I just swapped the NPEs in my speakers (Infinity RSII) for Solen MKP types and despite the fact that the level of detail is largely increased they sound very harsh and screechy. Maybe a bypass is in order? but with what?
maybe you would like to wait for a few days...for the caps to settle and burn in...and then decide on bypassing them...
Ok, still harsh (essing) 
after a couple of days 🙁
Marantz CD-94 to passive attenuator (short cables) to Slone OPTI-MOS 200W kits to Infinity RS II so I don't think the harshness lies somewhere else in the chain.
after a couple of days 🙁Marantz CD-94 to passive attenuator (short cables) to Slone OPTI-MOS 200W kits to Infinity RS II so I don't think the harshness lies somewhere else in the chain.
hi
was the sound harsh before changing caps?
did you check the mesured values of the caps you removed and put solen at the exact value
some times caps have different value than that read on the cap!
are you sure that the correct impedance is respected with your passive attenuator beetween the preamp and amp?
some times it is better to use a buffer after a trimmer for impedence matching;
the CD 94 has remote volume, did you try without the passive attenuator? that is cd to amp direct via the variable cd output?
anyway IMO bypassing caps in a speaker is not necessary as the caps values are low (1 to 20 microF?)
adding parallel caps increases the total value and changes the crossover behaviour:
bypassing is for high value caps (10.000uF) you add 5uF and .47uF in parallel it will not change the overal capacity (10.000+5+0.47=10.005.47)
was the sound harsh before changing caps?
did you check the mesured values of the caps you removed and put solen at the exact value
some times caps have different value than that read on the cap!
are you sure that the correct impedance is respected with your passive attenuator beetween the preamp and amp?
some times it is better to use a buffer after a trimmer for impedence matching;
the CD 94 has remote volume, did you try without the passive attenuator? that is cd to amp direct via the variable cd output?
anyway IMO bypassing caps in a speaker is not necessary as the caps values are low (1 to 20 microF?)
adding parallel caps increases the total value and changes the crossover behaviour:
bypassing is for high value caps (10.000uF) you add 5uF and .47uF in parallel it will not change the overal capacity (10.000+5+0.47=10.005.47)
lucpes said:
I don't know this NPEs, but I think it is similar to elyt caps used in many UK's loudspeakers. And I know that the harshness and screechy things are real. But that's audio, we almost always encounter trade-offs.
IMO, smaller value tends to bring details. May be it is the objective from the first place. Every type, every brand of caps, as well as cables, have their own signature. And it is like cooking, you should know how to use salt along with other ingredients.
In term of distortion introduced, Solen MKP is not that good compared to most caps I have been using, but to the NPE it should be an upgrade. Try "bypassing" with 1uF WIMA MKP10 😀 😀
docjoe said:
The bypassing cap should be part of the designed capacitance. And it should not be big-versus-small like in ripple rejection. I use different caps to take the best out of both worlds. Or to use a good expensive cap in any crossover I come up with (in parallel with Solen).
I measured the caps before installing ant they fall in the same ranges as the ones before (less than 5% tolerances eg. 12uf instead of 12.5uf, shouldn't be a problem). Before the change the sound was somehow blurred, but very musical & sweet (almost tube-like - very nice with female voices) and now it's cold, harsh and somehow upleasant (though guitars, bass, percussion & ambient sounds much better).
I only changed the capacitors in the midrange section (two 75uf paralleled for the 150uf + the rest - 2x12uf, 1x6.8uf ) as the high section already had a quality pp cap and the bass is hopeless (to change - anechoic response is 36Hz -2dB) with these values:
I only changed the capacitors in the midrange section (two 75uf paralleled for the 150uf + the rest - 2x12uf, 1x6.8uf ) as the high section already had a quality pp cap and the bass is hopeless (to change - anechoic response is 36Hz -2dB) with these values:
Attachments
Hello,
Just my 2 cents worth.
I would suggest at least 80 or 100 hours of play time before the Solen caps are broken in.
