Hi Everyone,
I'm hoping some one with empirical experience can help me. I have clarity caps in my tweeter crossovers and wonder what you've tried. Pure theoreticians need not feel obligated to contribute. 🙂
I know many try to roll together more expensive sounding caps by mixing medium quality with small bypass high quality caps.
I'm wondering if anyone has tried bypassing caps with the same kind? For instance, a Janztzen superior 4uF with a Jantzen Superior 0.1uF or the likes. Is it worthwhile, or is it more worthwhile when mixing up caps?
I was thinkng of bypassing the Clarity's with other clarity's, but their bypass caps are expensive, like $30 for 0.1uF. I'm trying out Audyn True Coppers right now, at about half the cost of the CC's. Still about 5 days short of their break-in period.
Thanks,
Erik
I'm hoping some one with empirical experience can help me. I have clarity caps in my tweeter crossovers and wonder what you've tried. Pure theoreticians need not feel obligated to contribute. 🙂
I know many try to roll together more expensive sounding caps by mixing medium quality with small bypass high quality caps.
I'm wondering if anyone has tried bypassing caps with the same kind? For instance, a Janztzen superior 4uF with a Jantzen Superior 0.1uF or the likes. Is it worthwhile, or is it more worthwhile when mixing up caps?
I was thinkng of bypassing the Clarity's with other clarity's, but their bypass caps are expensive, like $30 for 0.1uF. I'm trying out Audyn True Coppers right now, at about half the cost of the CC's. Still about 5 days short of their break-in period.
Thanks,
Erik
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Erik,
I don't know if this will help you , but Dave Rosgaard (Dave R) and I experimented with bypass caps several years ago.We used Poly bi-pass caps on the large value electrolytic caps on one set of speakers and all Poly Caps on an identical pair of speakers. This was done at an event at Audire Audio some years back and the 40+ people taking part were split 50/50 on which was which. If you think it helps, by all means do it......If you don't, save your money!
Best Regards,
TerryO
Hi Terry,
Useful information, thank you. Where were the electrolytics? And did you compare with the electrolytics by themselves?
Erik
Useful information, thank you. Where were the electrolytics? And did you compare with the electrolytics by themselves?
Erik
It was the same crossover and the electrolytics had the poly bypass caps soldered in parallel and the Poly caps also had the same value poly bypass caps in parallel. This was approached with a fair amount of rigor in order to maintain an even playing field. Played from the same source with a switch from "A" channel to "B" channel.
Best Regards,
TerryO
So, you demonstrated that in your experiment, there was no difference between using bypass poly's and using all poly's. Quite a bit of cost savings!
What was the uF of the electrolytics and the bypass caps?
Thanks,
Erik
What was the uF of the electrolytics and the bypass caps?
Thanks,
Erik
Hi Eric,
I don't recall what the various specific values were, but it was approached very carefully to ensure that the only difference would the type of large value caps themselves. After 20 or 30 years I would expect that the electrolytics would have drifted in value to some extent and would need to be replaced.
Best Regards,
TerryO
If bypassing a Clarity capacitor with a 0.1uF Clarity capacitor the sound will be different because the capacitance is 0.1uf greater than before. The bypasses all sound bad and to be avoid. The high frequencies are much more enjoyable without the bypass.
Don't.
If you mix cheap and expensive parts it's the same as mixing fresh and dead batteries, it all degrades to the worst part level.
If you are true DIYer and Audio Purist you'll do the contrary, only pair the best with the best.
You know smaller value caps are better than larger ones, I'd suggest you junk your, say, 10uF cap and replace it with 100 0.1uF ones in parallel, *huge* sound improvement.
But you need to keep all path lengths the same , so signal wavefront entering the cap array arrives at the other end coherent and in phase, or you'll destroy any sound stage information it carries, you will also destroy blackness.
FORGET a clarity killing PCB, even PTP wiring on terminal strips, best is to get, say, a plastic Earth Globe, glue all caps around the Equator side by side, and have end lugs converge respectively at the North or the South Pole, only guarantee all paths are the same length and wavefront arrives unbroken.
It does not actually be **a Globe** with Continents and all that, it's just an example so North, South and Equator positions are easier to grasp.
If you want to improve this, instead of plastic you can use a large glass ball which is a better insulator.
If you mix cheap and expensive parts it's the same as mixing fresh and dead batteries, it all degrades to the worst part level.
If you are true DIYer and Audio Purist you'll do the contrary, only pair the best with the best.
You know smaller value caps are better than larger ones, I'd suggest you junk your, say, 10uF cap and replace it with 100 0.1uF ones in parallel, *huge* sound improvement.
But you need to keep all path lengths the same , so signal wavefront entering the cap array arrives at the other end coherent and in phase, or you'll destroy any sound stage information it carries, you will also destroy blackness.
