone swap between tracks without me knowing and I was able to identify the different rips.
There is also a DIY audio member sandyK who also has done reaserch in this field and produced different sounding rips depending upon the power supply used to power the drive.
I know this flies in the face of all presently known digital audio theory. I don't say this to draw attention to myself or be a troll or to annoy people. I'm just reporting of my own personal experience, and the experience of a few people I know in Melbourne, and sandyK who is in Sydney.
Some of sandyK's files have been sent overseas to famous audio reviewers and also to a famous record engineer and those two people could hear the differences between different bit perfect rips.
I'm not trying to convince you or anyone else. Trying to convince you guys would be like pushing **** up a hill.
You have your point of view and I have mine.
I say this nicely, I don't care if you are ever convinced, that is not my intention because I'm just not concerned about whether you believe me or not.
But please be aware that I am well aware of digital theory, and I found that difference in sound is possible with bit perfect rips. I am unable to explain why. Just reporting what I and others observed.
Most computer-based sources I've tested were not bit perfect. The main culprits were rounding errors from software mixing and volume control, or resampling to a different rate, or glitches from buffer overruns. I've never had problems with old fashioned sources like CD and DAT.
A source that isn't bit perfect can still sound good. But a source that is bit perfect can't sound bad.
Have you used a file compare utility to compare the files?
Would you be willing to share those files with us?
Uh oh, not the sandyk stuff again...
The "famous record engineer" happens to be a believer in different lossless file formats sounding different etc., and he doesn't believe in double blind testing. Not the best independent verification.
Then I guess the logical next step is independent verification?
The dumbing down thing wasn't meant for you, I tried to explain it so that everyone could understand it. 😀
Most importantly:
The quality of a digital system is ONLY dependant on the quality of the converters.
The quality of the converters is only as good as the quality of the sampling clock they are running off. 🙂
adhering to the topic, I'm trying to build a reader Cd using their units for computers;
I collected all the drivers from the old computer
and controlled such work.
On Ebay I bought this card DAC with ESS9018
since the output level of the player is higher SPDIF I have suggested this interface SPDF
I built temporarily
always on Ebay I bought also the controller for the CD-DVD
and built a power supply that provides all the voltages needed
Finally, all connected
listening to the sound is not bad, but there is a problem:
you hear an annoying interruption intermittent sound every 10 seconds for a period of 1/2 second
this defect occurs even flipping all readers (of various brands) in my possession;
thinking of a problem with the power supply made by me, I used the voltages supplied from that of a computer but without success.
The card with the DAC, when connected to my Onkyo 706 and a Blueray BDP-500 Panasonic, operating normally;
all readers of CD-DVD connected entrance SPDF a sound card SB ct4670
![URL]](/community/proxy.php?image=http%3A%2F%2F%5BURL%5Dhttp%3A%2F%2Fi62.tinypic.com%2F2qdcqia.jpg%5B%2FURL%5D&hash=f132583157692e27a1b290b0a73a5ec0)
work without any problem
using the only player with the play button (no interface with the display)
the defect occurs
thinking that the cause may be the outgoing interface with the transformer, I replaced it with something more simple
![URL]](/community/proxy.php?image=http%3A%2F%2F%5BURL%5Dhttp%3A%2F%2Fi62.tinypic.com%2Fnmnj35.jpg%5B%2FURL%5D&hash=21035f0478889822fec3a429b475d6e0)
not served
I noticed that many cards DAC (also with other chips) input have a WM8804 and looking around
http://www.wolfsonmicro.com/documents/uploads/data_sheets/en/WM8804.pdf
is used as a format converter (SPDIF> I2S and vice versa),
all connected
![URL]](/community/proxy.php?image=http%3A%2F%2F%5BURL%5Dhttp%3A%2F%2Fi62.tinypic.com%2F2cr58p5.jpg%5B%2FURL%5D&hash=34397441ca1a7bd6b737aedc84370564)
same problem
after many trials do not know how to go ahead, I can not understand the cause; surprising is the fact that after a while
that the hard work (10/15 min) the problem disappears, reappears just jump the track or go fast forward
Does anyone have suggestions on the cause ??
Sorry for the rough translation
I collected all the drivers from the old computer
An externally hosted image should be here but it was not working when we last tested it.
and controlled such work.
On Ebay I bought this card DAC with ESS9018
An externally hosted image should be here but it was not working when we last tested it.
since the output level of the player is higher SPDIF I have suggested this interface SPDF
An externally hosted image should be here but it was not working when we last tested it.
