Re: The Who???
I wasn't planning on using anything with an asymmetrical geometry.
But you're the one who'll be the listening and you do have such high amplification stages at home. So I don't see why that leaves us with speaker cables.
I was hoping to avoid having to do any switching. See below.
This is what I was trying to hone in on as it would allow the testing to be done without any sort of switching back and forth.
Basically a number of pairs (i.e. left and right) of cables would be randomly made up with some having both channels wired up in the same direction and some made up with one channel wired oppositely.
This way each pair could be evaluated entirely on its own without any switching. If a pair brings about the shifted image effect that you and Eric speak of, then that pair should be an oppositely wired pair. If a pair doesn't bring about the shifted image effect, then that pair should be a same-wired pair.
You'd notate which pairs resulted in the shifted image and which will subsequently be compared to how they were actually wired.
I don't know that we need any particular measurements at this point. If we establish actual audibility, then we can theorize as to possible causes and then test each theory by changing only that one variable and doing the tests again.
In other words, if we change just one variable and the phenomenon persists, we can conclude that that particular variable isn't responsible.
If we hit upon a variable that does change the results, then we can think of ways to measure the physical effects of that variable.
No idea. But measurement is getting well ahead of things. The goal at the moment is establishing actual audibility.
No idea.
What I'm wanting to think through at this point is the best way to go about doing the listening tests.
So far so good. Thanks. 🙂
se
fdegrove said:
I wasn't planning on using anything with an asymmetrical geometry.
But you're the one who'll be the listening and you do have such high amplification stages at home. So I don't see why that leaves us with speaker cables.
I was hoping to avoid having to do any switching. See below.
This is what I was trying to hone in on as it would allow the testing to be done without any sort of switching back and forth.
Basically a number of pairs (i.e. left and right) of cables would be randomly made up with some having both channels wired up in the same direction and some made up with one channel wired oppositely.
This way each pair could be evaluated entirely on its own without any switching. If a pair brings about the shifted image effect that you and Eric speak of, then that pair should be an oppositely wired pair. If a pair doesn't bring about the shifted image effect, then that pair should be a same-wired pair.
You'd notate which pairs resulted in the shifted image and which will subsequently be compared to how they were actually wired.
I don't know that we need any particular measurements at this point. If we establish actual audibility, then we can theorize as to possible causes and then test each theory by changing only that one variable and doing the tests again.
In other words, if we change just one variable and the phenomenon persists, we can conclude that that particular variable isn't responsible.
If we hit upon a variable that does change the results, then we can think of ways to measure the physical effects of that variable.
No idea. But measurement is getting well ahead of things. The goal at the moment is establishing actual audibility.
No idea.
What I'm wanting to think through at this point is the best way to go about doing the listening tests.
So far so good. Thanks. 🙂
se
fdegrove said:
Sure, but as I said, it would have implications well beyond high-end audio.
What intrigues me most is that this phenomenon has seemingly gone wholly unnoticed by the physics and materials science community.
Of course talk is cheap. 🙂
It would be the single biggest step in my opinion. And would go a long way toward settling "the great debate." Just imagine how many arguments it would finally put an end to.
se
Hi,
Not just that but also a number of othe "things" you so quietly write between the lines in your last post...providing we succeed.
You're method is acceptable to me and if no obe else objects I'd go for it.
What I meant to point out is that be having
a) high amplification stage of 70dB+ I'm likely to be at an advantage.
b) having 92db/W speakers helps too.
A person with even higher efficiency speakers such as 100dB/W+ horn speakers may be even more at an advantage here...these are true magnifying glasses to anything even remotely off.
Oh, well let's give our best shot...
Any particular wire/cable you have in mind?
Cheers, 😉
Not just that but also a number of othe "things" you so quietly write between the lines in your last post...providing we succeed.
You're method is acceptable to me and if no obe else objects I'd go for it.
What I meant to point out is that be having
a) high amplification stage of 70dB+ I'm likely to be at an advantage.
b) having 92db/W speakers helps too.
A person with even higher efficiency speakers such as 100dB/W+ horn speakers may be even more at an advantage here...these are true magnifying glasses to anything even remotely off.
Oh, well let's give our best shot...
Any particular wire/cable you have in mind?
Cheers, 😉
fdegrove said:
Yes. And I'd certainly be willing to help write up a paper to present to the AES.
Great.
Great. I want whomever is doing the listening to have as much of an advantage as possible. Actual audibility needn't be established for any more than one person.
Hehehe. True.
Hmmm... Curious. Do you get a similar effect when using headphones?
Well, you'd said previously that the effect is most pronounced with high quality minimal crystal wire so I was thinking about doing them up as a quad braid using the 26 gauge ultra high purity, Ohno Continuous Cast magnet wire from Vampire.
