Trying to decide on what to build next. I’m thrilled with the Piccolos I built, but need to move them to another room and build something else for my music listening room. It’s small, only 11’x 12’, and has thick carpet. The Piccolos sound great, but I’m ready to have something a little larger to replace them.
I’ve narrowed it down to either Paul Carmody’s Carrera or Jeff Bagby’s Adelphos. They both fit the bill just right in terms of physical size, power expectations, and cost. And both use high quality drivers with crossovers and tuning done by expert designers.
I listen to classical music and opera. Not much of anything else. So what is really important to me is low distortion and dynamic range. Particularly the later. Some people think that it doesn’t matter what kind of music you listen to, but I think it does. A Mahler symphony requires far more dynamic range than a jazz ensemble or singer. And the speaker must be able to deliver it in order to enjoy the music.
The other thing I'm looking for is to get as large a sound stage as possible. Not sure that there will be much of difference between these two, but would be interested to know.
I think either of these speakers will perform very well with classical music, but am still looking for some reason to choose on over the other. Would appreciate any useful comments. Particularly from someone has heard these and has an informed opinion.
I’ve narrowed it down to either Paul Carmody’s Carrera or Jeff Bagby’s Adelphos. They both fit the bill just right in terms of physical size, power expectations, and cost. And both use high quality drivers with crossovers and tuning done by expert designers.
I listen to classical music and opera. Not much of anything else. So what is really important to me is low distortion and dynamic range. Particularly the later. Some people think that it doesn’t matter what kind of music you listen to, but I think it does. A Mahler symphony requires far more dynamic range than a jazz ensemble or singer. And the speaker must be able to deliver it in order to enjoy the music.
The other thing I'm looking for is to get as large a sound stage as possible. Not sure that there will be much of difference between these two, but would be interested to know.
I think either of these speakers will perform very well with classical music, but am still looking for some reason to choose on over the other. Would appreciate any useful comments. Particularly from someone has heard these and has an informed opinion.
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classicalfan,
Since you are into symphonic music, have you considered speakers that have larger cone area?
There is a saying - "There is no replacement for displacement" - a larger woofer can move more air effortlessly, and sound bigger.
For starters maybe take a look at something like the "Travelers" design by Curt Campbell?
Since you are into symphonic music, have you considered speakers that have larger cone area?
There is a saying - "There is no replacement for displacement" - a larger woofer can move more air effortlessly, and sound bigger.
For starters maybe take a look at something like the "Travelers" design by Curt Campbell?
Yeah, I did look at the Travelers. A little bit too big visually for me. Front surface area is over twice that of either of these two speakers. It's a small room and I sit fairly close. I want speakers that sort of go away visually as much as possible. Also these have a white ceramic midrange and again that would be annoying to me visually. But thanks for the suggestion.
According to the Meniscus Audio site there is a "black aluminum" version also as a choice of mid-bass for the Travelers. Some speaker grill cloth can even take care of the visual distraction of the white mid-bass.🙂
However, none of these will be able to reduce the size of the cabinet. In my experience, smaller speakers that have good bass extension tend to have lower sensitivity (no surprises, Hoffman's Iron Law); and can sound less dynamic / effortless vs speakers with larger cone area (and similar excursion capability).
Another "compact" design you can take a look at is the Selah Audio "Purezza". It is based on the Purifi PTT6.5 mid-woofer and got a good review from Erin's Audio Corner. The Purifi mid-woofer uses some innovations that allow it to have long throw and lower distortion - this should allow for better dynamics with a suitable amplifier.
However, none of these will be able to reduce the size of the cabinet. In my experience, smaller speakers that have good bass extension tend to have lower sensitivity (no surprises, Hoffman's Iron Law); and can sound less dynamic / effortless vs speakers with larger cone area (and similar excursion capability).
Another "compact" design you can take a look at is the Selah Audio "Purezza". It is based on the Purifi PTT6.5 mid-woofer and got a good review from Erin's Audio Corner. The Purifi mid-woofer uses some innovations that allow it to have long throw and lower distortion - this should allow for better dynamics with a suitable amplifier.
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they are limited in the bass compared to the Kairos, but they are only about 2 dB less sensitive, that's not a huge difference that stands out. I switch between them often, so I am pretty familiar with the comparison. They certainly benefit from having subwoofer if you want bass below 60 Hz though.
I saw the option for the black midrange, but I'm not sure how much that might affect the sound. It's an entirely different driver. Not just a different color. And the cabinet is just too big anyhow.
I did look at the Selah Purezza and I'm sure it sounds great. But at almost twice the price of either of these other two I pretty much ruled it out. These two are under $800 for either kit and that's about where I want to stay. At least for now.
