The thing about EAC is that it's very keen on reading "the truth", the exact data without interpolation. It might do this better than usual CD players, so there's maybe "more" in EAC files then in what your hifi player is reading from the disc.
I agree.....
Correction isn't the way to try to make a CD sound close to real sound !! Any correction are either an addition or subtraction in sound.... Never the the correct "sound"
Just admit that digi-sound isn't perfect yet, and when you want relacs your ears just listen to the old good analog recordings😀
Correction isn't the way to try to make a CD sound close to real sound !! Any correction are either an addition or subtraction in sound.... Never the the correct "sound"
Just admit that digi-sound isn't perfect yet, and when you want relacs your ears just listen to the old good analog recordings😀
When there's only crap, it will read crap. But if there's a possibility to get the original data restored (mutliple read attemts, advanced error correction mechanisms based on those multiple read attempts (just a guess)), EAC will find it.
Recordings..
At the core it would seem to be ultimately up to guy in the booth as to what sounds good....bring up vocals here..... down on the drums there...
Yes there is compression on alot of tracks...our systems make instruments sound...not accurate...close your eyes, bring a sax player to a session with your system...can you tell which one is the real sax & which is your system? That is my ultimate test, if ones system fails this simple test one needs to backtrack thruout the process & poor mastering is more and more a significant factor.
_____________________________________Rick...........
At the core it would seem to be ultimately up to guy in the booth as to what sounds good....bring up vocals here..... down on the drums there...
Yes there is compression on alot of tracks...our systems make instruments sound...not accurate...close your eyes, bring a sax player to a session with your system...can you tell which one is the real sax & which is your system? That is my ultimate test, if ones system fails this simple test one needs to backtrack thruout the process & poor mastering is more and more a significant factor.
_____________________________________Rick...........
CD as good as vinyl?
Short answer: No.
Long answer: CD were trying to get closer to vinyl, before everyone started the volume war with mastering. All you get on CD's are square waves these days. And then you take the shitty square wave signal and compress them down to mp3, and it gets worse.
Out Here,
Robert
p.s. The only time you have to worry about jitter is in the A/D converter when you are recording your tracks in a studio, After that it's in the digital domain and whatever jitter is there is there forever.
Short answer: No.
Long answer: CD were trying to get closer to vinyl, before everyone started the volume war with mastering. All you get on CD's are square waves these days. And then you take the shitty square wave signal and compress them down to mp3, and it gets worse.
Out Here,
Robert
p.s. The only time you have to worry about jitter is in the A/D converter when you are recording your tracks in a studio, After that it's in the digital domain and whatever jitter is there is there forever.
Some time ago, in a similar thread was established that bit errors are pretty much a non-issue. If EAC offers improvements it is only because of reduced jitter in the freshly burnt CD. There are commercial hardware devices which apparently achieve the same and meet with lots of enthusiasm from audiophiles.
As the clock/PS of the cd burner seem largely responsible for the decreased (or simply decorrelated?) jitter it is strange we don't hear of any diy improvements. How good can the PS of a cd burner be?
As the clock/PS of the cd burner seem largely responsible for the decreased (or simply decorrelated?) jitter it is strange we don't hear of any diy improvements. How good can the PS of a cd burner be?
Somehow no matter what I have tried or done CDs don't seem to be a nice as vinyl but I agree DVD-A transfers of LPs are very very nice. My feeling is CDs just don't have enough data to start with.
The great thing about LP to DVD-A transfer is that you can then EQ and mod the recordings to really sound at their best on your system and then the firworks really happen!
Overall I feel you could spend an absolute fortune on CD gear and still not get the results that could be achieved via DVD-A tranfers and a decent player for far less.
THe software available for this these days is utterly stunning and I feel pretty confident that almost anyone with a bit of experience could conjur up better results via LP transfer than most of the dreadfully overprocessed CD pressing out there.
Really we don't have too much choice if we want real hi res, commercial DVD-As are dead in the water it seems and SACDs are getting pretty rare and limited. Funny isn't it.
The great thing about LP to DVD-A transfer is that you can then EQ and mod the recordings to really sound at their best on your system and then the firworks really happen!
Overall I feel you could spend an absolute fortune on CD gear and still not get the results that could be achieved via DVD-A tranfers and a decent player for far less.
THe software available for this these days is utterly stunning and I feel pretty confident that almost anyone with a bit of experience could conjur up better results via LP transfer than most of the dreadfully overprocessed CD pressing out there.
Really we don't have too much choice if we want real hi res, commercial DVD-As are dead in the water it seems and SACDs are getting pretty rare and limited. Funny isn't it.
protos said:
SBM is just a noise-shaper used in conversion from longer words down to 16 bit. There are literally zillions of such algorithms around, and Adobe Audition (ne CoolEdit) already has about 10 of them in it, for free.
Today I record at 24b nominal into the DV-RA1000 (at least 18 bits
effective, as the front-end noise is masking the ADC's true resolution),
process in the PC at 32b, and then truncate to 16b: no dither or noise-shaping applied as the front-end thermal noise, not even mentioning the noise from the LP and phonostage, is already auto-dithering everything.
