I was bored one day, so, I emailed Tonikns audio (A local copmapy specializing in car audio)
Heres what I said..
> I am looking for a system to accuratly reproduce all types of music,
> covering the whole audiable audio spectrum if possible. Probably from
> 20-20000Hz if possible... I am looking for a full package including
> headunit, subs, 6X9s and whatever else I would need.. What can you
> reccomend? Thanx
They replied
Mr Skinnyboy,
for us to provide you with an audio system to recreate the entire audio
spectrum we will need to get some more information from you. ie:
Vehicle
Budget
What can be modified
etc.
etc.
I replied.... (something along the lines of...)
I don't really want to buy a system, all your gear is too expensive, I know its quality, but whats the difference between your Eclipse 4 X 85watt RMS amp for $800, and the 4 X 100watt RMS Response amp for $450...
Also, It isn't physically possible to correctly reproduce all the way down to 20Hz in a car...
They replied...
Mr. skinnyboy,
the reason that you would buy an eclipse product over a response is the same
reason why you would buy a Ferrari over an excell. Sure they'll both do the
job, but you can guarantee that one is going to do it a hell of a lot better
than the other. At the end of the day you only get what you pay for.
As far as 20Hz is concerned, we have an expensive piece of testing equipment
called an 'RTA' or 'Real Time Analyser' that's specific use in life is to
test a system for frequency response from 20 to 20000Hz. I can assure you
that it is very much an achievable objective with quality audio systems. The
quality brands that I refer to are Alpine and Eclipse (and some others),
however not being all that familiar with the response brand this may not be
the case.
I hope that this has cleared up some of your issues.
Heres what I said..
> I am looking for a system to accuratly reproduce all types of music,
> covering the whole audiable audio spectrum if possible. Probably from
> 20-20000Hz if possible... I am looking for a full package including
> headunit, subs, 6X9s and whatever else I would need.. What can you
> reccomend? Thanx
They replied
Mr Skinnyboy,
for us to provide you with an audio system to recreate the entire audio
spectrum we will need to get some more information from you. ie:
Vehicle
Budget
What can be modified
etc.
etc.
I replied.... (something along the lines of...)
I don't really want to buy a system, all your gear is too expensive, I know its quality, but whats the difference between your Eclipse 4 X 85watt RMS amp for $800, and the 4 X 100watt RMS Response amp for $450...
Also, It isn't physically possible to correctly reproduce all the way down to 20Hz in a car...
They replied...
Mr. skinnyboy,
the reason that you would buy an eclipse product over a response is the same
reason why you would buy a Ferrari over an excell. Sure they'll both do the
job, but you can guarantee that one is going to do it a hell of a lot better
than the other. At the end of the day you only get what you pay for.
As far as 20Hz is concerned, we have an expensive piece of testing equipment
called an 'RTA' or 'Real Time Analyser' that's specific use in life is to
test a system for frequency response from 20 to 20000Hz. I can assure you
that it is very much an achievable objective with quality audio systems. The
quality brands that I refer to are Alpine and Eclipse (and some others),
however not being all that familiar with the response brand this may not be
the case.
I hope that this has cleared up some of your issues.
The difference between a Ferrari and an Excel is that at the end of the day, the Ferarri salesman is much richer. Besides, I think he went a little overboard with his analogy. It's more like a Ferrari vs. a Corvette. Since when does an Excel have better performance stats than a Ferrari? (85x4 vs 100x4???)
My forays (and still is) into car audio has taught me a few things, amongst them is to take amplifier ratings with a grain (or two) of salt. I have seen the Re/sponse loudspeakers and amps, but have yet the honour to hear them. But a 4 x 100W (400W total) continuous RMS rating is no joke, it is far TOO high for $400+. A realistic rating for a 4 channel car amp may be: 4 x 50W into 4 ohms, 0.1% THD at 20Hz-20kHz, plus minus 3dB...... I have never seen a car 4 channel amp rated (realisticly) more than 4 x 50W. This may be due to the thermal dissipation limitation of the package.
The acid test is to ask the dealer to open up the bowels of the amp to you. That way, you can check the number and type of output devices, SMPS etc. I have done this at a local dealer and you'll be surprised what you'll find. I guess the saying "Good things don't come cheap" is true, at least 90% of the time.
