I can't hide the hope that this thread will be read by many.
Warning: Long, ranting post. TL;DR: I failed at a build.
If you lurk here regularly, you probably saw the thread related to my build. I ventured in a "simple enough" small build around the new Fostex FF85-WK.
Today, the build ultimately proved to be *disastrous*, insanely time consuming, provided so much stress that i ended up destroying a door in my country house and stopped being fun very early and became a _nightmare_.
I sincerely wish that i will learn something from this experience and i'm posting to just give out my 2cents on how and when to start a DIY project talking from direct experience on when _not_ to do so.
This is not really something the "pros" should concern with. You probably have already a process you follow on every build, you have a system of priorities and design honed over several builds and you probably don't have such a big emotional load up on each and every one of your creations so that a failure will leave you in the distress i currently am in.
Point 1. - Never work on a schedule
This seems pretty obvious but a month to build a simple BR enclosure and fit it with a bunch of electronics (i was onto an "active speaker" project) looked like a fine amount of time to me.
What happened is that i constantly got interrupted and in the end i started to take shortcuts to catch up with the deadline and the last 3 days have been a chaotic fever of increasing screw ups that ultimately wrecked my cabinet and probably a USB Dac. Oh and my self-esteem.
Point 2. - Work at home or in a place you feel your own
I live in a small place in the south of Italy and during the summer i spend some time in the north where my family still lives. This led me to believe it was fine to use the plenty room there is here, and the tools, for my own purpose believing that it was pointless to buy again a router, an expensive vertical drill, a miter saw etc when my family had them all available here and i didn't have a space to work in at my place anyway.
This meant i had people in the way every moment, i had to be active on their schedule for the menial tasks of everyday living and the tools were never in their place as they were used by multiple people.
Always work with your tools, in your space!
Point 3. - Probe your peers but make your own decisions
You can obviously look for a second opinion but if you are like me, this hobby, this activity is about expressing an idea, a concept you have in your head and giving it a physical shape.
There is nothing worse than having a very clear picture of what you want in your head and slowly seeing it materialize in something completely different and more often than not ominous.
If the build is not coming up as you plan, stop. Take a break and if in doubt whether to take a compromise or start from scratch again, start again.
If you choose to compromise, you'll end up regretting it and the small defect, the missing feature will likely bug you and constantly be under your eyes.
Point 4. - Go with the crowd.
This might spark some controversy, but if you are a beginner or anyway an average schmoe like me that only builds something, that requires commitment, once every few months, don't innovate if you want to achieve a concrete result.
Pick your projects among the "evergreens". The builds everyone is doing. Be rational in your decisions and always be sure of when and where you will get to use your creation.
No point in building a 300w amplifier with a 4way system if you live in a flat with neighboors that get itchy every time you raise your tv volume above the noise floor.
The reason people usually don't go some route is that someone among them tried and failed. Or that it's so uneconomical that the reasons you think are worth trying it for end up not really being so important at the end of the road.
In my case, getting stuck on a pair of active speakers. What i had in my head was awesome, was handy and easy to work with. Too bad you can't really achieve it without a CNC, a cheap way to manufacture Printed Circuit Boards and more time.
Today i felt a crushing defeat knowing that over 5 months of planning, sourcing the parts, working on the cad drawings of the cabinet, and figuring out how to combine all together led to _nothing_.
I invested countless hours in this build, it was my second build and the first one accurately planned. I thought i had it all figured out.
I now have two unusable , splintered carcasses of cabinets, a USB Dac with a pulled up condenser and a bag of scraps i could probably use in some other builds but that at the moment i only feel like burning in a stove.
I also feel sorry for all the people on this forum i inconvenienced with my beginner's questions about speaker building.
I actually love this hobby, i love the physicality of it. The fact that you start with an idea, a whim of something beautiful in your head and it can eventually take shape into an object with a sound, a smell of paint and seasoned wood and warm colors filling rooms with your favourite music.
But i will never try build anything again until i can afford to have a workshop of my own, of which only _I_ have the key and equipped with tools that i bought _myself_
I hope this will save people some time and stress. I really feel like someone should at least get something positive out of this.
/Karmik out.
Warning: Long, ranting post. TL;DR: I failed at a build.
If you lurk here regularly, you probably saw the thread related to my build. I ventured in a "simple enough" small build around the new Fostex FF85-WK.
