steenoe said:
The best format is lossless -- FLAC and Monkey's Audio (APE) being the most popular choices for PC users. For Mac it's FLAC and Apple lossless. These are basically compressed WAV files which do not throw bits away to cut the size, and have the added advantage of being able to store tags.
On a PC, the standard-setting ripper is Exact Audio Copy (free), which can rip and encode to FLAC/APE 'on the fly'. This software will read and re-read the CD until it is happy it has all the bits. If it can't (on badly scratched CDs for example), it lets you know where the dubious bits are.
For playback, there are tonnes of 'high-end' options -- soundcards provinding excellent analogue and digital outs via PCI cards or USB devices. Too many options to go into here, although of the options I've tried, here are my preferences:
1. DDDac NOS dac: USB>I2S>Dac
2. Modded M-audio transit w/benchmark DAC1: USB>SPDIF>glass optical>Benchmark DAC1.
3. Modded M-audio transit w/Marantz Dac: USB>SPDIF>glass optical>Marantz CD17DA
4 and below: various soundcards......
Which media player and which playback settings also make a difference.
Thanks ssmith, very useful🙂 I have had one if these USB-DAC kits lying for a while. Better build it and find out how good it can get from a PC.
http://www.diyaudiosystems.com/
Steen🙂
Edit:
http://www.diyaudiosystems.com/
Steen🙂
Edit:
What is the I2S?
Hi there.
I own a modded USB-DDDAC by myself.
The isynchrounus USB transfer mode though introduces jitter effects, since there is no interaction/handshake between source and receiver.
USB/SPDIF conversion introduces even more jitter. Cheap external DACs are using that. Forget that!
The best solution is, as it is done in the studio world, to have a DAC with a word/superclock as master clock, which is driving synchronously the PC with AES/SPDIF (e.g. Lynx AES16-PCI) interface and the application as clock slaves.
Further it would be the best to connect a differential DAC output,
directly to a differential AMP input. No caps or volume control in between!
Running the whole show with 24bits, which is not possible with my setup, would allow for digital volume control (32bit float), without relevant losses.
The pity, from my NONOS DAC perspective, AFAIK all 24bit DACs do oversampling and do have filters in the output.
My workaround for the time being to limit the USB clock issue is, as mentioned earlier, follollowing:
I am upsampling my tracks offline with the Voxengo R5Brain Pro tool to 48kHz. The 48kHz sampling frequency is a much better match clockwise for USB and the involved PCM2707 receiver.
I got rid of a real good portion of jitter this way! This solution offers the best cost/performance ratio I came across yet.
When it comes to the player on the PC.
There are huge differences!
The protool Samplitude is regarded by many people out there, including me, to have the best sounding audio engine on the market.
JRiver Media Center is pretty close though.
Let see what the shootout brings in January. I'll show up with above config.
I tried once to start the PC as source discussion here:
http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=88484
The result was rather disappointing from my perspective.
Still I think I brought it that far with my setup, to be able to face the shootout analogue vs. digital soon! 😉
Cheers
I own a modded USB-DDDAC by myself.
The isynchrounus USB transfer mode though introduces jitter effects, since there is no interaction/handshake between source and receiver.
USB/SPDIF conversion introduces even more jitter. Cheap external DACs are using that. Forget that!
The best solution is, as it is done in the studio world, to have a DAC with a word/superclock as master clock, which is driving synchronously the PC with AES/SPDIF (e.g. Lynx AES16-PCI) interface and the application as clock slaves.
Further it would be the best to connect a differential DAC output,
directly to a differential AMP input. No caps or volume control in between!
Running the whole show with 24bits, which is not possible with my setup, would allow for digital volume control (32bit float), without relevant losses.
The pity, from my NONOS DAC perspective, AFAIK all 24bit DACs do oversampling and do have filters in the output.
