Hi,
Mind you I was so much in dubio with another word in that post of mine that I couldn't care less when, as I ran it through the Micoshaft speller and that didn't want to recognise it one way or or another, I just gave it the go ahead and to hell with it....
Those decissions always backfire, don't they?
Knorr is a make of soup you silly...
Do you actually know what you're saying?
Must be a Phredian slip of yours...
Now if you can translate and spell that correctly in a few more linguae I might just salute you with the utmost respect...
More ad hoc; merry X-mass to all you,
Mind you I was so much in dubio with another word in that post of mine that I couldn't care less when, as I ran it through the Micoshaft speller and that didn't want to recognise it one way or or another, I just gave it the go ahead and to hell with it....
Those decissions always backfire, don't they?
Knorr is a make of soup you silly...
Do you actually know what you're saying?
Must be a Phredian slip of yours...
Now if you can translate and spell that correctly in a few more linguae I might just salute you with the utmost respect...
More ad hoc; merry X-mass to all you,
Steve Eddy said:
Letting the heat escape freely out of the components, of course, is not a bad thing. The circuit board (heatsink) will be primarily a conduit for heat rather than for signals. With P2P, I'll be able to better control the proximity of signal paths. As JCarr mentioned, more 3D. Lead lengths potentially shorter. Do I need to do this? Again, since I'm going through the effort, I'd like to do the best I can. My circuitry is rather conventional so I'd like to try a few different things. If only Frank gives us hint #5 before the end of the year...
JF
Oink Says The Pig...
Hi,
LOL...
The key is one R in knor not two, you're doing just fine no matter what the missie says...
(Told you this before, bad pupil. Or is it the memory?)
I don't mind to be corrected at all, I just try to offer plausible causes for things people perceive...
So far, I've rarely been proven totally wrong when it comes to audio related matters.
In fact, I'd be honoured to learn from you and I really mean it...
I just hope you don't think I wasted over 20 years + of my life researching audio ?
If there's one thing I know in this particular department for a fact : mere measurements as we know them are not going to tell us anything.....
Extrapolating results from research in the nanoelectric fields is what has made high-end audio what it is today.
I was there and saw it happen, so did John Curl and it all happened many years ago...
We measured and tinkered, dedicated our life till it wasn't pretty anymore...
Hint#5 The ability to crosslink one science to another.
Thank you,
Hi,
LOL...
The key is one R in knor not two, you're doing just fine no matter what the missie says...
(Told you this before, bad pupil. Or is it the memory?)
I don't mind to be corrected at all, I just try to offer plausible causes for things people perceive...
So far, I've rarely been proven totally wrong when it comes to audio related matters.
In fact, I'd be honoured to learn from you and I really mean it...
I just hope you don't think I wasted over 20 years + of my life researching audio ?
If there's one thing I know in this particular department for a fact : mere measurements as we know them are not going to tell us anything.....
Extrapolating results from research in the nanoelectric fields is what has made high-end audio what it is today.
I was there and saw it happen, so did John Curl and it all happened many years ago...
We measured and tinkered, dedicated our life till it wasn't pretty anymore...
Hint#5 The ability to crosslink one science to another.
Thank you,
Re: Oh, for crying out loud ......
Sorry, missed this one the first time through.
Well, I wasn't hung up on.
Don't know that they'd want to jump into this mess. They seem to be rather um... "private." There's not a phone number or an address anywhere on their web site that I could find. I don't suppose it could hurt to ask them, but I don't know that I want to be the one asking.
se
mefinnis said:
Sorry, missed this one the first time through.
Well, I wasn't hung up on.
Don't know that they'd want to jump into this mess. They seem to be rather um... "private." There's not a phone number or an address anywhere on their web site that I could find. I don't suppose it could hurt to ask them, but I don't know that I want to be the one asking.
se
Re: Oink Says The Pig...
There's at least one book on that topic--Consilience: The Unity of Knowledge. It's an interesting book. Where are we going to go with gathered knowledge...might as well try to leverage what we know in one area with something in another area, if it works. Some of it will, some of it won't. New kinds of possibilities with cross-pollenization...
JF
fdegrove said:
There's at least one book on that topic--Consilience: The Unity of Knowledge. It's an interesting book. Where are we going to go with gathered knowledge...might as well try to leverage what we know in one area with something in another area, if it works. Some of it will, some of it won't. New kinds of possibilities with cross-pollenization...
JF
Re: Oink Says The Pig...
Well sure. Anyone who's as vague and ambiguous on matters as you routinely are couldn't be proven totally wrong. How can something be proven totally wrong when one is given but half a measure?