Today, the build ultimately proved to be *disastrous*, insanely time consuming, provided so much stress that i ended up destroying a door in my country house and stopped being fun very early and became a _nightmare_.
I sincerely wish that i will learn something from this experience and i'm posting to just give out my 2cents on how and when to start a DIY project talking from direct experience on when _not_ to do so.
This is not really something the "pros" should concern with. You probably have already a process you follow on every build, you have a system of priorities and design honed over several builds and you probably don't have such a big emotional load up on each and every one of your creations so that a failure will leave you in the distress i currently am in.
Point 1. - Never work on a schedule
This seems pretty obvious but a month to build a simple BR enclosure and fit it with a bunch of electronics (i was onto an "active speaker" project) looked like a fine amount of time to me.
What happened is that i constantly got interrupted and in the end i started to take shortcuts to catch up with the deadline and the last 3 days have been a chaotic fever of increasing screw ups that ultimately wrecked my cabinet and probably a USB Dac. Oh and my self-esteem.
Point 2. - Work at home or in a place you feel your own
I live in a small place in the south of Italy and during the summer i spend some time in the north where my family still lives. This led me to believe it was fine to use the plenty room there is here, and the tools, for my own purpose believing that it was pointless to buy again a router, an expensive vertical drill, a miter saw etc when my family had them all available here and i didn't have a space to work in at my place anyway.
This meant i had people in the way every moment, i had to be active on their schedule for the menial tasks of everyday living and the tools were never in their place as they were used by multiple people.
Always work with your tools, in your space!
Point 3. - Probe your peers but make your own decisions
You can obviously look for a second opinion but if you are like me, this hobby, this activity is about expressing an idea, a concept you have in your head and giving it a physical shape.
There is nothing worse than having a very clear picture of what you want in your head and slowly seeing it materialize in something completely different and more often than not ominous.
If the build is not coming up as you plan, stop. Take a break and if in doubt whether to take a compromise or start from scratch again, start again.
If you choose to compromise, you'll end up regretting it and the small defect, the missing feature will likely bug you and constantly be under your eyes.
Point 4. - Go with the crowd.
This might spark some controversy, but if you are a beginner or anyway an average schmoe like me that only builds something, that requires commitment, once every few months, don't innovate if you want to achieve a concrete result.
Pick your projects among the "evergreens". The builds everyone is doing. Be rational in your decisions and always be sure of when and where you will get to use your creation.
No point in building a 300w amplifier with a 4way system if you live in a flat with neighboors that get itchy every time you raise your tv volume above the noise floor.
The reason people usually don't go some route is that someone among them tried and failed. Or that it's so uneconomical that the reasons you think are worth trying it for end up not really being so important at the end of the road.
In my case, getting stuck on a pair of active speakers. What i had in my head was awesome, was handy and easy to work with. Too bad you can't really achieve it without a CNC, a cheap way to manufacture Printed Circuit Boards and more time.
Today i felt a crushing defeat knowing that over 5 months of planning, sourcing the parts, working on the cad drawings of the cabinet, and figuring out how to combine all together led to _nothing_.
I invested countless hours in this build, it was my second build and the first one accurately planned. I thought i had it all figured out.
I now have two unusable , splintered carcasses of cabinets, a USB Dac with a pulled up condenser and a bag of scraps i could probably use in some other builds but that at the moment i only feel like burning in a stove.
I also feel sorry for all the people on this forum i inconvenienced with my beginner's questions about speaker building.
I actually love this hobby, i love the physicality of it. The fact that you start with an idea, a whim of something beautiful in your head and it can eventually take shape into an object with a sound, a smell of paint and seasoned wood and warm colors filling rooms with your favourite music.
But i will never try build anything again until i can afford to have a workshop of my own, of which only _I_ have the key and equipped with tools that i bought _myself_
I hope this will save people some time and stress. I really feel like someone should at least get something positive out of this.
/Karmik out.
I feel your pain!
The best advice is never, never, NEVER have a schedule--it is a hobby, a relaxation thing...with an educational kick. I learned years ago the golden rule with jobs. The first 90% of a job takes the first 90% of the time--the last 10% of a job takes the last 90% of the time. 😱
I have a few pearls of wisdom to throw in--from the school of speaker building.