My workaround for the time being to limit the USB clock issue is, as mentioned earlier, follollowing:
I am upsampling my tracks offline with the Voxengo R5Brain Pro tool to 48kHz. The 48kHz sampling frequency is a much better match clockwise for USB and the involved PCM2707 receiver.
I got rid of a real good portion of jitter this way! This solution offers the best cost/performance ratio I came across yet.
When it comes to the player on the PC.
There are huge differences!
The protool Samplitude is regarded by many people out there, including me, to have the best sounding audio engine on the market.
JRiver Media Center is pretty close though.
Let see what the shootout brings in January. I'll show up with above config.
I tried once to start the PC as source discussion here:
http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=88484
The result was rather disappointing from my perspective.
Still I think I brought it that far with my setup, to be able to face the shootout analogue vs. digital soon! 😉
Cheers
soundcheck said:
I'm using either J River Media Center with Asio4all or Foobar with the Asio component plus the Secret Rabbit Code dll -- which upsamples to 48. Think I have a slight preference for Foobar, though hard to tell with these things.
What I can tell though is that the internal volume of JRMC and Foobar results in a FAR cleaner sound than my volume pot -- an Alps "black" RK40.
Never heard of Samplitude, or Voxengo R5Brain Pro tool... googling now...
For all USB DIY-DAC (based on PCM 2706/7) fans.
The ASIO driver of www.usb-audio.com is far better than ASIO4ALL or similar, because it replaces also poor usb-audio.sys of Microsoft! This is not the case with ASIO4ALL. The stream is still managed with the MS driver. It'll cause heavy jitter effects.
Cheers
The ASIO driver of www.usb-audio.com is far better than ASIO4ALL or similar, because it replaces also poor usb-audio.sys of Microsoft! This is not the case with ASIO4ALL. The stream is still managed with the MS driver. It'll cause heavy jitter effects.
Cheers
protos said:
Realtime-DSP or Offline?
Simplest:
Realtime-DSP:
JR River will do it with Shibatch SRC if you turn the DSP and upsampling on!
Quality:
Offline:
Voxengo R5brain Pro
We're getting more and more off-topic here. 😉
So if I want to burn a 48khz remastered cd I would rip the original cd upsample with voxengo and then burn it?
Then this cd would work normally in any cd player non-os dac etc but sound better than 44khz?
Ok a little bit off topic yes but still the objective is to use the best digital tools so that we can make ``cd as good as vinyl´´😉
Then this cd would work normally in any cd player non-os dac etc but sound better than 44khz?
Ok a little bit off topic yes but still the objective is to use the best digital tools so that we can make ``cd as good as vinyl´´😉
protos said:
NO NO. I am talking about PC based playback. I'll never ever burn a compact disk for serious playback again.
The 48kHz file stays on the H-disk.
Perhaps you try J.River Realtime upsampling first! Just to get an idea. 😉
I tried r8brain 48khz upsampling and burned a cd.However this does not work well with my teac transport feeding my nonos dac or even a perpetual tech dac.There is some distortion.I thought cd transports could read up to 48 khz and output this.I guess I have some reading to do.
However trying it on the pc based system gives clear improvements.The pc system uses a soundcard sb live audio feeding a naim 42/110 audio amp driving a pair of diy monitors with pretty good scan speak Revelator tweeters and mid bass.However they are placed very close together on the side since it is an office system.Despite this non-hi-end set up I could spot the difference.Much smoother , solid sound.
I guess you used the freeware and not the pro-version.
The pro-version is far better than the freeware.
The pro-version results in far more air between the instruments and orchestral stage layers. The separation becomes clean up to the background. Reverbaration increases. These are all typical jitter phenomenas you get rid off.
Again -- my statements above refer to a USB-DAC setup.
Cheers
The pro-version is far better than the freeware.
The pro-version results in far more air between the instruments and orchestral stage layers. The separation becomes clean up to the background. Reverbaration increases. These are all typical jitter phenomenas you get rid off.
