There seems to be two camps - those who insist on "objective" measurement and those who relies on "listening". Within this forum at least, both sides really haven't produced any evidence. Luckily there is Iconoclast cable. The designer has spent over 35 years designing cables for Belden. Now he has retired and worked mostly in audiophile grade audio cables. He has produced a few interesting articles regarding measurement and listening. See the link below.
To make a long story short, his conclusion is that, yes, there are measurements that can be performed that correspond to our listening but there are things that he is not able to measure. For example, different copper types do have their own sound characteristics but he is not able to come up with a test that he can measure as to why the differences.
As to those (including me and the designer himself) who criticize that cables are too expensive, well Iconoclast speaker cables are about $1400 to $2400 so they are not cheap. Maybe it's true that audio grade cables are not cheap to manufacture.
The Story of Iconoclast Cable
To make a long story short, his conclusion is that, yes, there are measurements that can be performed that correspond to our listening but there are things that he is not able to measure. For example, different copper types do have their own sound characteristics but he is not able to come up with a test that he can measure as to why the differences.
As to those (including me and the designer himself) who criticize that cables are too expensive, well Iconoclast speaker cables are about $1400 to $2400 so they are not cheap. Maybe it's true that audio grade cables are not cheap to manufacture.
The Story of Iconoclast Cable
Flame me all you want, but as long as copper cables have low capacitance/meter, low inductance and are thick enough, thats good enough for me! audiophiles worry about cable sound? the records you listen to have been recorded through thousands of opamps, patch cables, and who knows what else, the cables should be the last of your worries.
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Well I guess my post really not related to what you said. Your point may be tangential to my main discussion.
He’s just using cheap cable!
I talked to one of your people the other day....Bob from Pensacola, he offers a 30 day free listening trial (still have to have a card on file)
I’m not sure if that’s a setup or not but sounds fair?
I talked to one of your people the other day....Bob from Pensacola, he offers a 30 day free listening trial (still have to have a card on file)
I’m not sure if that’s a setup or not but sounds fair?
Actually I am not affiliated with Iconoclast in anyway ...
My point was I simply posted the link from Iconoclast so if he called it stupid means he called people at Iconoclast stupid.
My point was I simply posted the link from Iconoclast so if he called it stupid means he called people at Iconoclast stupid.
I see 🙄
I still think that’s a decent offer as long as it doesn’t result in a false charge.....I seem to remember a couple scams to that same tune?
I still think that’s a decent offer as long as it doesn’t result in a false charge.....I seem to remember a couple scams to that same tune?
Iconoclast is being marketed by Blue Jean Cables. It has a long thread discussion at PS Audio.
Belden ICONOCLAST Interconnects and Speaker Cabling - Cables - PS Audio
But I agree with you that there are too many online cable companies that give the industry a bad name. If there is a genuine 30 day money back, then may be at least you get your money back.
Belden ICONOCLAST Interconnects and Speaker Cabling - Cables - PS Audio
But I agree with you that there are too many online cable companies that give the industry a bad name. If there is a genuine 30 day money back, then may be at least you get your money back.
Nope, speaker cables are one of the first of your worries because they are last in the energy train and are 'final filters' of sorts. AC cables as 'final filters' are similarly important because they are the system connection to energy admitted in from the 'outside world'. All those upstream resistors, caps, opamps, pcb's, wires, cables, power transformers/supplies, enclosures, connectors, interconnection cables etc etc each have a voice in the sound of the system. The speaker final cables diminish these upstream voices and add an overwriting new voice that imprints the 'house sound' characteristic of different cable types. Cables are final filters, get used to it, understand it, utilise this knowledge and you can find the right cable to enable you to enjoy your music even more.....and at little cost.
Dan.
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I have recordings of interconnects that sound different, very different. There are of course those who insist that all cables are the same, let Ethan Whiner be their idol.
This pic from the PS Audio Forum you linked says it perfectly. A really good audio system reveals the 3D truth encoded or embedded in the 'sea of information' in a manner similar to the 3D pic above that has hidden information that is available only when this sea of information is viewed (or measured) correctly. So the question is what roles and levels do audio system noises, distortions and other classes of aberrations play in obscuring or altering this encoded 'holographic' audible detail. Similarly, what kinds of processing would serve to alter or obscure the 'hidden in plain sight' 3D information in this pic ?........photo experts anybody ?.
Dan.
I’ve vowed never to pay over $5/ft for speaker wire......I do believe there is merit to having proper LCR as a tuning tool and maybe the higher dollar stuff does make a difference but it’s well into diminishing returns for me.
I’d still be interested in testing the iconoclast if it really is a no risk 30 day trial offer.
I’d still be interested in testing the iconoclast if it really is a no risk 30 day trial offer.
Let's talk about the idea of diminishing return within the context of overall cost of a system.
Let's say you have a BMW M3 which costs about 80K. You want to spend 30K to upgrade various things to make it goes even faster, but after 30K, any improvement after that would be diminishing return. So the total cost here is $110K.
Or you could choose to use $110K to buy a 911 Carrera S which is even faster than the M3 even with $30K of improvement. Now given the Carrera S has a much higher performance base line vs. the M3, it has a higher level of diminishing return. For example, the 911 GT3 is the higher performance variance of the Carrera S. The GT3 is about $160K so the diminishing return for the Carrera S is about $50K, not $30K as with the M3.
Let's say you have a BMW M3 which costs about 80K. You want to spend 30K to upgrade various things to make it goes even faster, but after 30K, any improvement after that would be diminishing return. So the total cost here is $110K.
Or you could choose to use $110K to buy a 911 Carrera S which is even faster than the M3 even with $30K of improvement. Now given the Carrera S has a much higher performance base line vs. the M3, it has a higher level of diminishing return. For example, the 911 GT3 is the higher performance variance of the Carrera S. The GT3 is about $160K so the diminishing return for the Carrera S is about $50K, not $30K as with the M3.
That's why I suggested different colour Lamp Cord on BT thread......same geometry so 'same' LCR values, but fundamentally different sounds for way less than $5/ft.
Drop in somewhere and take a listen would do for me for interest sake and to self reference the written reviews.....my view is $5/ft is already way too much.
Dan.
I guess you'll frown upon my 12 gauge AC cable I bought from Home Depot to use it as speaker cable?
Nope, that's the opposite I what I am saying, my cable is even cheaper than yours.
Twin 12G/2mm2 is plenty copper, Lamp Cord Twin 18G/1mm2 is plenty also, I am saying to choose the insulation colour because of audible effects of pigments, iow be aware/wary of this usually ignored factor when comparing cables.
Dan.
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