It will cost twice as much as you think it will.
Both from wood, materials, crossover parts (to do again) to additional "features" you add. I spent $100 on glue, screws, felt and foam gaskets for my vertical line array project this summer.
Don't work outside or in a building on a speaker if the temperature is higher than your body temperature.
I built mine during a heat wave, 50% of the time was spent in scorching heat...and I moved forward about 10%. The brain does funny things when it is slow roasting.
Think of every possible feature you want for the speaker, understand it's ultimate goal and design it in before making the first cut.
Adding flip out side handles, bumpers front and rear to protect it if (when) it falls over and having a removable front bezel added many revisions to the build. Adding stuff "later" either means it will never happen or "later" soon turns into NOW!
There is no such thing as too much wood!
This also applies to screws, glue, gasket material, solder, cable ties, wiring, drill bits, Roto-Zip bits, router bits, sand paper and anything consumable. Buy the big bottles, big spools and big packages of items.
You know you've learned something when you swear to never build one of those !@#$! 🤐 😡 things ever again! But as a DIY'er, the next build will be even more complex because you forget all the horrors when building the last one.
My vertical line arrays took me 3 months to build but they are finished. They work well, sound decent and make a great garage sound system. I'm still in the full understanding of the process but still feel the pain. Give it a week, I'll forget the pain and the bug will bite again.
But next time--it will be much better because I've learned this trick.
Next time it will be much faster because I have more experience with wood working etc.
I just built a pair of 6 foot tall line arrays that use a total of 120 drivers--how hard could ONE tapped horn subwoofer be? One hole, one speaker, no crossover and a couple of angled boards...it should only take me.....
One month... 😀
See??? I'm in denial already...
The best advice is never, never, NEVER have a schedule--it is a hobby, a relaxation thing...with an educational kick. I learned years ago the golden rule with jobs. The first 90% of a job takes the first 90% of the time--the last 10% of a job takes the last 90% of the time. 😱
I have a few pearls of wisdom to throw in--from the school of speaker building.
It will cost twice as much as you think it will.
Both from wood, materials, crossover parts (to do again) to additional "features" you add. I spent $100 on glue, screws, felt and foam gaskets for my vertical line array project this summer.
Don't work outside or in a building on a speaker if the temperature is higher than your body temperature.
I built mine during a heat wave, 50% of the time was spent in scorching heat...and I moved forward about 10%. The brain does funny things when it is slow roasting.
Think of every possible feature you want for the speaker, understand it's ultimate goal and design it in before making the first cut.
Adding flip out side handles, bumpers front and rear to protect it if (when) it falls over and having a removable front bezel added many revisions to the build. Adding stuff "later" either means it will never happen or "later" soon turns into NOW!
There is no such thing as too much wood!
This also applies to screws, glue, gasket material, solder, cable ties, wiring, drill bits, Roto-Zip bits, router bits, sand paper and anything consumable. Buy the big bottles, big spools and big packages of items.
You know you've learned something when you swear to never build one of those !@#$! 🤐 😡 things ever again! But as a DIY'er, the next build will be even more complex because you forget all the horrors when building the last one.
My vertical line arrays took me 3 months to build but they are finished. They work well, sound decent and make a great garage sound system. I'm still in the full understanding of the process but still feel the pain. Give it a week, I'll forget the pain and the bug will bite again.
But next time--it will be much better because I've learned this trick.
Next time it will be much faster because I have more experience with wood working etc.
I just built a pair of 6 foot tall line arrays that use a total of 120 drivers--how hard could ONE tapped horn subwoofer be? One hole, one speaker, no crossover and a couple of angled boards...it should only take me.....
One month... 😀
See??? I'm in denial already...
Hi Karmik.
Deadlines are for work not hobbies, the last 10% of a job always takes 90% of the time to do it well.
I understand your workshop frustration, I have a table top in a spare room and a back yard in rainy England!
Step back for a little while and hopefully things may look manageable again. It hasn't come to nothing if it has taught you things for your next run at it.
John
Deadlines are for work not hobbies, the last 10% of a job always takes 90% of the time to do it well.
I understand your workshop frustration, I have a table top in a spare room and a back yard in rainy England!
Step back for a little while and hopefully things may look manageable again. It hasn't come to nothing if it has taught you things for your next run at it.