FORGET a clarity killing PCB, even PTP wiring on terminal strips, best is to get, say, a plastic Earth Globe, glue all caps around the Equator side by side, and have end lugs converge respectively at the North or the South Pole, only guarantee all paths are the same length and wavefront arrives unbroken.
It does not actually be **a Globe** with Continents and all that, it's just an example so North, South and Equator positions are easier to grasp.
If you want to improve this, instead of plastic you can use a large glass ball which is a better insulator.
What are you trying to accomplish with a bypass capacitor? If you're trying to mitigate the effects of ESR, then the most effective way is to use several capacitors of the same value. For instance, you might use two 5 uF caps in parallel to make a 10 uF cap. Using a 9.9 and a 0.1 really doesn't do anything for you in the audible spectrum, because that 0.1 uF cap has an impedance of something like -80i at 20,000 hz, and it only goes up with lower frequencies. Basically there's nothing important going through it at any significant level. If we were dealing with radio frequencies things would be different, but we aren't.
So, to answer your question, I think your capacitors should be the same type: in fact, they should be identical capacitors.
So, to answer your question, I think your capacitors should be the same type: in fact, they should be identical capacitors.
Dear Mr. Tuantran,
If you can hear a tonal difference that 0.1uF makes, then my recommendation, based on The Latest Phycho-Acoustic Data is: "Don't do it".
I would recommend that you apply to "Ripley's Believe it or Not" for the most impressive human hearing in the World! (If, OTOH, you aren't human, then all bets are off!)
Thank you for a wonderful opinion that evidently came right off the top of your head.
Best Regards,
TerryO
Thank you for providing us with wonderful information that is very difficult to find! I would add that speakers, with the exception of Planar or Electrostatic Speakers should utilize mono-directional resistors in the crossover. The purpose is to get all the sound out of the speaker through the drivers, not bouncing around within the cabinet! This is often overlooked, even by experienced Professional Designers!
Do your speakers have "Balls?"
Best Regards,
TerryO
My experience is not to try by-passing any electrolytic with a PP, either metallised or film/foil. The mismatch in ESR ( high in the electro ; low in the PP ) causes a slight phase shift that usually occurs in the treble, and can kill treble detail or suck tone out of that area, or make things sound harsh. I most recently made this mistake when trying to by-pass an Elna Cerafine on the cathode of a shunt valve ( KT88 ) in a shunt-regulated power supply for my amps. The by-pass cap was something like a Mundorf ZN film/foil. I was actually able to simulate the problem on LT Spice, using both caps in parallel in the model, and evaluating the Zout of the shunt supply - you could see a slope in the output impedance in the high treble.
You can by-pass polyprop metallised caps with film-foil polyprop types and get extra transparency - probably also OK to try two different types of film as long as the ESR is comparable . Quite often it pays to use a fairly good-sized value on the 'better' cap, like say 30uF PP metallised plus 4.7uF PP film/foil, not just a v.small film/foil. It can also work to combine PP metallised plus paper-in-oil, but needs a 'suck it & see' approach.
You can by-pass polyprop metallised caps with film-foil polyprop types and get extra transparency - probably also OK to try two different types of film as long as the ESR is comparable . Quite often it pays to use a fairly good-sized value on the 'better' cap, like say 30uF PP metallised plus 4.7uF PP film/foil, not just a v.small film/foil. It can also work to combine PP metallised plus paper-in-oil, but needs a 'suck it & see' approach.
Hi JMF,
In theory, of course, changing the capacitance will change the frequency response. However in these cases the effect of that will be so small it will be unnoticable, and actually reduce the error in measured vs. labeled values.
A larger change may occur from a change in the total ESR though. Try making some 2nd order filters in XSim or similar, and play around with bypass caps, I think you'll get a different perspective.
Have you tried any bypass caps? I'd love to hear your experience, what caps were the main, which were bypass? What drivers?
Thanks!
Erik
Interesting. I am bypassing Clarity MR with Audyn True Coppers and I'm having the same experience you did. The ESR on the two lines of caps is different, but not sure how much it matters. The Clarity's run around 0.3 Ohms while the Audyn's run about 0.01 or less.
I will let the Audyn's break in some more before I remove them. So far this experiment has not gone the right way. It's not so bad it will run me or my cats out of the room, but when the Clarity MR's finally broke in I was getting goose bumps. Gone now.
Best,
Erik
Hi Butterfield!
I didn't think I needed to mitigate the ESR. I'm just going by empirical trial here. I think you are right though, so far bypassing the Clarity MR' with the Audyn True Copper has not been a complete success. I was not expecting to find such a huge difference in the ESR of film caps though. I thought they would be much closer, like 0.2 to 0.4 Ohms. This was a learning experience. 🙂 Shame the Audyn's aren't cheaper or come in larger uFs. I'd like to try them by themselves to compare. I hear a lot of good thing about copper foil caps.