The acid test is to ask the dealer to open up the bowels of the amp to you. That way, you can check the number and type of output devices, SMPS etc. I have done this at a local dealer and you'll be surprised what you'll find. I guess the saying "Good things don't come cheap" is true, at least 90% of the time.
Perhaps I will buy a Re/Sponse amplifier and test it?
http://www1.jaycar.com.au/productVi...xxx&pageNumber=&priceMin=&priceMax=&SUBCATID=
I believe them anyway.. lol
http://www1.jaycar.com.au/productVi...xxx&pageNumber=&priceMin=&priceMax=&SUBCATID=
I believe them anyway..
lolAn externally hosted image should be here but it was not working when we last tested it.
An externally hosted image should be here but it was not working when we last tested it.
What I remember from my car-fi days was this-
Halving the impedence should double the output while keeping low distortion. That philosophy may have changed, but it's how we used to judge an amps true output capabilities. At the time (early/mid '90's) Pheonix Gold, Fosgate and a handful of others were great at this sort of thing. I've no idea how they stack up now. I seem to recall Orion having amps that could run at 1/8 ohms all day without getting hot. Try that with an over-rated inexpensive amp and it'll fry in seconds.
I've done A/B comparisons with products like old Fosgate Punch amps rated at 25X2 rms vs Profile 300X2 rms. The results speak for themselves. Better control over the cone, better sound quality, lower audible distortion from the old Fosgate.
All watts are not created equal (in brochures)
Halving the impedence should double the output while keeping low distortion. That philosophy may have changed, but it's how we used to judge an amps true output capabilities. At the time (early/mid '90's) Pheonix Gold, Fosgate and a handful of others were great at this sort of thing. I've no idea how they stack up now. I seem to recall Orion having amps that could run at 1/8 ohms all day without getting hot. Try that with an over-rated inexpensive amp and it'll fry in seconds.
I've done A/B comparisons with products like old Fosgate Punch amps rated at 25X2 rms vs Profile 300X2 rms. The results speak for themselves. Better control over the cone, better sound quality, lower audible distortion from the old Fosgate.
All watts are not created equal (in brochures)
I have to agree with everything tonkins says. It is actually easier to achieve 20hz-20khz in a car than in a room if your budget is limited. Admittedly, damping is a huge factor and it is MUCH easier to achieve this if windows are open fully. This is not allowable in autosound competitions. For a total of $650 I purchased a jvc deck, an esx amplifier, a soundstream amp, 2 jbl gt1200's, and a full set of polk db midranges. I built an extended bass shelf ported box set with the rolloff accordingly to match the cabin gain characteristics of the car (I was lucky enough to be able to use an MKII (?) subwoofer that my dad has. it's 2 10's in an 11in^3 box that is equalized and has a 2700 watt amp.
Now I haven't had this thing tested with an RTA but As far as I can tell it sounds almost exactly like my dad's NHT 2.3's, which are + or - 2db from 20hz-20khz. These are 2000 dollar speakers, and just about the best one's you can get for that price!
The car will play this accurately and evenly at 135db (guestimate on the volume, but it sure hurt my ears). My father's speakers only do this to 110db, measured on a db meter that goes up to 130 db. The db meter was maxxed in the car. Subsonic frequencies clicked the meter to the max as well, and can be heard because of the distortion they cause in the ambient noise (sounds like everything gets quiet.) I synthed a 5hz tone and played it, and smoke shakes ~1.5 inches at the loudest volume, measured with a ruler in the drivers and passenger's seats. Accidentaly played it in the garage once and almost all the pictures in the house fell off the walls.
Windows rolled up = different story entirely. subsonic frequencies can barely be felt, cabin resonances in many different flavors, Shrilly reflections off the glass.
Designing a car audio system has more to do with "building around the car". Placement of speakers is a tough thing to do if you have the wrong car. Also, van's and many suv's are much too boxy and contain many panels of poor resonance.
Now I haven't had this thing tested with an RTA but As far as I can tell it sounds almost exactly like my dad's NHT 2.3's, which are + or - 2db from 20hz-20khz. These are 2000 dollar speakers, and just about the best one's you can get for that price!