Not going to tell us anything about what exactly?
A laughing stock you mean?
The problem with many of these "extrapolations" is that they never go beyond extrapolation and remain ultimately nothing more than unsupported assumptions and speculations.
But they certainly make for great marketing literature and the illusion that the company is on the "leading edge" of technology when more often that not they're simply trying to do something "different" in order to compete in a saturated market.
And after all that, to this day no one has yet demonstrated that any of it is even actually audible, prefering instead to rely solely on speculation and assumption leaving our knowledge and understanding no more advanced than it was decades ago.
But when you don't show that the one is in fact relevant to the other, all you've got left is more speculation, assumption, and spiffy marketing literature.
se
fdegrove said:
Well sure. Anyone who's as vague and ambiguous on matters as you routinely are couldn't be proven totally wrong. How can something be proven totally wrong when one is given but half a measure?
Not going to tell us anything about what exactly?
A laughing stock you mean?
The problem with many of these "extrapolations" is that they never go beyond extrapolation and remain ultimately nothing more than unsupported assumptions and speculations.
But they certainly make for great marketing literature and the illusion that the company is on the "leading edge" of technology when more often that not they're simply trying to do something "different" in order to compete in a saturated market.
And after all that, to this day no one has yet demonstrated that any of it is even actually audible, prefering instead to rely solely on speculation and assumption leaving our knowledge and understanding no more advanced than it was decades ago.
But when you don't show that the one is in fact relevant to the other, all you've got left is more speculation, assumption, and spiffy marketing literature.
se
Re: Re: Oink Says The Pig...
But as I said to Frank, no one to speak of is actually doing real research to see if any of it "works" in different contexts. Instead they just automatically assume that some behavior known to occur in one specific context under certain specific conditions must also be occurring in every other context and conditions.
And that ultimately gets us nowhere other than perhaps to sell more product.
se
johnferrier said:
But as I said to Frank, no one to speak of is actually doing real research to see if any of it "works" in different contexts. Instead they just automatically assume that some behavior known to occur in one specific context under certain specific conditions must also be occurring in every other context and conditions.
And that ultimately gets us nowhere other than perhaps to sell more product.
se
johnferrier said:
Dunno about NEED per se...
But even if you just want to do it for purely philosophical or aesthetics, that's cool too. I'm firm believer in holistic subjectivity.
What I'm getting at is that unless you really need the heatsinking for heat dissipation, then there's not much sense in introducing elements in proximity to the circuit which aren't necessary such as glues and whatever it is you plan to glue them to.
se
Hi,
Isn't that what you want ?
Not that you helped the industry any as far as I know but we had at least some plausible topics and look around you:
When I started the average engineer was convinced that a resistor was just that, we knew better and over time this was accepted....Still little proof is there...
Could go on and on and the same topic will...., no doubt...
What you're so fiercefully and unscientifcally discussing (even if you wanted to) is bound to haunt you ten years later as time has already caught up with it so long ago, only you want proof of it first....
The proof was there already and what you're persueing here is already old hat to me and a number of others, so old in fact that I've forgotten most of it.
There's only one to convince and that's you, yes, you.
I won't do that, Steve, learning is one thing, teaching is quite another and convincing one of their auditory experience, making them hear what one thinks to hear is simply impossible....
Merry X-mass,
Isn't that what you want ?
Not that you helped the industry any as far as I know but we had at least some plausible topics and look around you:
When I started the average engineer was convinced that a resistor was just that, we knew better and over time this was accepted....Still little proof is there...
Could go on and on and the same topic will...., no doubt...
What you're so fiercefully and unscientifcally discussing (even if you wanted to) is bound to haunt you ten years later as time has already caught up with it so long ago, only you want proof of it first....
The proof was there already and what you're persueing here is already old hat to me and a number of others, so old in fact that I've forgotten most of it.
There's only one to convince and that's you, yes, you.
I won't do that, Steve, learning is one thing, teaching is quite another and convincing one of their auditory experience, making them hear what one thinks to hear is simply impossible....
Merry X-mass,
johnferrier said:
Well, it'd increase parasitic capacitances. Which if you're ultimately shooting for something more "ideal" wouldn't necessarily be good.
But I'm still unsure as to what your goal is and what your priorities are.
I'd guess it'd depend on the materials involved. Perhaps SY can offer some guidance in this regard.
Sure. More fun than discussing religion.
se
Steve Eddy said:
Well, there usually is a ground plane anyway. I'm just also using it as a heatsink. And the dielectric is air, rather than FR4 (or Teflon--which I could use too). Air, of course, is the next best thing to a vacuum.