John
It took me at least three years to build my Bob Cordell distortion analyzer. Hey, it's just a few PCBs in a chassis. When you do something that's beyond your current abilities, you have to go slower so you can learn what you need to learn.
I started building my shop and lab because that's the only way to get anything done. You need your own known-good test leads, equipment and tools. OK, I did get a bit carried away. I used the school shop when I was in school and it was a giant PITA. I used the shop where I worked because they offered that as a benefit. It was a giant PITA because too much else was always going on.
The main thing I know is that anything is possible under any circumstances if you break it down into simple enough tasks. If something is giving you trouble, subdivide it even further. At some point each part becomes so trivial you can't help but suceed. That path is still open to you 😎
I started building my shop and lab because that's the only way to get anything done. You need your own known-good test leads, equipment and tools. OK, I did get a bit carried away. I used the school shop when I was in school and it was a giant PITA. I used the shop where I worked because they offered that as a benefit. It was a giant PITA because too much else was always going on.
The main thing I know is that anything is possible under any circumstances if you break it down into simple enough tasks. If something is giving you trouble, subdivide it even further. At some point each part becomes so trivial you can't help but suceed. That path is still open to you 😎
A project takes as long as it takes.
Example: Scott & i struggled with Frugel-Horn Mk2 (Scott mosyly -- at the design stage of the horns i am part of the feedback loop). Then FE126e was discontinued, FE126En came out, Scott had a flash were everything came together and 1st pass of FH3 popped out. Timing was good. Chris had the prototype and it was rejected in less than a week. Within days the next revision. Again proto build in days. Passed. This one turned out well beyond anything we could imagine. 1 year later, i estimate at least 100 builds, and 2 flat-pak makers with more pending. Somethin John could build on his kitchen table with masking tape and very few tools.
Take a failed project as an object lesson. When i was learning to ski, someone gave me this good advice: "if you arten't falling down you won't get any better"
If you feel like smashing adoor, chill, meditate, partake of some rastafarian sacrament, jump the GF or whatever calms you down.
dave
Example: Scott & i struggled with Frugel-Horn Mk2 (Scott mosyly -- at the design stage of the horns i am part of the feedback loop). Then FE126e was discontinued, FE126En came out, Scott had a flash were everything came together and 1st pass of FH3 popped out. Timing was good. Chris had the prototype and it was rejected in less than a week. Within days the next revision. Again proto build in days. Passed. This one turned out well beyond anything we could imagine. 1 year later, i estimate at least 100 builds, and 2 flat-pak makers with more pending. Somethin John could build on his kitchen table with masking tape and very few tools.
Take a failed project as an object lesson. When i was learning to ski, someone gave me this good advice: "if you arten't falling down you won't get any better"
If you feel like smashing adoor, chill, meditate, partake of some rastafarian sacrament, jump the GF or whatever calms you down.
dave
^good advice.
My two pence, is to keep it simple even if it's your second or third build. Keep it as simple as possible and plan every step and every nook and cranny of the build before beginning (you will still hit unexpected things but they will be minor instead of fatal (hopefully)).
And remember that getting a professional-ish finish will take a lot more effort than you think, sometimes more than the rest of the build. So consider if you can somehow do something else or take a short-cut, like wallpaper or go for a rougher, patina look etc.
My two pence, is to keep it simple even if it's your second or third build. Keep it as simple as possible and plan every step and every nook and cranny of the build before beginning (you will still hit unexpected things but they will be minor instead of fatal (hopefully)).
And remember that getting a professional-ish finish will take a lot more effort than you think, sometimes more than the rest of the build. So consider if you can somehow do something else or take a short-cut, like wallpaper or go for a rougher, patina look etc.
Hey. Wonderful wonderful feedbacks. Loving what you are saying and agree 100%. I was half afraid these were only issues for me 🙂
The heat and the budget things are GOLDEN. I didn't think of them while typing my rant (it was a spur of the moment thing) but they were definitely part of the problem.
I will also "dumb things down" as squeak said, so that every step is simple enough that it's very hard to screw up. After this i will focus more on enjoying the ride than the destination.
This forum suddendly gained 100% more awesomeness.
/Karmik out
The heat and the budget things are GOLDEN. I didn't think of them while typing my rant (it was a spur of the moment thing) but they were definitely part of the problem.