The car will play this accurately and evenly at 135db (guestimate on the volume, but it sure hurt my ears). My father's speakers only do this to 110db, measured on a db meter that goes up to 130 db. The db meter was maxxed in the car. Subsonic frequencies clicked the meter to the max as well, and can be heard because of the distortion they cause in the ambient noise (sounds like everything gets quiet.) I synthed a 5hz tone and played it, and smoke shakes ~1.5 inches at the loudest volume, measured with a ruler in the drivers and passenger's seats. Accidentaly played it in the garage once and almost all the pictures in the house fell off the walls.
Windows rolled up = different story entirely. subsonic frequencies can barely be felt, cabin resonances in many different flavors, Shrilly reflections off the glass.
Designing a car audio system has more to do with "building around the car". Placement of speakers is a tough thing to do if you have the wrong car. Also, van's and many suv's are much too boxy and contain many panels of poor resonance.
The car audio market is dominated by people that want something for their car soon. They don't know anything about audio and look at the watt's only and not distortion, signal to noise ratio, frequency response, etc. I've seen amps rated at .5% and more THD. Signal to noise ratio's of 50-80 are all too common on some of the cheapo brands.
That double power/half resistance thing still holds true for the most part, except some amps now have quality voltage regulators that can keep high output at high risistance. Another type of regulator in use guarantees a low output at 4 ohms, but allows huge output at lower resistance. This is for competition purposes (they only take the power of your amps at 4 ohms rms). The most extreme I've heard of is a 1x10 watts at 4 ohm and 16000watts rms at 1 ohm (not a typo). Most extreme I've seen is 15x2 watts at 4 ohm and something like 1400-1800 watts at 1 ohm.
That orion amp does 50x2 at 4 ohms, 800x2 at 1/4 ohm. It does get hot if you turn the volume up, but will play all day. Fosgate amps are usually stable at 1 ohm stereo, as are the sony mobile es line of amps. The better amps are stable to lower resistance in general on the car audio market (is this just true for amps in general?) I know my home reciever is stable at 1 ohm or less, but is intended for 4-8 ohm speakers (used it to test some car speakers.) and I run it at 2 ohms with no discernable loss in quality at low volumes and a large increase in output power.
By stability I mean that it will distort when volume is turned way (to the point of complete ugliness) up rather than cut out
That double power/half resistance thing still holds true for the most part, except some amps now have quality voltage regulators that can keep high output at high risistance. Another type of regulator in use guarantees a low output at 4 ohms, but allows huge output at lower resistance. This is for competition purposes (they only take the power of your amps at 4 ohms rms). The most extreme I've heard of is a 1x10 watts at 4 ohm and 16000watts rms at 1 ohm (not a typo). Most extreme I've seen is 15x2 watts at 4 ohm and something like 1400-1800 watts at 1 ohm.
That orion amp does 50x2 at 4 ohms, 800x2 at 1/4 ohm. It does get hot if you turn the volume up, but will play all day. Fosgate amps are usually stable at 1 ohm stereo, as are the sony mobile es line of amps. The better amps are stable to lower resistance in general on the car audio market (is this just true for amps in general?) I know my home reciever is stable at 1 ohm or less, but is intended for 4-8 ohm speakers (used it to test some car speakers.) and I run it at 2 ohms with no discernable loss in quality at low volumes and a large increase in output power.
By stability I mean that it will distort when volume is turned way (to the point of complete ugliness) up rather than cut out
Many of the amplifiers rated a 10x2 w rms @ 4 ohms are Class D/T
In the case of many competion setups loads genrally don't get much smaller than .5 or maybe .25 ohms at the smallest.
I've just finished (well the electronics part anyway... box is still under construction) my very own car amp.
I probly went overboard but.....
I used a combination of Rod elliots and Valve audios SMPS to create my PSU which gives out a fairly clean +-35 (about 40 at 13.8v- not tested yet) which with some TO-3's capable of 250w each will probly give out about 175w rms and draw a little over 60 amps from the battery.
Besides from cost factor (my amp being well under 500 bux cheaper than commercial ones) it honestly sounds alot better than any commercial "look its rated at Max power (10% THD)" amp whilst also being able to match it with the 'high end' of comsumer car audio.
When I finish the chassis I'll definatly post pics and exactly what I did to get it all working.
The word will hopefully spread round and more people will get into DIY car audio.
In the case of many competion setups loads genrally don't get much smaller than .5 or maybe .25 ohms at the smallest.
I've just finished (well the electronics part anyway... box is still under construction) my very own car amp.
I probly went overboard but.....