The only sticky point is the RCAs. I want to do up about 20 pairs for the test (i.e. 80 RCAs) and I'm not up to spending hundreds of dollars on high-priced RCAs.
How critical are the RCAs? I've actually heard some reports about how good some of those cheap plastic shell RCAs can sound.
Anyway, before we proceed with the actual test, I'd want to make up a single reference pair to send you so you can give them a try and make sure you're confident that you're perceiving the effect. If that goes well, I'd follow up with the actual test pairs.
se
Truly incredible!!! Frank and Steve agree on how to do a valid
listening test!!
I don't know if I am as pleased as I am surprised or if I am
as surprised as I am pleased. 🙂
listening test!!
I don't know if I am as pleased as I am surprised or if I am
as surprised as I am pleased. 🙂
Hi,
Sure do.
Hmmm...as long as we can settle for one that makes reasonably good contact...Is Tiffany still around? They weren't too bad for a RCA contraptor.
Good idea...As a favour and if you continue to be such a good lad I may consider sending you a set of my own silver reference ICs...😉
The cable you send me will be returned to you don't worry...
Cheers,😉
Sure do.
Hmmm...as long as we can settle for one that makes reasonably good contact...Is Tiffany still around? They weren't too bad for a RCA contraptor.
Good idea...As a favour and if you continue to be such a good lad I may consider sending you a set of my own silver reference ICs...😉
The cable you send me will be returned to you don't worry...
Cheers,😉
fdegrove said:
Would headphones be more helpful for the listening tests? I can see how they might eliminate various distractions such as room reflections and ambient noise.
They're still around but now called just Tiff. But I don't have any pricing information on them anymore. The cheapest Vampire RCAs are $4.41 so that comes to over $200.
Why thank ya, Frank. 🙂
Though I have to say that I've played with silver before and it hasn't quite been my cup o' tea.
Hehehe. Don't care about the reference pair. It's the 20 pair that I'd be wanting back. 🙂
By the way, I'm thinking of doing around 4 or 5 trials with 20 pairs for each trial.
se
Hi,
Exactly, I always use my Stax Lamba Pro for that kind of stuff...
What are the cheapest RCA you can source? I am thinking about a buck a piece of Asian frauds here....
Did I actually say that?
What I mean, do you have Asian Industrial catalogues you can order from directly?
Don't make reveal too many industry secrets, will ya?
Cheers,😉
Exactly, I always use my Stax Lamba Pro for that kind of stuff...
What are the cheapest RCA you can source? I am thinking about a buck a piece of Asian frauds here....
Did I actually say that?
What I mean, do you have Asian Industrial catalogues you can order from directly?
Don't make reveal too many industry secrets, will ya?
Cheers,😉
What a waste of time and energy......Twenty years ago Moncrief came out with Wonder Wire and stated it was directional so all the folks using this internally had to make up interconnects to listen one way then the other and decide for themselves which way was correct....One way sounded different than the other.....If you two want to make up a bunch of interconnects to listen to suggestion is to use solid core wire as stranded is much tougher to distinguish differences than is solid core......Good luck, but this has been done years ago.....
Wine Tasting...............
Similar adjectives describe the audio device that I speak of.
Eric.
Hey SY, before you get too cynical, perhaps you are forgetting these words from someone that you trust (Duncan G) - "In summary, I'd say it did improve the bottle we had, made it smoother."SY said:
Similar adjectives describe the audio device that I speak of.
Eric.
I'm not impossible.
Since I mentioned before, I think, that my 10+ year old DIY
CD interconnects are made from directed cables, I decided
to conduct a very quick listening test with reversing them,
just to show some of you guys that I am not impossible. Do
note that I have never dismissed the possibility that cables
might actually be audibly directed, although I have declare
a scepticism towards it.
Damn it, I am almost prepared to believe that I can possibly
perceive a slight difference. The test was not very conlcusive
or well set up, it is late at night so I am tired and used
headphones. I am not saying there is a difference, just that
I am not convinced that I cannot perceive one.
I used the following CDs:
1) Berlioz: Symphonie Fantastique, Munch, RCA living stereo
2) Janacek: Vec Makropolus, Mackerras, Decca
3) Fauré: Requiem, Ansermet, Decca
For each of these I listened to the first one to one and a half
minute of the first track, thus, case 1 and 2 were orchestra
only, while 3 was orchestra + choir. For each of these I
swithced the direction of the cables forth and back a couple
of times.
Possibly perceived differences:
1) No difference, or so slight that possible is a strong word.