Try a different type of cable between crossover and tweeter, perhaps a big old stranded piece of 12 AWG.
If that does not help, may I suggest an aluminum foil/paper in oil cap of the smallest value you can find.
Good luck
Kevin Lee🙂
Just my 2 cents worth.
I would suggest at least 80 or 100 hours of play time before the Solen caps are broken in.
Try a different type of cable between crossover and tweeter, perhaps a big old stranded piece of 12 AWG.
If that does not help, may I suggest an aluminum foil/paper in oil cap of the smallest value you can find.
Good luck
Kevin Lee🙂
I just said I didn't change the capacitor for the tweeter 🙂 However the midrange runs up to 3000Hz and here it seems that all the mess is done at this level.
The tweeter is an EMIT planar magnetic ribbon, so I really don't think it is the problem (short review copy pasted from a Infinity Vintage page: EMIT tweeters are really fantastic sounding tweeters. They are a thin piece of plastic material with an etched voice coil on the surface of them suspended between 2 very powerful Samarium Cobalt magnets. Cymbals have a crispness on these speakers that you will hear on no other speakers. ) Don't know if it's true but the tweeter is not harsh at all...
I'll come back in a couple of weeks with details regarding burn-in or not 🙂 results. After all, the original NPEs had been inside the speakers for over 20 years so let's have some patience!
The tweeter is an EMIT planar magnetic ribbon, so I really don't think it is the problem (short review copy pasted from a Infinity Vintage page: EMIT tweeters are really fantastic sounding tweeters. They are a thin piece of plastic material with an etched voice coil on the surface of them suspended between 2 very powerful Samarium Cobalt magnets. Cymbals have a crispness on these speakers that you will hear on no other speakers. ) Don't know if it's true but the tweeter is not harsh at all...
I'll come back in a couple of weeks with details regarding burn-in or not 🙂 results. After all, the original NPEs had been inside the speakers for over 20 years so let's have some patience!
stappvargen said:Or maybe the tweeter just plain sounds bad!
Now you are hearing it for the first time...
I don't think so...speaker has its signature, yes. If it sound bad it sound bad no matter what. Unless crossover it to the point it distort badly or blown otherwise garbage in garbage out.
IMB
Chris
chris ma said:IMHO
Sounds like there is not enough copper and too much silver.
Chris
Silver? Where?
Ouch! I'd need to also change the production wire? Gimme a break (it's thick enough) 🙂
Well, have you tried to solder back the old electrolytics and judge how they sound again? Maybe another crossover component was damaged, or maybe you just made a cold joint soldering the Solens on... Do both channels sound the same?
your non polar electrolytics are 20 years old?
no wonder the sound was dull and undetailed; and you grew acustomed to it as time went by: now you've restored the speakers to their original sound.!!
try new NPE caps, they sell them at wimslows'
these caps originaly were maybe intended to tame the midrange??
by trial and error is how we progress!!
cheers
no wonder the sound was dull and undetailed; and you grew acustomed to it as time went by: now you've restored the speakers to their original sound.!!
try new NPE caps, they sell them at wimslows'
these caps originaly were maybe intended to tame the midrange??
by trial and error is how we progress!!
cheers
If you're familiar with Dead Can Dance, check the The Serpents Egg album, song called Severance, when the vocal comes in; it manages to reproduce my current essing problem albeit they managed to do it in the studio.
@stappvargen: Yep, both channels sound similar, checked for cold solder joints, but I haven't made one in months (hint: use a 100W soldering gun when working in speakers/have large items to solder).
@docjoe: Yep 20 year old NPEs, same as the speakers http://oellerer.net/infinity_classics/RS_II/RS_II_6.jpg 🙂 I have had these speakers for a year now (only 25 yo), since then I went through some equipment upgrades (new cdp&), every time for the better - that did not allow for me to get accustomed to the sound;
However, having read that MKP caps can sound harsh and somehow thin especially when used as shunt/bypass (also experienced this when building my amps, I had to go with mylar 0.1uf bypass for the amp rails to avoid this sound) maybe quality NPE elecrolytics would fare better for speaker networks in the midrange?