But anyway, my Denon DVD-2930 has arrived (it betters a modified Rega Planet in most respects) and now I can start dumping everything to 96k/24b on audio-only DVD-V.
I don't see a future for home-recorded DVD-A as there is no guarantee that future players will encompass DVD-A. There is no such uncertainty with DVD-V.
Hi folks.
The question heading this thread should be "digital playback as good as analog playback".
IMO - Yes - I regard Digital even the better choice!
IMO, the tracks have to stay on the PC! With the right PC-setup, software and DAC you can forget about CD (-R) or vinyl once and forever, that's for sure.
It saves you lot of money and time on endless discussions .
To me the vinyl trend is nothing else than a industry led retro trend to cover up a bit the losses in the CD area.
CD and Vinyl days are over soon, as soon as the audio consumer world understands the potenial of the PC as source!
The MP3 world and the professional audio studio world understood that years ago.
Hope that so called audio freaks wake up soon!
Cheers
Klaus
The question heading this thread should be "digital playback as good as analog playback".
IMO - Yes - I regard Digital even the better choice!
IMO, the tracks have to stay on the PC! With the right PC-setup, software and DAC you can forget about CD (-R) or vinyl once and forever, that's for sure.
It saves you lot of money and time on endless discussions .
To me the vinyl trend is nothing else than a industry led retro trend to cover up a bit the losses in the CD area.
CD and Vinyl days are over soon, as soon as the audio consumer world understands the potenial of the PC as source!
The MP3 world and the professional audio studio world understood that years ago.
Hope that so called audio freaks wake up soon!
Cheers
Klaus
Disagreed. There is no "industry" behind vinyl. You won't call those few people in the world building turntables and pressing LPs an industry.
In fact, it's the industry's fault that vinyl is back again, because Sony & Co. managed to kill every approach to bring music reproduction really one step further.
Do you mean flac files and usb dac? I dont suppose you could mean that MP3's would sound good? Is the information on a normal music-CD better quality than what you hear when playing it in a cd-player? If that is the case, it might be potentially better to play it through a pc.
Steen🙂
Regarding EAC I made two tests.One test disc was burnt with same tracks but half the tracks were imported with itunes and the other with EAC then all were burnt with itunes.On the second cd the tracks were EAC imported and burned.
My preference was the full EAC imported and burned cd.The imported in eac but itunes burned tracks were second.The imported and burned itunes tracks came last.I did not expect a difference in what program did the burning but to me it was obvious which was the best.
The original cd compared to the full eac cd sounded like mp3 in the final comparison.
My preference was the full EAC imported and burned cd.The imported in eac but itunes burned tracks were second.The imported and burned itunes tracks came last.I did not expect a difference in what program did the burning but to me it was obvious which was the best.
The original cd compared to the full eac cd sounded like mp3 in the final comparison.
soundcheck said:
Wow, I didn't know how hip I was...since I've never allowed a CD player in my system. I do listen to them thru headphones on my PC every once in a while.
HBarske said:
I guess you know what I meant between the lines. 😉
Thanx anyhow for your comment to make that clear.
If it is not the CD industry in that sense than it's the "higher end audio industry" having a great interest to keep the ball low.
And the CD industry keeps the ball low, because they face a huge DRM issue, if all lossless data would be stored on the PC or would be downloadable via internet.
MP3 is not an issue though, who cares about low quality strip-downs. And yes there are people out there downloading poor MP3 for one, two or more dollars a piece.
Today at least a part of their revenues can (still) be made by selling CDs. They don't have a clue though how to protect their rights. They should learn from Microsoft. 😉 And I guess the SACD
did not fly because of its DRM and not because of its superiour quality. DRM has to be done different! They should rather go the direction sell more for less! Many customers would accept this, instead of trying to sell high-priced SACDs or DVD-As.
There are plenty of interest groups being not interested in the PC as source for highest-end audio playback.
You'll get a PC or Notebook ( I guess 100% of all potential users got one anyhow), an external 500GB Disk, where you'll get almost 600 CDs lossless .wav stored, and one gig extra ram for around thousand $ these days.
Great SW players are even free of charge. Play your file from RAM, with e.g. foobar. And you're almost there.
More than decent high-quality DACs and AMP (T-AMP) you'll get already for for less than 200$. ( I guess you'll find a couple of hundreds threads in total about them at DIY-audio.)
I gotta stop here. ;-) This thread is about vinyl vs. digital.
The last comment to sum that up.
Even with above mentioned low budget system, you need a lot more money, if you want to beat that by doing it the analogue way.
steenoe said:
I do mean high-end lossless audio. For very little money.
As soon as it is ripped on your PC you've got a huge jitter source less.
There are lot of people ( probably the same interest groups as mentioned above) around talking about noisy PC environments.
Hey - I mean - There are hundreds of complete passive cooled PCs out there. How do you think almost all recording studios get their PC noise managed!