I used a combination of Rod elliots and Valve audios SMPS to create my PSU which gives out a fairly clean +-35 (about 40 at 13.8v- not tested yet) which with some TO-3's capable of 250w each will probly give out about 175w rms and draw a little over 60 amps from the battery.
Besides from cost factor (my amp being well under 500 bux cheaper than commercial ones) it honestly sounds alot better than any commercial "look its rated at Max power (10% THD)" amp whilst also being able to match it with the 'high end' of comsumer car audio.
When I finish the chassis I'll definatly post pics and exactly what I did to get it all working.
The word will hopefully spread round and more people will get into DIY car audio.
That's alot of amperes to be drawing from any automotive electrical system, but I'm sure you've taken steps to handle it.
The Orion in question was of the HCCA variety. A couple of Canadiens in a pick-up drove down to an IASCA event to test it out. They fried the alternator sitting in the parking lot doing sine sweeps from 100 down to 20hz showing off for the crowd. They were never able to make it to the SPL judging. They were running 12 pairs of 10's isobaric mounted off that single amp in the cab of the truck behind the bench seat. The output was truly impressive.
I ran 4 JL 10's off my Pheonix Gold MS275 at 1 ohm forever and never got it to heat up.
Good luck with your project, and definitely post pics when you get the chance.
The Orion in question was of the HCCA variety. A couple of Canadiens in a pick-up drove down to an IASCA event to test it out. They fried the alternator sitting in the parking lot doing sine sweeps from 100 down to 20hz showing off for the crowd. They were never able to make it to the SPL judging. They were running 12 pairs of 10's isobaric mounted off that single amp in the cab of the truck behind the bench seat. The output was truly impressive.
I ran 4 JL 10's off my Pheonix Gold MS275 at 1 ohm forever and never got it to heat up.
Good luck with your project, and definitely post pics when you get the chance.
The scary thing is its not my sub amp
I forgot to mention each amp uses dual P3A's running @ 175w rms (abouts.... need to get it measured).
I work for a jaycar retailer and they've just released thier new catalog which has some new sub's but no new amps. one being a 10 inch 250 W rms DVC (2x 1ohm) metal cone tank. I'm considering getting one to play with
TYpically stock alternators do about 60amps for little cars and up to about 120 if you own a V8 (and extremly lucky) but most competions won't let your run your engine whilst doing an SPL burp so its all battery.
Since where getting a little off topic....
If you compare the Response to the eclipse amps you'll probly find theres not alot of difference. Eclipse will give you some added feature (balanced inputs and watnot) but sonicly they bost take alot of measures to get a good sound.
fr0st said:
I work for a jaycar retailer and they've just released thier new catalog which has some new sub's but no new amps. one being a 10 inch 250 W rms DVC (2x 1ohm) metal cone tank. I'm considering getting one to play with
That sub costs $199 buy a Peerless 12inch XLS (8ohm) that costs $199 too...
And, the Jaycar one only has an X-Max of 10mm and if you ask me, it looks STUPID!!!! lol and it doesn't have a metal cone, it has a metal coated cone.. lolwould you really want that sub?? lol
good point lol
I've only been showed the new catalog... I havn't been to work since they got it so I don't have one yet.
Cone materials don't make the biggest of difference. Poly cones sound better IMO but I've never heard a decent set.
I think street machine (the mag) did a comparison between amps a while ago and thats how response got its reputation for value/quality.
fr0st said:
Hmm.. I see... so, how much cheaper can you get stuff from Jaycar?
I agree that the ReSponse stuff if value for money, but if you have to pay retail for the ReSponse, when you can get Peerless for trade, I'd go with peerless.... But, if I wanted it NOW!! I'd probably get ReSponse.. lol but for like a home I'd go with Peerless, even though I had to wait.. lol
This is the first time I have read a car audio thread and I must say that I am still unsure of the need of many hundreds if not thousands of watts . I know that in the audiophile community the objective is mainly quality and a even a high-powered sytem would be in the region of 2x200w which seems low in car audio today. I also see that car audio competitions are mainly about db's and bass output.
I can understand why people soup up their cars but I don't see how achieving 135db and deafness will increase musical enjoyment or is it just a matter of bragging rights?
I can understand why people soup up their cars but I don't see how achieving 135db and deafness will increase musical enjoyment or is it just a matter of bragging rights?