Again -- my statements above refer to a USB-DAC setup.
Cheers
one more software to try
Audacity, the freeware program will allow you to resample your cd's and whatever. It also allows you to view the waveform and make changes in gain, and horrors, work with compression and other plug ins. After you get used to looking at some waveforms and using the program, you'll get a better idea of what it is that you're trying to "fix" and let you see the cd's output. A pc is necessary of course. The windows version has a nice "hard limiting" compressor.
I have worked on a bunch of mp3's this way, and it makes quite a difference, especially if you don't have the most audiophile playback system, and want to get the playback volume into the same range so that you can listen on your ipod without fiddling with the gain control or be blasted by a loud tune.
It will allow upsampling to the highest rate of your audio card. Really neat tool, free, try it out!!!!
Audacity, the freeware program will allow you to resample your cd's and whatever. It also allows you to view the waveform and make changes in gain, and horrors, work with compression and other plug ins. After you get used to looking at some waveforms and using the program, you'll get a better idea of what it is that you're trying to "fix" and let you see the cd's output. A pc is necessary of course. The windows version has a nice "hard limiting" compressor.
I have worked on a bunch of mp3's this way, and it makes quite a difference, especially if you don't have the most audiophile playback system, and want to get the playback volume into the same range so that you can listen on your ipod without fiddling with the gain control or be blasted by a loud tune.
It will allow upsampling to the highest rate of your audio card. Really neat tool, free, try it out!!!!
Re: one more software to try
Pesky.
I downloaded Audacity the other day. I doesn't even support ASIO as it seems. That's a No Go for me!
Cheers
pesky said:
Pesky.
I downloaded Audacity the other day. I doesn't even support ASIO as it seems. That's a No Go for me!
Cheers
I think that you're wrong
since I was using audacity before I had a soundcard, it must support the windows native sound system, AND since I have had it installed on my linux systems, I would have to believe that it supports asio. You do however have to go and set up the soundcard in the options menu in order to configure which device/driver it uses.
Have nothing but good things to say about it, especially free.
I also use Cubase, which has more functions, but costs a bit unless you get the free version with your device, in my case a presonus firebox.
when at first you don't succeed, try try again.
since I was using audacity before I had a soundcard, it must support the windows native sound system, AND since I have had it installed on my linux systems, I would have to believe that it supports asio. You do however have to go and set up the soundcard in the options menu in order to configure which device/driver it uses.
Have nothing but good things to say about it, especially free.
I also use Cubase, which has more functions, but costs a bit unless you get the free version with your device, in my case a presonus firebox.
when at first you don't succeed, try try again.
soundcard
I always had an onboard card, either the nvidia variety, or a turtle beach card. I have seen it installed on windows 2000, and XP, the program always "just worked" after installed, with little or no configuration. I would have to ask what computer/OS is giving you so much trouble with arguably the best free sound recording program out there.
It was on the list of "programs" in my ubuntu distro, and by simply clicking on it, installed itself, and found the asio driver.
There is a problem with using the firewire port and my firebox with linux, as you need to do quite a bit of configuration, use the 32 bit distro and freebob to get it working. It would find an onboard card however, like the sound blaster series with no problem. It found my onboard nvidia soundcard even using the 64bit distros.
if you look on sourceforge.net I'm sure you can find the answers to your quandry, and the newest version to install.
If at first you don't succeed, try try again
I always had an onboard card, either the nvidia variety, or a turtle beach card. I have seen it installed on windows 2000, and XP, the program always "just worked" after installed, with little or no configuration. I would have to ask what computer/OS is giving you so much trouble with arguably the best free sound recording program out there.
It was on the list of "programs" in my ubuntu distro, and by simply clicking on it, installed itself, and found the asio driver.