As I said, it's a bit hasty to make judgements in only two-three days if the Solens/MKPs are supposed to have such a large break-in time (80-100 hours), I'll leave them inside for a while and see what sound I come up with after they / or my ears 😀 settle in.
@stappvargen: Yep, both channels sound similar, checked for cold solder joints, but I haven't made one in months (hint: use a 100W soldering gun when working in speakers/have large items to solder).
@docjoe: Yep 20 year old NPEs, same as the speakers http://oellerer.net/infinity_classics/RS_II/RS_II_6.jpg 🙂 I have had these speakers for a year now (only 25 yo), since then I went through some equipment upgrades (new cdp&), every time for the better - that did not allow for me to get accustomed to the sound;
However, having read that MKP caps can sound harsh and somehow thin especially when used as shunt/bypass (also experienced this when building my amps, I had to go with mylar 0.1uf bypass for the amp rails to avoid this sound) maybe quality NPE elecrolytics would fare better for speaker networks in the midrange?
As I said, it's a bit hasty to make judgements in only two-three days if the Solens/MKPs are supposed to have such a large break-in time (80-100 hours), I'll leave them inside for a while and see what sound I come up with after they / or my ears 😀 settle in.
Non Polarized Electrolytivs vs. Polypropylenes
Hi Lucpes,
Those NPE's may be there on purpose!
Especially for the midrange polyprops have a fatiguing quality. It almost sounds like ringing.
I have totally different speakers, Klipschorns, and tried all kinds of caps. (polyprop, NPE's, polycarbonates, metallised paper, etc.).
Just this week I tried Epcos MKV B25832 for the mids and I am raving about these. Some say these are polypropylene in oil but the datasheet only claims plastic dielectric. The B25832 are expensive but don't have the boutique pricing of Audionotes copper paper in oil as the latter will cost a fortune to make up 33 µF. I only replaced the first cap in series with the midrange speaker.
I also tried the 0.47µF B25839 as an output cap for my DAC but found this one less good than the Audionote copper PIO of the same value. The B25839 is the cap rebadged by Allen Wright, and repriced also. See also:
http://db.audioasylum.com/cgi/m.mpl?forum=hug&n=19889&highlight=b25839&r=&session=
http://db.audioasylum.com/cgi/m.mpl?forum=tweaks&n=67025&highlight=b25839&r=&session=
Hi Lucpes,
Those NPE's may be there on purpose!
Especially for the midrange polyprops have a fatiguing quality. It almost sounds like ringing.
I have totally different speakers, Klipschorns, and tried all kinds of caps. (polyprop, NPE's, polycarbonates, metallised paper, etc.).
Just this week I tried Epcos MKV B25832 for the mids and I am raving about these. Some say these are polypropylene in oil but the datasheet only claims plastic dielectric. The B25832 are expensive but don't have the boutique pricing of Audionotes copper paper in oil as the latter will cost a fortune to make up 33 µF. I only replaced the first cap in series with the midrange speaker.
I also tried the 0.47µF B25839 as an output cap for my DAC but found this one less good than the Audionote copper PIO of the same value. The B25839 is the cap rebadged by Allen Wright, and repriced also. See also:
http://db.audioasylum.com/cgi/m.mpl?forum=hug&n=19889&highlight=b25839&r=&session=
http://db.audioasylum.com/cgi/m.mpl?forum=tweaks&n=67025&highlight=b25839&r=&session=
Burn-in did not help. I replaced the two shunt capacitors in the midrange with new electrolytics and the problem is gone. Confirming what I suspected: MKP may be 'good' for signall pass but sucks bigtime for bypassing/decoupling/shunt.
are electrolytics considered good?? I used some multi layers in my crossover and I've got no problems...they are cheap too...definetly better than the original electrolytics...
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