Yes, a lot of the car audio community doesn't know/care about quality. People just want a "system" for their car. These amps that put out 4x200 watts and such usually do what they say, but check out the S/N ratio and THD. I got a $60 dollar amp when I was 16 which was "400watts max" With my father being an audiophile I knew to look at the 70x2 watts rms. $60 was not bad for this amp, which sounded good at lower volumes. On par with my 80x2 Teac home stereo reciever I had at the time.
There are several reasons to get your car to play 135db. First, your stereo will be able to handle any musical score you throw at it with *very* little distortion at listening levels. Second, there are many road noises esp. on the highway; some people like thier music to be louder than the road noise. Third, you can use it like a boombox at the park, camping, etc. Lastly, Many lower tones "sound" better when you can feel them. Deafness? Not if you aren't in the car, or if you follow the dolby A weighting for just bass. I seem to remember seeing that you can listen to a 20hz tone at 60db higher than a 1khz, and 40hz something like 40db higher.
Lastly, I'd like to say that people want something they like. If you like to feel your bones vibrate to the music, so be it. I'll say it can be relaxing. However, most people don't know what a flat frequency response sounds like, and don't like it at first when they hear it. I have 3 friends that I've gotten to stop using the bass/treble controls, but all were opposed at first. The Loudness button can sound better depending on the system, but usually that should go too. I recommend that if you like your bass loud, simply turn your sub amp up a little bit. Many times, turning the bass down on your deck and the sub amp up will get you a lower and flatter response.
With the exception of the IASCA guys (forced, due to implementation of Real Time Analyzer testing) the great majority of car audio enthusiasts don't care much about a nice flat response. Many care about "clean sound" (not as many as I thought would) but clean sound and flat response are not the same.
Thousands of watts is ridiculous unless you want one of the things mentioned above. However, hundreds of watts can *sometimes* be necessary for distortion free music that plays slightly louder than your home stereo, enough to play over some road noise. Generally 50watts true rms is more than enough for midranges, even crossed at 60hz, but 100-200 is often needed if your sub goes lower than 30hz.
BTW I have seen and listened to some 4 channel amps realisticly rated at over 4x50 rms at 4 ohms, but the amps get huge. This seems strange to me because I have a 50x2 amp that is only 10x10x3, and puts out 428 watts (measured) RMS at 4 ohms bridged, .03%THD.
There are several reasons to get your car to play 135db. First, your stereo will be able to handle any musical score you throw at it with *very* little distortion at listening levels. Second, there are many road noises esp. on the highway; some people like thier music to be louder than the road noise. Third, you can use it like a boombox at the park, camping, etc. Lastly, Many lower tones "sound" better when you can feel them. Deafness? Not if you aren't in the car, or if you follow the dolby A weighting for just bass. I seem to remember seeing that you can listen to a 20hz tone at 60db higher than a 1khz, and 40hz something like 40db higher.
Lastly, I'd like to say that people want something they like. If you like to feel your bones vibrate to the music, so be it. I'll say it can be relaxing. However, most people don't know what a flat frequency response sounds like, and don't like it at first when they hear it. I have 3 friends that I've gotten to stop using the bass/treble controls, but all were opposed at first. The Loudness button can sound better depending on the system, but usually that should go too. I recommend that if you like your bass loud, simply turn your sub amp up a little bit. Many times, turning the bass down on your deck and the sub amp up will get you a lower and flatter response.
With the exception of the IASCA guys (forced, due to implementation of Real Time Analyzer testing) the great majority of car audio enthusiasts don't care much about a nice flat response. Many care about "clean sound" (not as many as I thought would) but clean sound and flat response are not the same.
Thousands of watts is ridiculous unless you want one of the things mentioned above. However, hundreds of watts can *sometimes* be necessary for distortion free music that plays slightly louder than your home stereo, enough to play over some road noise. Generally 50watts true rms is more than enough for midranges, even crossed at 60hz, but 100-200 is often needed if your sub goes lower than 30hz.
BTW I have seen and listened to some 4 channel amps realisticly rated at over 4x50 rms at 4 ohms, but the amps get huge. This seems strange to me because I have a 50x2 amp that is only 10x10x3, and puts out 428 watts (measured) RMS at 4 ohms bridged, .03%THD.
You always get a good feeling when you rock up to traffic lights at 140 db
Alot of people are tending to go towards sound quality setups rather than the doof doof most people are looking for. I was going for both.... only because I could though.