I've already spent a lot of time looking at just about every DIY option in this performance and price range. Have a large Excel spreadsheet with lots of models and specs. The Carrera and Adelphos keep coming out on top of everything else for what I want. Need to decide between those two, which is why I'm looking for opinions on them.
I did look at the Selah Purezza and I'm sure it sounds great. But at almost twice the price of either of these other two I pretty much ruled it out. These two are under $800 for either kit and that's about where I want to stay. At least for now.
I've already spent a lot of time looking at just about every DIY option in this performance and price range. Have a large Excel spreadsheet with lots of models and specs. The Carrera and Adelphos keep coming out on top of everything else for what I want. Need to decide between those two, which is why I'm looking for opinions on them.
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I’m with Zman01 on this, if possible, I’d find a three way for classical, especially opera as they tend to provide a better mid range which is where the vocals sit and moves the crossover points outside both the vocal range and also the hearing sensitivity peak.
Also agree with looking for higher sensitivity which will increase dynamics.
I think you asked quite a while ago about Troels SBA761, did you go any further with this. Floor standers take up no more space than a bookshelf on a stand. His Atiri would do the job you ask (low distortion with high dynamics) but I suspect it is well out of budget.
There is a number of designs using the Purifi 6.5 mid woofer on this site, the bookshelf transmission line design by XRK May also fit the bill nicely, iirc he has a number of tweeter options from the Dayton 28 through to Raal ribbons.
On the black option of the Traveller, the CAC line is basically a NBAC aluminium cone with a very thin ceramic layer deposited onto it, I suspect the sound difference is fairly small but probably still audible.
Also agree with looking for higher sensitivity which will increase dynamics.
I think you asked quite a while ago about Troels SBA761, did you go any further with this. Floor standers take up no more space than a bookshelf on a stand. His Atiri would do the job you ask (low distortion with high dynamics) but I suspect it is well out of budget.
There is a number of designs using the Purifi 6.5 mid woofer on this site, the bookshelf transmission line design by XRK May also fit the bill nicely, iirc he has a number of tweeter options from the Dayton 28 through to Raal ribbons.
On the black option of the Traveller, the CAC line is basically a NBAC aluminium cone with a very thin ceramic layer deposited onto it, I suspect the sound difference is fairly small but probably still audible.
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You have a good memory. I did talk about the SBA761 a while ago. But have since decided to go with something smaller in front surface area. I know that will somewhat compromise the sound that can be achieved, but the visual is important to me as well. If the presence of the speakers is annoying to me then I won't be able to enjoy the music anyhow.
I've also been thinking of some of the open baffle designs that sit low on the floor, only 2 feet or less tall, using full range drivers like the ones from Lii Audio. Also considered the Manzanitas, but they again have a large front surface area. Plus OB is whole new ball game and I'm still not quite ready to try it.
As I said at the start, I'm really pleased with the Piccolos and just want something is a little larger with a little bigger sound. I think the two I've asked about can do it. Need to decide between them.
Also need to go to bed now. It's almost 1:00 am here.
I've also been thinking of some of the open baffle designs that sit low on the floor, only 2 feet or less tall, using full range drivers like the ones from Lii Audio. Also considered the Manzanitas, but they again have a large front surface area. Plus OB is whole new ball game and I'm still not quite ready to try it.
As I said at the start, I'm really pleased with the Piccolos and just want something is a little larger with a little bigger sound. I think the two I've asked about can do it. Need to decide between them.
Also need to go to bed now. It's almost 1:00 am here.
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I might miss something here but, you want to replace your 2x5.25" speaker with a 1x6.5" to get more dynamic headroom?
If that is the case youll likely get less headroom. (Just compare vd for 2x5.25" and 1x6.5)
My solution for you situation would be to build 2-4 10" subwoofers and perhaps a new 4liter cabinet for the piccolos.
Then you have a sound you really like, significally increasead headroom, reduced distorsion and addictive bass quality especially if you choose closed enclosures and use peq to correct the frequency
If that is the case youll likely get less headroom. (Just compare vd for 2x5.25" and 1x6.5)
My solution for you situation would be to build 2-4 10" subwoofers and perhaps a new 4liter cabinet for the piccolos.
Then you have a sound you really like, significally increasead headroom, reduced distorsion and addictive bass quality especially if you choose closed enclosures and use peq to correct the frequency
As others have recommended, for the best sound you need a 3-way speaker with a sealed midrange and a sealed woofer.