I will also "dumb things down" as squeak said, so that every step is simple enough that it's very hard to screw up. After this i will focus more on enjoying the ride than the destination.
This forum suddendly gained 100% more awesomeness.
/Karmik out
Awwwww.....that must suck to destroy something like that... 🙂 I sometimes feel like chucking and smashing stuff, but at the moment I just can't bring myself to totally wreck something I've spent a while on...I hope I don't get to that stage, but I can understand with the way life and work and everything else can just get to you, and then some stupid little thing in your project just won't "work" :'(
Just think, if it isn't working and you really don't want to continue with it, think about how you can scavenge it or use it in a fun, simple, little build of something or other...at least it will get used, and you will still feel good about it! 🙂
I guess I'm lucky my build hasn't really started for 2 years...enough time for all the guys here and on the PE forum to help make things easier, and for me to see that something is just going to cause problems eventually. Saying that, I've started more than enough "ideas" that became annoying and difficult to continue with 😉
Good luck with any future projects of yours, Karmik...whatever field they may be in... 🙂
Just think, if it isn't working and you really don't want to continue with it, think about how you can scavenge it or use it in a fun, simple, little build of something or other...at least it will get used, and you will still feel good about it! 🙂
I guess I'm lucky my build hasn't really started for 2 years...enough time for all the guys here and on the PE forum to help make things easier, and for me to see that something is just going to cause problems eventually. Saying that, I've started more than enough "ideas" that became annoying and difficult to continue with 😉
Good luck with any future projects of yours, Karmik...whatever field they may be in... 🙂
When i will talk to my family again, i may recycle the BR enclosures with a pair of cheap fullrangers and make a gift for my brother, he needs to be schooled on what Hi-Fi is. He listens out of a 2.1 "Surround" all-plastic system from logitech or Trust.
But at the moment, they're in pretty bad shape. Back panel is ripped out and brass plugs wrecked the side walls coming out so there is a mess of splinters and plug holes on the left and right panel.
Most of the circuitry is probably reusable. It will be a while before i will look into it tho 😛
But at the moment, they're in pretty bad shape. Back panel is ripped out and brass plugs wrecked the side walls coming out so there is a mess of splinters and plug holes on the left and right panel.
Most of the circuitry is probably reusable. It will be a while before i will look into it tho 😛
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🙂
Sometimes nothing works! The next time, everything works. Last weekend, NOTHING worked, my lovely amp turned into a slag pile of short circuits. My self esteem with it. I'm very relieved to read your story ...
Let's see what happens next weekend!
Sometimes nothing works! The next time, everything works. Last weekend, NOTHING worked, my lovely amp turned into a slag pile of short circuits. My self esteem with it. I'm very relieved to read your story ...
Let's see what happens next weekend!
On electronics i can speak from experience. When nothing works just push away the table, let the solder paste fumes dissipate from your head and wait 12-24 hours, then start from scratch. I don't have this emotional problem with electronics as i can work with them at my place 🙂
Good luck with your amp! what amp is it?
Good luck with your amp! what amp is it?
Spent two years experimenting and finalising an OB design, when you try and work to a schedule, I find you end up rushing things and end up not happy with the result.
Agree with costings, hidden costs are huge compared to cost of wood, quite often.
Agree with costings, hidden costs are huge compared to cost of wood, quite often.
You need catharsis. Have a bonfire and give them a Viking funeral. Drink beer, watch them burn and celebrate what you've learned. Then you can start afresh with even more elaborate plans, proving you've learnt nothing. Hey, it works for me! 😀
Hehe. I started thinking about my speaker project in 2003. I think I purchased the drivers in 2004. Built a prototype cab shortly after. Half built the final cabs in 2005, finished the cabinets in 2010, and now I'm working on a new revision of the crossovers.
During that time I put a screwdriver through the surround of one of the midbass' dropped a tweeter, made numerous minor stuff ups. Tried to apply veneer in 35 degree heat (the glue was already half dry by the time I clamped it, luckily it is still in place), but because I worked on it when I could it hasn't been too bad. I'm still not 100% happy with them, but for their primary use (HT) I'm more than happy.
What I found was when things went wrong, the best thing was to give it a rest. I'm not suggesting that a 5 year rest is advisable 😉 but a bit of time away often leads to a new idea on how to solve the problem.
