Can you help me pick some crossovers for these speakers?

[v1001]

Can you help me pick some crossovers for these speakers?
I got in the mood for starting a project building some big 3 way speakers. After browsing around Madisound for hours I think I like these drivers. I don't really know a whole lot about all this but they looked like they would seem to line up pretty good with each other.

Not sure where to cross them over at. I guess 1000 Hz on the woofer or 800 better? The mid goes pretty far out, can I do 5000 Hz to the tweeter or should I stick with around 4000? I think I'd like to have a 3rd order crossover. Is that ok? I just want the basic crossovers for now. I can worry about adding anything else later if I really need to when I figure out a cabinet design.

One thing is, I really don't want to skimp on the crossovers. I want some of the best parts out there. Within reason at least. I'd like to buy them from madisound too so they need to be on there. Can you help me find the exact parts? Thanks!

https://www.madisoundspeakerstore.com/hard-dome-tweeter/accuton-c25-6-012-1-ceramic-dome-tweeter/

https://www.madisoundspeakerstore.com/approx-5-woofers/eton-5-200/a8-symphony-5-mid/bass/

https://www.madisoundspeakerstore.com/approx-11-woofers/eton-11-581/50-11-hexacone-woofer/

An externally hosted image should be here but it was not working when we last tested it.

An externally hosted image should be here but it was not working when we last tested it.

An externally hosted image should be here but it was not working when we last tested it.

 

[eriksquires]

Since you don't know anything about crossover design, I'd ask Madisound to design a crossover for you. Their prices are pretty reasonable and they have a pretty good range of parts available.

Otherwise, you'll have to start learning about what your are asking. For an introduction to crossovers, please read here.

That woofer is nice, but isn't really worthwhile unless it's in a vented box, and the cabinet size for that is around 2 cubic feet. Make sure that's what you want!

Call Madisound though. They're nice people and they'll be happy to help you put together a good sounding three way.

Best,


Erik

 

[jReave]

I personally enjoy designing xo's through simulations for other people but I hesitate to do so in your case because you're using some pretty expensive drivers and you want to therefore get the xo absolutely correct. To do that you need to take accurate measurements of your drivers in their cabinets after they have been thoroughly broken in. Using simulations only relies on the manufacturer's data which may or may not be correct.

So....

You could go the route of Eric's suggestion, but I have heard mixed things about Madison's design results.

Another option would be to try to find another local hobbiest who can help you take your own FR and impedance measurements in your cabinets before attempting the xo design. I'd try the Parts Express Forum for that as it has a higher percentage of American participants giving you a higher probability of success. But you should go through the simulation process first to help you design your cabinet and the driver positions and to make sure that your drivers want to play well together.

Or, you can build a proven design. For some outstanding top end 3- and 4-way speakers using Accuton, Audio Technology, ScanSpeak or Seas drivers and top notch xo components, have a look at these 2 sites:
Troels Gravesen
Humble Homemade Hifi

 

[eriksquires]

jWeave's comments are good ideas as well. My own experience is that I ended up paying for a design I couldn't use since the tweeters I spec'd weren't going to be in the US for months.

On the other hand, they do measure the actual drivers so if you really want to go custom, they're a good source.

Personally, I've never heard an Accuton driver that made me go spend a lot of money, by the way. I've not heard all of them, but, meh! I wonder if your budget and ears wouldn't be better served by an SB Acoustics, ScanSpeak or the cheaper but just as well made Vifa ring radiators.

If you want to get fabulous, step up to the Raal or Mundorf line source tweeters (ribbon and AMT respectively).

Best,

Erik

 

[v1001]

I was thinking about paying madisound to design them, but also worried they could screw it up, and trusted some of you guys more. Thought I should at least check in with you. Maybe get some incite at least. I'm not opposed to that route though.

I actually do like that idea to of just using some proven designs. I'll check out those links posted. Might be the best idea. Thanks.

I'm also not totally opposed to a different tweeter. I heard ceramic on the avalons though. And like that they are concave. Tight sweet spot but seems if you're in that sweet spot it's magic. At least that's what I got listening to the Avalons. It beams it right to your ear and seems very precise and very detailed, really pulling you into it.

I could also maybe just go with the 5" and maybe a metal dome from eton for now. They have what sounds like a nice tweeter on sale too. Keep it cheap and give my hand at it first before doing more. Using top of the line crossovers what kind of price do you think the crossovers would cost on just a two way like that? Probably leave out the L-pads or anything extra for now. Just basic crossovers for now until I build a cabinet. But probably just a standard size cabinet anyway.

I do have a question though. I've still been contemplating different drivers and surfing around madisound looking at specs before buying something. I try to think outside the box. And also want to keep as few components and less crossovers as possible. I noticed some of these newer ring tweeters appear to go very low for a tweeter and have huge frequency range. This scanspeak one seems to go very clean from 1000 hz. Is there some reason you couldn't use a big woofer and forgo the mid? Crossing over at 1000 hz? What exactly would be the draw back? I realize that typically you can pull off an 8" two way at most (and that's pushing it). But it seems that thinking started way back before these ring tweeters were around. Maybe nobody has just tried it yet with these newer tweeters? Or is it just not at all possible? Why can't it be done? To easy to blow out the tweeter?

https://www.madisoundspeakerstore.c...tor-r3004/6620-00-1-tweeter-black-face-plate/

If anyone thinks it can at all be pulled off I'd totally be willing to experiment with this tweeter and the eton 11" crossed over at 1000 hz. I guess it's one of those sounds to good to be true things though. If it's impossible to do I won't bother. But thought I'd ask. If there is a chance I'd love to have a go at it.