2) and 3) Correct direction (CD to amp): slightly broader
soundstage, slightly more open sound and more acoustics.
BTW, the inteconnects use two directed coaxial cables per
channel, one for signal and one for ground, using the shields only
as shields and grounded only at one end. The brand and type
is stated on the cables as "Monacor low noise" only. RCAs
are crappy standard no-gold or whatever.
Since I mentioned before, I think, that my 10+ year old DIY
CD interconnects are made from directed cables, I decided
to conduct a very quick listening test with reversing them,
just to show some of you guys that I am not impossible. Do
note that I have never dismissed the possibility that cables
might actually be audibly directed, although I have declare
a scepticism towards it.
Damn it, I am almost prepared to believe that I can possibly
perceive a slight difference. The test was not very conlcusive
or well set up, it is late at night so I am tired and used
headphones. I am not saying there is a difference, just that
I am not convinced that I cannot perceive one.
I used the following CDs:
1) Berlioz: Symphonie Fantastique, Munch, RCA living stereo
2) Janacek: Vec Makropolus, Mackerras, Decca
3) Fauré: Requiem, Ansermet, Decca
For each of these I listened to the first one to one and a half
minute of the first track, thus, case 1 and 2 were orchestra
only, while 3 was orchestra + choir. For each of these I
swithced the direction of the cables forth and back a couple
of times.
Possibly perceived differences:
1) No difference, or so slight that possible is a strong word.
2) and 3) Correct direction (CD to amp): slightly broader
soundstage, slightly more open sound and more acoustics.
BTW, the inteconnects use two directed coaxial cables per
channel, one for signal and one for ground, using the shields only
as shields and grounded only at one end. The brand and type
is stated on the cables as "Monacor low noise" only. RCAs
are crappy standard no-gold or whatever.
mrfeedback: Duncan also said that he found you a charming and fun individual (doesn't surprise me a bit), and that he regretted not doing a blind test. And without a blind test, he wouldn't want to draw any firm conclusions.
Frank, Steve, how about dropping the idea of RCA connectors and just having Frank sort a set of coded wires by direction? That way, he can use the MC amp protocol he's used to.
Tried the solid core mains cables today while my cooking partner was over, helping me watch my beloved '49ers lose. No difference that either of us could hear. The guy just hates my ESLs ("Dude, they don't ROCK!"), but he's got the last pair of dynamic speakers that I built ("Dude, these ROCK!").
Frank, Steve, how about dropping the idea of RCA connectors and just having Frank sort a set of coded wires by direction? That way, he can use the MC amp protocol he's used to.
Tried the solid core mains cables today while my cooking partner was over, helping me watch my beloved '49ers lose. No difference that either of us could hear. The guy just hates my ESLs ("Dude, they don't ROCK!"), but he's got the last pair of dynamic speakers that I built ("Dude, these ROCK!").
Christer, if you put together the DIY interconnects so the return has reversed directionality from the signal then there is very little difference between one direction and the other, normally just image height with be a touch higher with the correct orientation......
SY said:
If I understand you correctly, this might indicate just what I
suggested yesterday over in one of the "Good loudspeaker"
thread, that an individuals preference for speakers may
depend on that individuals musical preferences? It is just
a hypothesis of mine that seems reasonable and logical and
it correlates with at least one experiment we did many
years ago.
SY said:
Works for me.
I'll need to get a bit more information from Frank as to how he'd want the wires configured.
se
Bring It On............
Originally posted by Steve Eddy
Great. So then you won't mind participating in a formal listening test?
Sure, if you send me a set of test cables I am perfectly to evaluate them, and report my findings.
If an effect is shown to actually be audible, it needn't be explained by simple physics theory. It just needs to be established that it's audible.
Sure.
A solid physics explanation should quench the auto-naysayers though.
We're not talking about your device. We're talking about the directionality of wires and the claims that this is audible.
Ok, so threads evolve, and come back.
I've got a device that fits your description above too. I call it a diode. So what?
I'll put that comment into the sarcastic bin.
Again, we're not talking about your devices. We're talking about your claim that wire is directional and audible.
Fine, we'll concentrate on that.
Great. But it's ultimately nothing more than an empty claim.
I understand that it is normal human nature to regard just about any change as a positive change.
Experience is useful in self eliminating this expectation factor.
Ditto.
Good.
Which is why I asked YOU to be the participant of the test I proposed. Since you claim to have the equipment and the skills, then any null result can't be simply dismissed because the participant lacked the appropriate listening skills and appropriate equipment.
Thankyou for recognising my learned skills.
I didn't present the psychology argument as ANY sort of proof. I only present the psychology argument as a POSSIBLE cause. And that until that POSSIBLE cause has been eliminated by means other than ego, empty claims and hand-waving, then that POSSIBLE cause will always remain as an ambiguity.