There are companies like media giants popping up already, where you can download high quality files. To me - one of the ways to go.
If the industry gets the DRM done. I believe downloadable high-quality tracks in master quality is the way to go.
Soon we won't have an issue downloading even 24bit 196khz files looking at the development on PC, peripherie and Internet access. Vinyl is having difficulties to beat 16/44,1 already, what will happen with higher resolutions.
Look at the focus Microsoft puts on highest-quality audio with Vista. The PC will be the one and only source in the future.
You can't stop the train.
I hope I didn't step too many folks around here on their feet. 😀
Above said is my personal opinion and I think I am just pointing out what I think will happen soon or better is already happening.
Cheers
KLS
hi res audio
with the trend towards cheaper and cheaper storage devices, namely hard drives, "ripping" your albums to 92khz 32bit float is the way to go. Although you can't play them anywhere, with a good a/d d/a like the presonus firebox or motu or other "audophile" device, the sound quality gets better and better. with 500 gig drives in the stores already, and a terrabyte in the works, storage is not a problem. You do of course have to have a computer connected to your system, but they have gone down in price, and certainly are the way to go.
rip your album collection, play the wave files (not regular wave files mind you, or aiff if you have a mac) via Audacity (a free program if you do a google search) or cubase, cakewalk, or whatever audio program is your flavor. The real limitation at this point is the lack of a better player that will allow you to access the files without the hassle of starting up and individually selecting each file and dragging it into the "recording" program.
Someone should develop a new player that encompasses the "64 bit" wave format, and we could all have the "Uberpod" to use on our home computers.
with the trend towards cheaper and cheaper storage devices, namely hard drives, "ripping" your albums to 92khz 32bit float is the way to go. Although you can't play them anywhere, with a good a/d d/a like the presonus firebox or motu or other "audophile" device, the sound quality gets better and better. with 500 gig drives in the stores already, and a terrabyte in the works, storage is not a problem. You do of course have to have a computer connected to your system, but they have gone down in price, and certainly are the way to go.
rip your album collection, play the wave files (not regular wave files mind you, or aiff if you have a mac) via Audacity (a free program if you do a google search) or cubase, cakewalk, or whatever audio program is your flavor. The real limitation at this point is the lack of a better player that will allow you to access the files without the hassle of starting up and individually selecting each file and dragging it into the "recording" program.
Someone should develop a new player that encompasses the "64 bit" wave format, and we could all have the "Uberpod" to use on our home computers.
PS
once you rip your album, at the highest rates currently available, put them in a temperature and humidity controlled storage facility, and wait until the faster, higher sample rate converters become available, guaranteeing lifelong access to your music, free from charges, except for the original vinyl.
you can always re-sample at a lower rate for those portable devices like cd or ipod.
pesky 😎
once you rip your album, at the highest rates currently available, put them in a temperature and humidity controlled storage facility, and wait until the faster, higher sample rate converters become available, guaranteeing lifelong access to your music, free from charges, except for the original vinyl.
you can always re-sample at a lower rate for those portable devices like cd or ipod.
pesky 😎
Re: hi res audio
Hi pesky.
I am in close contact of somebody doing that! 😀
Soon he'll launch this player. It's supposed to be better than anything else available right now .
Until than I am using Samplitude as a single track player superiour to all other PRO-SW I tried.
J.River MC is to my ears the best sounding non PRO player.
DEMOs are available for both packages.
I pretty much agree to your upsampling statement.
I just upsampled some days ago my whole collection offline with a PRO tool, but not to store it only!! Listen & believe!!! Whow- This is a killer-tweak!!! 😀 😀
pesky said:
Hi pesky.
I am in close contact of somebody doing that! 😀
Soon he'll launch this player. It's supposed to be better than anything else available right now .
Until than I am using Samplitude as a single track player superiour to all other PRO-SW I tried.
J.River MC is to my ears the best sounding non PRO player.
DEMOs are available for both packages.
I pretty much agree to your upsampling statement.
I just upsampled some days ago my whole collection offline with a PRO tool, but not to store it only!! Listen & believe!!! Whow- This is a killer-tweak!!! 😀 😀
Well, with huge storage devices there's always the risk of losing everything if the storage device itself dies. And who is patient enought to make a backup every time they buy something new? I am still a firm believer in portable media, such as CD or DVD disks for this reason. I also believe that downloading a song here and another there is just an atrocity. An album is a work of art. A whole, not just a bunch of random songs thrown together. OK, admittedly, these are purely philosophical questions, nothing to do with sound quality. I tend to lean towards the thought of recordings being in some sort of "static" form in the future. Memory cards or chips etc. We are already using memorycards for a number of applications. There's no real reason why they couldn't be used to hold high quality audio. Are we about to have memorycard readers with high quality DAC built in as high-end audio players? Maybe, maybe not. Be the case whatever, it can't get any worse than it is now. Well, it can, but that would be something from a bleak scifi movie.
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