A Man with a Plan.... Build a tall floor standing cabinet which can support the ported and sealed Adelphos kit, and also has enough internal volume to support a 10" SB29NRX75-6 (1.5cuft) or 12" SB34NRX75-6 (2.5cuft) woofer on the side of the cabinet.
The Adelphos is 8.5" wide and "at least" 15" tall and 11.5" deep". Construct a floor standing cabinet which is 8.5" wide, 45" high -to support a 38" ear level tweeter-, and either 13" deep to support a side mounted 10" woofer, or 15" deep to support a side mounted 12" woofer ... as documented by Jeff Bagby.
The steep crossover on the Adelphos delivers good phase response with a flat front baffle.
A Man with a Plan.... Build a tall floor standing cabinet which can support the ported and sealed Adelphos kit, and also has enough internal volume to support a 10" SB29NRX75-6 (1.5cuft) or 12" SB34NRX75-6 (2.5cuft) woofer on the side of the cabinet.
The Adelphos is 8.5" wide and "at least" 15" tall and 11.5" deep". Construct a floor standing cabinet which is 8.5" wide, 45" high -to support a 38" ear level tweeter-, and either 13" deep to support a side mounted 10" woofer, or 15" deep to support a side mounted 12" woofer ... as documented by Jeff Bagby.
The steep crossover on the Adelphos delivers good phase response with a flat front baffle.
I have the same exact size room and Jeff Bagby's revolution are satisfying and loud enough.
It uses the Satori driver, which is great and you can upgrade to the beryllium tweeter later.
They have the satori midwoofer similar to the adelphos but a passive radiator to extend the bass even lower cleanly
They have the Jeff Bagby signature crossover which you already heard and love.
Anything better would be Bagby's Helios which was helluva impressive for me for any genre in this room or larger spaces.
Anything better would either have larger woofers but wont be as satisfying in the highs (unless you use beryllium compression drivers) or 3 ways which are a mite difficult to fit in the room.
It uses the Satori driver, which is great and you can upgrade to the beryllium tweeter later.
They have the satori midwoofer similar to the adelphos but a passive radiator to extend the bass even lower cleanly
They have the Jeff Bagby signature crossover which you already heard and love.
Anything better would be Bagby's Helios which was helluva impressive for me for any genre in this room or larger spaces.
Anything better would either have larger woofers but wont be as satisfying in the highs (unless you use beryllium compression drivers) or 3 ways which are a mite difficult to fit in the room.
this is a really cool design, but after Rick Craig's (RIP) death is it still possible to buy them?
My current Piccolo speakers only have a single 5.25" midwoofer each Not two of them. So I will actually be gaining more vd with either of these new choices.
Yeah, I've been thinking along similar lines, but doing it in two pieces similar to Jeff's Kairos with a separate bass cabinet. Still though the overall height is a visual issue for me and 45" is way too high. I listen in a lounge chair and usually have it pushed back, so my ears are only about 34" off the floor. (And that's only until I fall asleep with my head falling to the side and then they are only at about 31". 🙂)
Glad to hear you like the crossover in the Adelphos.
I looked at the Revolutions, but am willing to go up some more in price to get something a little larger. Not too much more, but some. But not all the way up to the Helios at $1800 per pair.
So the Carrera and Adelphos seem to hit right in that sweet spot for me. Really just need to decide between the two.
Wolf,
I've got the Mandolin in my matrix and have looked at it. It's exactly the same size as the Adelphos, but uses SB drivers instead of Satori drivers. I'm willing to go the extra money to get what I'm expecting to be better sound quality. Don't know if that is really going to be the case or not, but I'm willing to try it.
Don't know exactly what you mean by "short towers". Any examples?
I've got the Mandolin in my matrix and have looked at it. It's exactly the same size as the Adelphos, but uses SB drivers instead of Satori drivers. I'm willing to go the extra money to get what I'm expecting to be better sound quality. Don't know if that is really going to be the case or not, but I'm willing to try it.
Don't know exactly what you mean by "short towers". Any examples?
Is the Philharmonic BMR monitor too big? I'd think it much more capable for classical music than a small 2-way. Also comes in kit form from Meniscus
I've looked at and it's a little bigger and more expensive than I would like, but not completely out of the question. My concern is the BMR midrange. It only cost $18 and I'm not sure if I can trust the sound quality from it.
On the other hand Dennis Murphy sure knows what he is doing when it comes to classical music. He perform it with a major symphony orchestra.
So maybe this is worth another look and being added to the list.
On the other hand Dennis Murphy sure knows what he is doing when it comes to classical music. He perform it with a major symphony orchestra.
So maybe this is worth another look and being added to the list.