Steve Eddy said:
SY is a good guy. I appreciate his policing efforts. He has a good touch with it.
I guess I'd just like to know where I can find some information on the electrical properties (conductivity/leakage and dielectric strength) of the plastic material used for ICs and active discretes. I'll look at some of the Mfg's sites, too. Though, I guess it would help me to know what it's called other than "plastic material".
JF
Last off topic post...
Hi Steve,
Something more interesting. (Texas Instrument's search engine is down at the moment...)
"Pierre Boulez has observed that loudspeakers have the property of 'anonymizing' the sound of musical instruments, that is, of making them all sound the same. 'Le haut-parleur anonymise la source reelle.'"
Maestro Boulez's music (as composer and conductor) is most what I want to reproduce well. So when I think about the larger picture of what is possible with reproduced music, I keep his comment in mind.
The quotation is from a patent on a new type of speaker (Directional tone color loudspeaker) that never took hold (that I'm aware of).
http://patft.uspto.gov/netacgi/nph-...s1=boulez.PPDB.&OS=SPEC/boulez&RS=SPEC/boulez
JF
Hi Steve,
Something more interesting. (Texas Instrument's search engine is down at the moment...)
"Pierre Boulez has observed that loudspeakers have the property of 'anonymizing' the sound of musical instruments, that is, of making them all sound the same. 'Le haut-parleur anonymise la source reelle.'"
Maestro Boulez's music (as composer and conductor) is most what I want to reproduce well. So when I think about the larger picture of what is possible with reproduced music, I keep his comment in mind.
The quotation is from a patent on a new type of speaker (Directional tone color loudspeaker) that never took hold (that I'm aware of).
http://patft.uspto.gov/netacgi/nph-...s1=boulez.PPDB.&OS=SPEC/boulez&RS=SPEC/boulez
JF
JF, the thermally conductive epoxies and silicones are normally loaded with things like beryllium oxide, and normally nonconductive.
There are quite a few people out there making these, starting with Dupont and Dow-Corning. You might check through the Thomas Directory for a pretty complete list. One useful key phrase is "potting compound." Another is "conductive adhesive." My long-time favorite producer, Amicon, seems to be gone now, alas. They were part of the WR Grace empire, which has withered away following Peter Grace's passing.
Frank, sorry for the misspelling. Knor. Knor. I need to tattoo that on my palm for reference. As my three year old likes to say, "Boe zegt de koe!"
There are quite a few people out there making these, starting with Dupont and Dow-Corning. You might check through the Thomas Directory for a pretty complete list. One useful key phrase is "potting compound." Another is "conductive adhesive." My long-time favorite producer, Amicon, seems to be gone now, alas. They were part of the WR Grace empire, which has withered away following Peter Grace's passing.
Frank, sorry for the misspelling. Knor. Knor. I need to tattoo that on my palm for reference. As my three year old likes to say, "Boe zegt de koe!"
grataku said:SY,
I am not talking about this thread specifically but I always seen some type of affinity, or like-mindedness, between you and SE. Maybe it's just geography.
As far as opening-up laboratories I think it's a bit pretentious on anyone's part, and it's almost never done, at least in science there is an unspoken sense of how far you can go even with a conversation. Going in to check a colleague's work is certainly beyond the boundaries. In industry investment bankers are probably the only ones to be allowed in.
You are, in totality, incorrect..
We just had a Fermilab physicist here, presenting their latest results and designs for a 12 tesla common coil niobium tin superconducting magnet..
Lots of discussion, many relevant questions and issues. We presented many design irregularities, helped with strain issues, asked of materians and processes..
I went to Cornell with a collegue, overviewing their CLEO wigglers, another superconducting magnet..
So, your asertion that overviewing, collaboration,..is incorrect
Cheers, John
Call It Insurance.............
Originally posted by fdegrove
The size of the problem is trivial but just think about the extra insulating material you're hosting and for what good reason?
True enough - depends on the sound of the insulation.
Add to that extra capacitance and so on...Not harmful per se in some situations but I can't even second guess the application you have in mind.
Standard interconnect application, but intended to be non directional.
Capacitance and RF pickup did not seem to be an issue (5 mm spacing).
I understand your logic drawn from Eric's but I'm afraid I can't support it and this way of putting wires in // wasn't what Eric had in mind...
I think John got it right..........
I mentioned a (spaced) star quad construction where active and earth legs are all made from the same length of wire (cut into 2 pieces).