There is a problem with using the firewire port and my firebox with linux, as you need to do quite a bit of configuration, use the 32 bit distro and freebob to get it working. It would find an onboard card however, like the sound blaster series with no problem. It found my onboard nvidia soundcard even using the 64bit distros.
if you look on sourceforge.net I'm sure you can find the answers to your quandry, and the newest version to install.
If at first you don't succeed, try try again
Re: soundcard
Before I restart with Linux studies again,
I'd like you to download the free Samplitude 8.11 DEMO which provides all features you need to play highest-end music from PC. It might take you ten minutes to get it up to work.
If Samplitude sounds worse than audacity to your ears, I'll have a closer look at Linux with Audacity. Last time I spent quite some hours on it and didn't get my usb-DAC to work. (Even with a 6 years Unix system administraton background I didn't manage.)
Before I restart with Linux studies again,
I'd like you to download the free Samplitude 8.11 DEMO which provides all features you need to play highest-end music from PC. It might take you ten minutes to get it up to work.
If Samplitude sounds worse than audacity to your ears, I'll have a closer look at Linux with Audacity. Last time I spent quite some hours on it and didn't get my usb-DAC to work. (Even with a 6 years Unix system administraton background I didn't manage.)
will try out samplitude
the problem with outboard soundcards can't be overstated with linux at this time. The 64bit version of audacity had so many plugins (like 100 or so) that I tried for a week to use freebob and Jackd to get the thing working. The closest that I came was with the 32bit version linux kernel 2.6.17 and the most recent versions of freebob and jackd all of which I downloaded and compiled. The blue light on the device came on, but I still had a few errors that needed correcting. Unfortunately, the 32 bit version of audacity didn't have the array of plugins the the 64bit version had, so I gave up the chase.
I believe at this time that the freebob people have resolved the USB drivers issue, and that installing your device might not be as difficult as installing the ieee 1394 drivers etc. which has not been fully resolved in the 64 bit os. I have been using ubuntu, as it installs and gives a nice desktop with little hassle, and is Debian underneath, which I had been using for several years. I understand that the Debian versions of the driver libs may be up to date, but have a feeling again only for 32bit. I am being patient at this point, and waiting for the firewire issue to resolve itself, as I'm not a coder.
I am using windows xp at this point, without any virus protections and firewall turned off,(as well as all of my lan connections) in a second install of xp in order to exploit the maximum amount of speed from the os. (AMD64 compaq presario, 2 gigs ram, 500mb hard drive space, nvidia chipset, asus motherboard came with the presario, windows xp pro) and it still ran faster with the ubuntu edgy 64 bit distro.
The beauty of the windows xp is it much easier (possible) to make the presonus work, I'm stuck with it for now. Check out the freebob page, and if you're device is listed you may not have too hard a time installing the freebob and jackd, which in and of itself is worth the effort since you can software configure your "wiring" between various programs, allowing you to play your cd with one, and record on another with zero latency, and all digital path.
Again, don't know which flavor of linux you're running, if you haven't checked out the latest kernel, it's pretty supportive of many legacy items, so if you have an older computer compiling a kernel for it will make it scream, especially if you have nvidia items in the mix. I have another computer AMDathlon 3200+ with a gig of memory,and an nvidia chipset and recompiling the kernel is on my list to do, since it really makes a difference.
Perhaps a little off topic here, but it's like the state of the state and all that. To evaluate your samplitude package, I'll have to use the windows setup. Personally I haven't heard much difference between audio programs per se, but can really tell the difference that drivers make. Each program has it's own favorite, the Cubase favors the presonus asio driver (2.5 ms latency, it sounds great) and the mixvibes pro demo that I have is just too slow to take advantage of the low latency and sounds best with the Asio directx full duplex driver. Will check out the Audacity today again, since the last time I had it installed I had the onboard sound card (again windows setup)
I have been working with pro-audio for 25 years or so, and have been using computers as a hobbyist for a little longer. Recently have done some sys-admin with windows. Have been into the linux scene for a little over 2 years.
need a little time for some comparison shopping
pesky
the problem with outboard soundcards can't be overstated with linux at this time. The 64bit version of audacity had so many plugins (like 100 or so) that I tried for a week to use freebob and Jackd to get the thing working. The closest that I came was with the 32bit version linux kernel 2.6.17 and the most recent versions of freebob and jackd all of which I downloaded and compiled. The blue light on the device came on, but I still had a few errors that needed correcting. Unfortunately, the 32 bit version of audacity didn't have the array of plugins the the 64bit version had, so I gave up the chase.