Sorry for all the questions. Just intriguing learning. And I like to try new things, and love experimenting to come up with doing things a different way. Maybe get lucky and find something special too.

 

[eriksquires]

You need to get a pair of $20 drivers and put them together into a working speaker before trying these my friend. You are asking for a lot more help than you realize you are, for free.

You would learn a lot more by buying $300 worth of software and learning to design a crossover than by buying $500 worth of drivers and hoping some one holds your hand all the way through.

Get OmniMic + Dats. Learn to measure the drivers. Put them in a cabinet, design a crossover via XSim. Build it. Listen to it. I suspect a lot more people would be willing to help you down this path.

Alternatives to OmniMic and DATS of course exist, but hey, if you are willing to blow that much on drivers, the software should be cheap.

Best,


Erik

 

[Lojzek]

I'm not sure how much sense would it make to buy over
one thousand dollars worth drivers, expensive XO parts,
not to mention cabinet and co. and then ask madisound
to simulate a filter for what, 50 bucks?

Hey, if that were true, then you wouldn't need a speaker
designer working for a speaker manufacturer. Or, maybe
I'm wrong and they actually build a test cabinet, perform
all the measurements and then simulate and tweak till it's
all done perfectly?

I am positive this forum contains all the necessary information
to build a succesful design, the problem is always the same.
It is scattered all over the place and the people is lazy to look
it up.

 

[jReave]

I'm with Lojzek, I don't think Madisound is going to give you in-cabinet measurements with broken in drivers and then a tweeked xo either. That's why I have misgivings.

Here's another link that does some high end speakers, kits and design services and in the States this time: Selah Audio

If you want to know how much xo's are going to cost, open up one of the links I gave you before, find a 2- or 3-way design with the xo components listed, then open up Madisound and start adding up the prices.

I've got to figure that you don't understand that a correct xo needs to be designed from the frequency and impedance responses of the drivers in-cabinet (preferably with measurements but also possible through simulations), which means that the dimensions of the cabinet and the positioning of the drivers on the front baffle make a big difference. So one can't design the xo 1st and then design the cabinet afterwards.

Simply forget about combining that tweeter with the a big woofer. Don't do it. You have to go 3-way.

 

[Lojzek]

I remember now jReave, I wanted to thank you for bringing
attention to FP Graph Tracer, which works pretty good if the
original picture has enough distinction between the lines
that matter an the ones that don't, otherwise it won't work.
Still, very helpful to my sore eyes.

 

[eriksquires]

So your complaint is based on the fact that Madisound doesn't charge enough, without any experience with their work?

In my experience Madisound does a very good job, and that $40 or $50 is well worth it, compared to some one just starting off, who is going to spend that much money on parts. Also, Madisound actually uses measured responses, not spec sheets.


Best,


Erik

I'm not sure how much sense would it make to buy over
one thousand dollars worth drivers, expensive XO parts,
not to mention cabinet and co. and then ask madisound
to simulate a filter for what, 50 bucks?

Hey, if that were true, then you wouldn't need a speaker
designer working for a speaker manufacturer. Or, maybe
I'm wrong and they actually build a test cabinet, perform
all the measurements and then simulate and tweak till it's
all done perfectly?

I am positive this forum contains all the necessary information
to build a succesful design, the problem is always the same.
It is scattered all over the place and the people is lazy to look
it up.

 

[jReave]

I remember now jReave, I wanted to thank you for bringing
attention to FP Graph Tracer, which works pretty good if the
original picture has enough distinction between the lines
that matter an the ones that don't, otherwise it won't work.
Still, very helpful to my sore eyes.

Yes, it doesn't work with every graph but most of the time it does. And it's such an improvement over the tediousness of SPLTrace. Such an improvement.

 

[sreten]

Hi,

Some advice :

Good speaker design is not buying expensive drivers and
then stumbling forward with no real idea what you are doing.

You need to know exactly what you are doing to effectively
deploy expensive drivers, and quite simply you don't, and
to be frank no forums are any real help when it comes to
the art of top end speaker designs.

But they are rather helpful in pointing out the obvious.

Walk before you can run. Expensive drivers are pointless
unless you can use them very effectively. Expensive x/o
components are useless in half baked x/o designs *.

YMMV but I'd suggest building either of the following :
Zaph|Audio - ZDT3.5
Speaker Project - ZDT 3.5 -- 8/23/2011
Or :
https://sites.google.com/site/undefinition/diy-sunflowers

Both are pretty daunting to a beginner, or a least should be, if
you understand what is needed to make a good job of the basics.

Build quality is critical to realise the performance capability of
the above designs, using mundane drivers and x/o components.

If you don't realise that, go nowhere near expensive drivers.

However, if you do a good job, you will be delighted by the results.
But to do a good job, you will need to learn / workout the details
of a lot of mundane basics. If you succeed then you can move on.

rgds, sreten.

* Madisound claim to use real drivers responses. But if they
don't ask for baffle dimensions and driver placement then
you will be always getting a flawed x/o, near but not right.
Nowhere near right for expensive speakers in free space.
Probably near right for AV speakers used near walls.