Tony.
During that time I put a screwdriver through the surround of one of the midbass' dropped a tweeter, made numerous minor stuff ups. Tried to apply veneer in 35 degree heat (the glue was already half dry by the time I clamped it, luckily it is still in place), but because I worked on it when I could it hasn't been too bad. I'm still not 100% happy with them, but for their primary use (HT) I'm more than happy.
What I found was when things went wrong, the best thing was to give it a rest. I'm not suggesting that a 5 year rest is advisable 😉 but a bit of time away often leads to a new idea on how to solve the problem.
Tony.
🙂 thanks
It's a 41Hz Amp4. I've built them before, but this one is A) customized, B) done on a deadline 🙂 ... started going too fast and got into a tangle.
Upside Downside
________ ________
Got some $$ Got no time
Got time Got no $$
Got inclination Weather = wet/cold/hot
Weather = sunny and 68 deg Rather drink beer (upside?)
Bought all the stuff Still need 20 trips to store
20 extra trips to store accomplished Oops 3 more trips
Mail order Co. has transistors But not the capacitors
Mail order Co. has the capacitors But not the transistors
And so on..... And so on......
Best thing to do is take it slow. just do what you can when you can and your project will take shape eventually. My biggest problem stems from lack of quality tools. Wife and I joke that by the time I get a workshop built I'll be too old to use it. This is meant to be fun, so don't beat yourself up too badly. Enjoy.
Cheers
Terry
________ ________
Got some $$ Got no time
Got time Got no $$
Got inclination Weather = wet/cold/hot
Weather = sunny and 68 deg Rather drink beer (upside?)
Bought all the stuff Still need 20 trips to store
20 extra trips to store accomplished Oops 3 more trips
Mail order Co. has transistors But not the capacitors
Mail order Co. has the capacitors But not the transistors
And so on..... And so on......
Best thing to do is take it slow. just do what you can when you can and your project will take shape eventually. My biggest problem stems from lack of quality tools. Wife and I joke that by the time I get a workshop built I'll be too old to use it. This is meant to be fun, so don't beat yourself up too badly. Enjoy.
Cheers
Terry
What I do for my builds is to order the panels cut exactly to size, including the round speaker holes. Possibly including angles on the thin sides of the panels when it's for a horn speaker. I've a local wood supplier who can do all this nicely precisely for reasonable extra cost (and I don't have to invest in quality tooling).
For me it's then only a matter of glueing it all together, a fairly relaxing activity.
I suggest Karmik to investigate this approach for any future project.
And indeed, leave schedules out of it.
For me it's then only a matter of glueing it all together, a fairly relaxing activity.
I suggest Karmik to investigate this approach for any future project.
And indeed, leave schedules out of it.
Great thread. I think about half of motivation for tinkering with DIY audio is the learning experience. Not so much learning about audio as it is about learning about learning and learning about project management, self motivation etc
Regards /Bo
Regards /Bo
Karmik: brave and generous of you to share your storey. I imagine we have all have our share of failed projects most of which go untold for shame sake. I have had many of my own some which were major life changers. Finding the lessons and understanding the issues of a failing project are the gift your project has to give you. It feels like the original hard knock school but those lessons are the best. Keep up the good fight but take a rest when you need to and turn to your friends (close and distant) in person or on line. Ask for help or those who can and would be happy to help cannot provide it. I have found asking the hardest of all to do but the most rewarding when you do (for so many reasons). Best regards Moray James.
An italian investor, known for funding startups, setting them up with a solid management and selling them when they're up and functional, once was asked the reason of his 100% success rate in starting up businesses.
He said the only reason everybody thinks he had a 100% success rate was that nobody remembered his endless stream of utter failures at the start of his career. It was his belief that success comes with learning from *lots* and *lots* of failure.
As i said in the other thread, i'm currently relocating to the south of the country after summer and i don't have time to give you the attention and contribution you people deserve. See you later tonight or tomorrow 🙂
He said the only reason everybody thinks he had a 100% success rate was that nobody remembered his endless stream of utter failures at the start of his career. It was his belief that success comes with learning from *lots* and *lots* of failure.
As i said in the other thread, i'm currently relocating to the south of the country after summer and i don't have time to give you the attention and contribution you people deserve. See you later tonight or tomorrow 🙂
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