I believe at this time that the freebob people have resolved the USB drivers issue, and that installing your device might not be as difficult as installing the ieee 1394 drivers etc. which has not been fully resolved in the 64 bit os. I have been using ubuntu, as it installs and gives a nice desktop with little hassle, and is Debian underneath, which I had been using for several years. I understand that the Debian versions of the driver libs may be up to date, but have a feeling again only for 32bit. I am being patient at this point, and waiting for the firewire issue to resolve itself, as I'm not a coder.
I am using windows xp at this point, without any virus protections and firewall turned off,(as well as all of my lan connections) in a second install of xp in order to exploit the maximum amount of speed from the os. (AMD64 compaq presario, 2 gigs ram, 500mb hard drive space, nvidia chipset, asus motherboard came with the presario, windows xp pro) and it still ran faster with the ubuntu edgy 64 bit distro.
The beauty of the windows xp is it much easier (possible) to make the presonus work, I'm stuck with it for now. Check out the freebob page, and if you're device is listed you may not have too hard a time installing the freebob and jackd, which in and of itself is worth the effort since you can software configure your "wiring" between various programs, allowing you to play your cd with one, and record on another with zero latency, and all digital path.
Again, don't know which flavor of linux you're running, if you haven't checked out the latest kernel, it's pretty supportive of many legacy items, so if you have an older computer compiling a kernel for it will make it scream, especially if you have nvidia items in the mix. I have another computer AMDathlon 3200+ with a gig of memory,and an nvidia chipset and recompiling the kernel is on my list to do, since it really makes a difference.
Perhaps a little off topic here, but it's like the state of the state and all that. To evaluate your samplitude package, I'll have to use the windows setup. Personally I haven't heard much difference between audio programs per se, but can really tell the difference that drivers make. Each program has it's own favorite, the Cubase favors the presonus asio driver (2.5 ms latency, it sounds great) and the mixvibes pro demo that I have is just too slow to take advantage of the low latency and sounds best with the Asio directx full duplex driver. Will check out the Audacity today again, since the last time I had it installed I had the onboard sound card (again windows setup)
I have been working with pro-audio for 25 years or so, and have been using computers as a hobbyist for a little longer. Recently have done some sys-admin with windows. Have been into the linux scene for a little over 2 years.
need a little time for some comparison shopping
pesky
test results
Well you asked..... The samplitude demo that I downloaded allowed me one minute of recording time, but that was enough to compare it with the audacity v.1.3 beta, which of course is free.
I used an Audio Technica "digital reference" dr cx1, which is a large diaphragm condenser mic which I have used previously with Cubase, and have a good idea of what it sounds like.
I recorded 2 takes at the highest sample rates available from the programs, which is 24bit 96khz for the samplitude, and 32bit float 96khz for the audacity. Neither program gave me the option of using the firebox low latency driver, but both found the firebox mixer which allows access to the firebox. The cubase program allows me to use the lower latency version driver, and sounds the best of all the programs, demonstrating more highs, a more realistic mid range, and it really sounds like my voice, which is not particularly bassy.
The second place is the Audacity, which according to the website has 90 plugins that you can download for free, as well as the ability to download a lame encoder so that you can rip tracks to mp3 directly, which would be very useful when ripping albums. The vocal sounded nearly as good as the Cubase version, with a slight loss of air around the mic, (probably due to the driver difference) but still good rendering of the actual sound of my voice. the interface takes a little getting used to, but is very simple at a glance, you have to dig deeper into the program to get at many functions, like plug ins.