Yeah, but you keep bringing up the frozen photos ad nauseum.
Please learn to drop that stupid example.
I understand that perfectly well. And I never presented psychology as the ONLY possible reason. Only as A possible reason. Which until it can be safely ruled out, will always be A possible reason and you will never know what the REAL truth may be.
For a sample group from the local football club, I would expect psychological findings to predominate.
For a sample group of audio professionals I would expect correct findings.
As Sherlock Holmes used to say, once you eliminate the impossible, whatever is left, however improbable, must be the truth.
Improbable according to established theories is what you mean isn't it ?.
Do not forget that elementary theory does not explain all observed audio effects.
As long as psychology remains among the possibilities, then you haven't reached the truth.
This is also a function of selecting the appropriate set of sample subjects.
Steve, if you are willing to go to the trouble of making a sample set of interconnects and sending them downunder, I am perfectly willing to listen and record my findings.
I also have a number of associates who could repeat my tests to increase your sample size.
I am already comfortable (as is Frank) that cables can be directional, and if we can help to enlighten you, that would be a public service.
I think standard cheap gold RCA plugs are perfectly adequate for this test.
For economy (materials, postage and time), I think only three mono cables are required.
Cheap thin audio coax cable without jacket markings would be appropriate.
All lengths would need to be from the same reel, and contiguous.
All cables would need a direction identifier like red for one end and black for the other, and a numerical marker say 1, 2, 3.
Two of these cables would be identical, and one reversed wrt the direction identifying plugs.
The task would be to identify the odd one out, and in my experience this should not be difficult.
I'm up to it.
Eric.
Originally posted by Steve Eddy
Great. So then you won't mind participating in a formal listening test?
Sure, if you send me a set of test cables I am perfectly to evaluate them, and report my findings.
If an effect is shown to actually be audible, it needn't be explained by simple physics theory. It just needs to be established that it's audible.
Sure.
A solid physics explanation should quench the auto-naysayers though.
We're not talking about your device. We're talking about the directionality of wires and the claims that this is audible.
Ok, so threads evolve, and come back.
I've got a device that fits your description above too. I call it a diode. So what?
I'll put that comment into the sarcastic bin.
Again, we're not talking about your devices. We're talking about your claim that wire is directional and audible.
Fine, we'll concentrate on that.
Great. But it's ultimately nothing more than an empty claim.
I understand that it is normal human nature to regard just about any change as a positive change.
Experience is useful in self eliminating this expectation factor.
Ditto.
Good.
Which is why I asked YOU to be the participant of the test I proposed. Since you claim to have the equipment and the skills, then any null result can't be simply dismissed because the participant lacked the appropriate listening skills and appropriate equipment.
Thankyou for recognising my learned skills.
I didn't present the psychology argument as ANY sort of proof. I only present the psychology argument as a POSSIBLE cause. And that until that POSSIBLE cause has been eliminated by means other than ego, empty claims and hand-waving, then that POSSIBLE cause will always remain as an ambiguity.
Yeah, but you keep bringing up the frozen photos ad nauseum.
Please learn to drop that stupid example.
I understand that perfectly well. And I never presented psychology as the ONLY possible reason. Only as A possible reason. Which until it can be safely ruled out, will always be A possible reason and you will never know what the REAL truth may be.
For a sample group from the local football club, I would expect psychological findings to predominate.
For a sample group of audio professionals I would expect correct findings.
As Sherlock Holmes used to say, once you eliminate the impossible, whatever is left, however improbable, must be the truth.
Improbable according to established theories is what you mean isn't it ?.
Do not forget that elementary theory does not explain all observed audio effects.
As long as psychology remains among the possibilities, then you haven't reached the truth.
This is also a function of selecting the appropriate set of sample subjects.
Steve, if you are willing to go to the trouble of making a sample set of interconnects and sending them downunder, I am perfectly willing to listen and record my findings.
I also have a number of associates who could repeat my tests to increase your sample size.
I am already comfortable (as is Frank) that cables can be directional, and if we can help to enlighten you, that would be a public service.
I think standard cheap gold RCA plugs are perfectly adequate for this test.
For economy (materials, postage and time), I think only three mono cables are required.
Cheap thin audio coax cable without jacket markings would be appropriate.
All lengths would need to be from the same reel, and contiguous.
All cables would need a direction identifier like red for one end and black for the other, and a numerical marker say 1, 2, 3.
Two of these cables would be identical, and one reversed wrt the direction identifying plugs.
The task would be to identify the odd one out, and in my experience this should not be difficult.
I'm up to it.
Eric.
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