I built temporarily
An externally hosted image should be here but it was not working when we last tested it.
always on Ebay I bought also the controller for the CD-DVD
An externally hosted image should be here but it was not working when we last tested it.
and built a power supply that provides all the voltages needed
Finally, all connected
An externally hosted image should be here but it was not working when we last tested it.
listening to the sound is not bad, but there is a problem:
you hear an annoying interruption intermittent sound every 10 seconds for a period of 1/2 second
this defect occurs even flipping all readers (of various brands) in my possession;
thinking of a problem with the power supply made by me, I used the voltages supplied from that of a computer but without success.
The card with the DAC, when connected to my Onkyo 706 and a Blueray BDP-500 Panasonic, operating normally;
all readers of CD-DVD connected entrance SPDF a sound card SB ct4670
work without any problem
using the only player with the play button (no interface with the display)
the defect occurs
thinking that the cause may be the outgoing interface with the transformer, I replaced it with something more simple
not served
I noticed that many cards DAC (also with other chips) input have a WM8804 and looking around
http://www.wolfsonmicro.com/documents/uploads/data_sheets/en/WM8804.pdf
is used as a format converter (SPDIF> I2S and vice versa),
all connected
same problem
after many trials do not know how to go ahead, I can not understand the cause; surprising is the fact that after a while
that the hard work (10/15 min) the problem disappears, reappears just jump the track or go fast forward
Does anyone have suggestions on the cause ??
Sorry for the rough translation
It is indeed very important, that's why the clock should be as close as possible to the place of conversion. Millimetres matter!
But there can be errors witch are not dependant on the sampling clock.
Not that it all matters with modern converters, they are mostly transparent. Except for a few "high end" converters.
What matters is signal integrity and that's not necessarily the same thing as minimizing distance. You can transmit 10 gigabits per second on a fibre optic cable across the Atlantic with jitter far better than required for digital audio. On the other hand, you can screw up a SPDIF signal completely with a no-brand optical receiver.
Have you tested the CD transports with another DAC that is known good?
Have you tested the DAC with another SPDIF source that is known good?
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SPDIF sucks as we all know. There is an unknown quality clock in the drive, controlling the digital stream on the interface. On the receiving end there is a PLL that recovers the clock from the digital stream. Every PLL has some jitter, especially below the LP filter cutoff, and the recovered clock quality is also dependent on the quality of the clock in the drive. A good test for comparing different CD drives would be to use a DAC with a high quality master clock, and the drive be the slave (i.e. get the clock from the DAC). The drive and DAC should have separate power supplies in order to minimize interaction. Has anybody performed this test?
Deriving the audio clock from the incoming data is the quick, dirty and cheap method, but more advanced DACs use an asynchronous buffer / sample rate converter and an independent audio clock.
Clock track as short as possible, preferably next to the clock input pin...this is the best option, not only for the clock but to avoid the periodic changing signal (clock🙂) affecting other signals, the clock and its fundamentals are one of the main EMC concerns on a design (EMC and signal integrity are two sides of the same coin...).
Adding a clock on a separate board with wires going all over is not good for the clock signal.....
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Best way, with galvonic isolation for the data, get the data to the DAC then worry about the real things. Data is data whatever anyone believes or fantasies.
The studies referenced above failed to show audibility for jitter less than 30ns. Even SPDIF can manage that with ease.
With a good spectrum analyser you can detect very small amounts of jitter, but there is no proof of the audibility of it.
card with DAC ESS9018 was tested with the digital output of a BlueRay Panasonic bdt500 and a Onkyo DX-706, with both works perfectly;
all CD and DVD-Rom have been tested with the input SPDF a sound card and work perfectly, I have NO other separate DAC
I can not understand the cause of this can be interrupted in the audio
Yes - Shah 256 Checksum
I will not. The test can be performed at home. - rip your own CD. Do your own experiments. I did mine, now you do yours. Whatever results you find will be true for yourself.
On my system and on that of my friends systems .wav files sound different to .flac files when played back. There is a whole heap of discussion on the CMP + cPlay thread at Audioasylum, and many other threads on other fora.
These reports are very well documented, and it wasnt first reported by me.
No, because I'm not trying to prove anything to you or to anyone else. I don't feel like pushing **** up a hill. I know you can't hear the difference.
There really isnt much more to discuss between us, because we both have our own view on the topic and neither of us will be swayed unless we personaly experience a revelation.
Those that can hear these differences can hear it and those that can't - can't.
Many appologies for this interuption to the thread on CD Rom which i think is interesting. I'd much rather be hearing stories about the CD Roms 🙂
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