The loser, but by no means a slug is the Samplitude (demo) Hindered by bitdepth, the sound of my voice was in many ways more pleasant, warmer, and more bassy sounding, there was the least amount of air around the mic, and it sounded more like I was in a recording booth. It was the most colored of the three, but the coloration was not unpleasant. The interface was fairly easy looking like a channel on a console with many plugins at the ready.
Depending on what you're going for, any of the three will do, for free, with great sounding audio and nearly a hundred free plugins, Audacity's reputation is well deserved.
pesky
Well you asked..... The samplitude demo that I downloaded allowed me one minute of recording time, but that was enough to compare it with the audacity v.1.3 beta, which of course is free.
I used an Audio Technica "digital reference" dr cx1, which is a large diaphragm condenser mic which I have used previously with Cubase, and have a good idea of what it sounds like.
I recorded 2 takes at the highest sample rates available from the programs, which is 24bit 96khz for the samplitude, and 32bit float 96khz for the audacity. Neither program gave me the option of using the firebox low latency driver, but both found the firebox mixer which allows access to the firebox. The cubase program allows me to use the lower latency version driver, and sounds the best of all the programs, demonstrating more highs, a more realistic mid range, and it really sounds like my voice, which is not particularly bassy.
The second place is the Audacity, which according to the website has 90 plugins that you can download for free, as well as the ability to download a lame encoder so that you can rip tracks to mp3 directly, which would be very useful when ripping albums. The vocal sounded nearly as good as the Cubase version, with a slight loss of air around the mic, (probably due to the driver difference) but still good rendering of the actual sound of my voice. the interface takes a little getting used to, but is very simple at a glance, you have to dig deeper into the program to get at many functions, like plug ins.
The loser, but by no means a slug is the Samplitude (demo) Hindered by bitdepth, the sound of my voice was in many ways more pleasant, warmer, and more bassy sounding, there was the least amount of air around the mic, and it sounded more like I was in a recording booth. It was the most colored of the three, but the coloration was not unpleasant. The interface was fairly easy looking like a channel on a console with many plugins at the ready.
Depending on what you're going for, any of the three will do, for free, with great sounding audio and nearly a hundred free plugins, Audacity's reputation is well deserved.
pesky
coupla more words on Samplitude
did some more exploration of the samplitude demo, and managed to get it to use the asio presonus firebox driver. only got 8 more seconds of record time since the TOTAL amount of time you can record is 1 minute, not just a one minute track. Did listen to the 8 seconds worth, and the program and my vocal sounded mostly the same as before. I set the bit depth to 32 bit, although it really didn't tell me if it was 32bit float. Really tough to tell any more with the limited amount of recording time available, and my initial impression and my final impressions were about the same.
There may be some sort of amp modeling going on with the program to make it sound "fatter", which could explain the coloration. Like I said it's not necessarily a bad thing, but would explain why "remastering" your cd's made them sound "better".
there are plug ins available to do the same thing. Personally I like to add what's necessary if it's necessary.
pesky🙂
did some more exploration of the samplitude demo, and managed to get it to use the asio presonus firebox driver. only got 8 more seconds of record time since the TOTAL amount of time you can record is 1 minute, not just a one minute track. Did listen to the 8 seconds worth, and the program and my vocal sounded mostly the same as before. I set the bit depth to 32 bit, although it really didn't tell me if it was 32bit float. Really tough to tell any more with the limited amount of recording time available, and my initial impression and my final impressions were about the same.
There may be some sort of amp modeling going on with the program to make it sound "fatter", which could explain the coloration. Like I said it's not necessarily a bad thing, but would explain why "remastering" your cd's made them sound "better".
there are plug ins available to do the same thing. Personally I like to add what's necessary if it's necessary.
pesky🙂
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