Each piece is bent back on itself at the middle point to form active or neutral dual conductor in direction cancelling configuration.
In past experience with four strands (0.8 mm) per channel of very high quality copper, this configuration worked exceedingly well. This experiment gave 3 dimensional imaging with sounds from miles in front of the listening position, and from miles behind the listening position on natural sound recordings.
Close mic'd sounds sat in a thin depth band between the speakers, and more distant sounds sounded, well... more distant.
I recall a thought experiment at the time was to try eight spaced wires to theoretically better cancel wire directional and wire to wire field effects - have not actually tried it yet.
The correctly configured 4 or 8 wire plaited wire might be another solution.
Either way I don't feel it solves directionallity if that were such a problem at all.
I have (using) audio coaxial interconnects that have not lessened their viciously distinct directional/dynamic bias effect despite how long they have remained in service in either physical direction.
Periodic direction A/B comparison has confirmed this.
Wether this bias is due to the conductor materials, the insulations or the manufacturing process I do not know.
This cable is guitar cable with multi-strand center conductor inside clear/translucent dielectric that has a black conductive polymer layer on the outside.
The braid is in contact with this tubular conductive polymer layer and a normal sheath encapsulates the whole lot.
This cable gives strong depth imaging differences according to direction.
I have not tried standard enamelled wire twisted pair in this application so I have not studied it for losing direction efffects.
Eric.
Originally posted by fdegrove
The size of the problem is trivial but just think about the extra insulating material you're hosting and for what good reason?
True enough - depends on the sound of the insulation.
Add to that extra capacitance and so on...Not harmful per se in some situations but I can't even second guess the application you have in mind.
Standard interconnect application, but intended to be non directional.
Capacitance and RF pickup did not seem to be an issue (5 mm spacing).
I understand your logic drawn from Eric's but I'm afraid I can't support it and this way of putting wires in // wasn't what Eric had in mind...
I think John got it right..........
I mentioned a (spaced) star quad construction where active and earth legs are all made from the same length of wire (cut into 2 pieces).
Each piece is bent back on itself at the middle point to form active or neutral dual conductor in direction cancelling configuration.
In past experience with four strands (0.8 mm) per channel of very high quality copper, this configuration worked exceedingly well. This experiment gave 3 dimensional imaging with sounds from miles in front of the listening position, and from miles behind the listening position on natural sound recordings.
Close mic'd sounds sat in a thin depth band between the speakers, and more distant sounds sounded, well... more distant.
I recall a thought experiment at the time was to try eight spaced wires to theoretically better cancel wire directional and wire to wire field effects - have not actually tried it yet.
The correctly configured 4 or 8 wire plaited wire might be another solution.
Either way I don't feel it solves directionallity if that were such a problem at all.
I have (using) audio coaxial interconnects that have not lessened their viciously distinct directional/dynamic bias effect despite how long they have remained in service in either physical direction.
Periodic direction A/B comparison has confirmed this.
Wether this bias is due to the conductor materials, the insulations or the manufacturing process I do not know.
This cable is guitar cable with multi-strand center conductor inside clear/translucent dielectric that has a black conductive polymer layer on the outside.
The braid is in contact with this tubular conductive polymer layer and a normal sheath encapsulates the whole lot.
This cable gives strong depth imaging differences according to direction.
I have not tried standard enamelled wire twisted pair in this application so I have not studied it for losing direction efffects.
Eric.
Hi,
Eric,
What John F. had in mind, I think, was using your kind of configuration for internal wiring inside of an amplifier.
If you view my comments witihn that context I think you may agree.
Sy,
Now that's funny.
No need to apologise for the spelling though...
I'm flattered young Jimmy (?) is learning some Flemish and I'm sure it's not the only language he's learning either besides English.
Happy Hanuka,
Eric,
What John F. had in mind, I think, was using your kind of configuration for internal wiring inside of an amplifier.
If you view my comments witihn that context I think you may agree.
Sy,
Now that's funny.
No need to apologise for the spelling though...
I'm flattered young Jimmy (?) is learning some Flemish and I'm sure it's not the only language he's learning either besides English.
Happy Hanuka,
By the way, just received an EMail from Bruno. The synchronous averaged plots were made using 256 averages as well. Same as the power averaged plots.
Need to work on graphic output next so we can better relate the measurements. If need be, Charles can send me the PostScript files output from the AP and I can convert them into pdf and jpg files.
se
Need to work on graphic output next so we can better relate the measurements. If need be, Charles can send me the PostScript files output from the AP and I can convert them into pdf and jpg files.
se
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