Making my amp was really a learning thing coz i've never made a smps before and it intrested me. A couple of weeks later (and about 10 different transformer windings) I had a fully working one that could handle 800w continuously... it makes sense to strap the biggest amps you can to it
My next amp will definately be in the kilowatts. This time for the spank factor of the whole thing but I enjoy it and thats what counts.
The single reason why spending an extra 100 bux on a headunit that has extra EQ settings is pointless. Also the reason I hate my brothers sony deck... he has rather expensive front splits and they sound harsh the all the EQ he puts on them.
Alot of people are tending to go towards sound quality setups rather than the doof doof most people are looking for. I was going for both.... only because I could though.
Making my amp was really a learning thing coz i've never made a smps before and it intrested me. A couple of weeks later (and about 10 different transformer windings) I had a fully working one that could handle 800w continuously... it makes sense to strap the biggest amps you can to it
My next amp will definately be in the kilowatts. This time for the spank factor of the whole thing but I enjoy it and thats what counts.
a VERY true statement
The single reason why spending an extra 100 bux on a headunit that has extra EQ settings is pointless. Also the reason I hate my brothers sony deck... he has rather expensive front splits and they sound harsh the all the EQ he puts on them.
no offence to all you KWat lovers, but have you ever did the calculation if a car can even deliver 1Kwat's or even more
now music power 1Kwat i can believe, but you guys dont even think that 500 ... 1500Wat RMS
lets make a little calculation here
Car alternator voltage = 15V max
Car amplifier = lets say it needs 1KW ( prolly 2 * 300W amp )
Wire resistance from batery to amp = 0.1 ohm ( this is practically way more )
sow , lets see
1000W / 15 V -> the current is therefore 66.6A
result 0.1 * 66.66 = 6.66V voltage drop over the cable
result 15 - 6.66 = 8.34V voltage on the amp side
result amp needs more amps to be able to deliver the 1Wat
result ... the voltage goes down on the amp side, ask more and more power from the battery ( or alternator ) and at the end the battery ( or alternator ) is delivering 0W to the amp and KWat's to the cable, in other words you will likely kill your car whitin day's
So, now all you guys would say , hey but i use havy cable's sow my resistance in the cables is lower ... wrong, you would never ever go beneed the 0.1E as in the example, and whe arent even talking about the internal resistance of the battery and the alternator, witch are mutch bigger.
So getting 500+ wats out of a car, just forget it
Now, i dont say that those power amps are bad, just dont expect that they will deliver 100W RMS per channel, becouse they dont, they perhaps could in lab-situations, but not in a car.
If you like it loud in a car, okey but then first search for 95dB+ sensitive speakers and buy yourself a very decent 50W amp, thats brings the max output to 112db/channel, in stereo that is 115dB, this kind of dB levels couses a lot of pain...
Greetz Rudy
now music power 1Kwat i can believe, but you guys dont even think that 500 ... 1500Wat RMS
lets make a little calculation here
Car alternator voltage = 15V max
Car amplifier = lets say it needs 1KW ( prolly 2 * 300W amp )
Wire resistance from batery to amp = 0.1 ohm ( this is practically way more )
sow , lets see
1000W / 15 V -> the current is therefore 66.6A
result 0.1 * 66.66 = 6.66V voltage drop over the cable
result 15 - 6.66 = 8.34V voltage on the amp side
result amp needs more amps to be able to deliver the 1Wat
result ... the voltage goes down on the amp side, ask more and more power from the battery ( or alternator ) and at the end the battery ( or alternator ) is delivering 0W to the amp and KWat's to the cable, in other words you will likely kill your car whitin day's
So, now all you guys would say , hey but i use havy cable's sow my resistance in the cables is lower ... wrong, you would never ever go beneed the 0.1E as in the example, and whe arent even talking about the internal resistance of the battery and the alternator, witch are mutch bigger.
So getting 500+ wats out of a car, just forget it
Now, i dont say that those power amps are bad, just dont expect that they will deliver 100W RMS per channel, becouse they dont, they perhaps could in lab-situations, but not in a car.
If you like it loud in a car, okey but then first search for 95dB+ sensitive speakers and buy yourself a very decent 50W amp, thats brings the max output to 112db/channel, in stereo that is 115dB, this kind of dB levels couses a lot of pain...
Greetz Rudy
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