Best,
Erik
So I've had 2 Clarity 400V MR's (4uF and 12uF) in series in my tweeter filter for about 3 weeks. When they were broken in I added Audyn True Copper 0.1uF bypass caps. They've been in for about 4 days, using alligator clips.
When the Clarity's were breaking in there was a liquid midrange that gives me goosebumps. Not sure what that means, if goosebumps are good or bad, but they are there. This disappeared the moment the Audyn's went in, but were exchanged by more noticeable upper treble, such as a brush on a cymbal. After breaking in for 4 days, I removed the Audyn's and got the magic back.
According to DATS, the Audyn's have a ridiculously low ESR, less than 10 mOhms, vs. 300ish mOhms for the two much larger Claritys.
When the Clarity's were breaking in there was a liquid midrange that gives me goosebumps. Not sure what that means, if goosebumps are good or bad, but they are there. This disappeared the moment the Audyn's went in, but were exchanged by more noticeable upper treble, such as a brush on a cymbal. After breaking in for 4 days, I removed the Audyn's and got the magic back.
According to DATS, the Audyn's have a ridiculously low ESR, less than 10 mOhms, vs. 300ish mOhms for the two much larger Claritys.
Erik,
Do you have the third order crossover type for your tweeter? Why do you use a non standard value 4uF capacitor instead of a standard value 3.9uF capacitor for your crossover if the difference is only 0.1uF ?
Bypassing a medium quality capacitor with a small value, higher quality capacitor will increase detail in the upper treble but it's a harsh treble. You may like the sound at first time but you may not like it after a long period of time listening to it. Some people can notice the difference after bypassing a capacitor with a very small value capacitor. Tony Gee at Humble Homemade HiFi was able to hear the difference after he bypassed a 12.6uF Mundorf MCap Supreme with a 0.01uF Vishhay MKP1837. The difference is noticeable but we can not measure it. I will continue with a better way to increase the detail in upper treble and the reason I do not choose bypassing a capacitor with another capacitor.
Tuan Tran
Do you have the third order crossover type for your tweeter? Why do you use a non standard value 4uF capacitor instead of a standard value 3.9uF capacitor for your crossover if the difference is only 0.1uF ?
Bypassing a medium quality capacitor with a small value, higher quality capacitor will increase detail in the upper treble but it's a harsh treble. You may like the sound at first time but you may not like it after a long period of time listening to it. Some people can notice the difference after bypassing a capacitor with a very small value capacitor. Tony Gee at Humble Homemade HiFi was able to hear the difference after he bypassed a 12.6uF Mundorf MCap Supreme with a 0.01uF Vishhay MKP1837. The difference is noticeable but we can not measure it. I will continue with a better way to increase the detail in upper treble and the reason I do not choose bypassing a capacitor with another capacitor.
Tuan Tran
Hi all, old thread but I felt I had to add my recent experience.
Bought a couple of highly rated:
0.022uF 600V Miflex KPCU-01 Copper Foil Paper / Polypropylene in Oil Capacitors
To bypass my standard:
10uF 400Vdc Jantzen Standard Z-Cap
I soldered them on to my B&W 601 S2 which already have pretty sharp tweeters only to remove them immediately. I did this twice, two listening sessions, thinking I had to give them a chance. But I just couldn't.
Negative impressions:
- Soundstage opened up way too much, music surrounded me, instruments were no longer focused, I could no longer pinpoint their exact position.
- Voices took the backstage, slightly drowned behind the music taking over the forefront. Songs no longer felt little the artist was in my living room.
The only pro:
- listening to Radiohead's Weird Fishes (from the basement session), the high pitch electric guitar on the right channel kicking in at 4:10 just blew me away, had never heard it with such detail before. Felt like it was being played in the room. But sadly at the expense of the entire cohesion of this beautiful track.
So I've learned my lesson, no bypass for me, but may well upgrade my crossover capacitors again to higher quality ones.
Bought a couple of highly rated:
0.022uF 600V Miflex KPCU-01 Copper Foil Paper / Polypropylene in Oil Capacitors
To bypass my standard:
10uF 400Vdc Jantzen Standard Z-Cap
I soldered them on to my B&W 601 S2 which already have pretty sharp tweeters only to remove them immediately. I did this twice, two listening sessions, thinking I had to give them a chance. But I just couldn't.
Negative impressions:
- Soundstage opened up way too much, music surrounded me, instruments were no longer focused, I could no longer pinpoint their exact position.
- Voices took the backstage, slightly drowned behind the music taking over the forefront. Songs no longer felt little the artist was in my living room.
The only pro:
- listening to Radiohead's Weird Fishes (from the basement session), the high pitch electric guitar on the right channel kicking in at 4:10 just blew me away, had never heard it with such detail before. Felt like it was being played in the room. But sadly at the expense of the entire cohesion of this beautiful track.
So I've learned my lesson, no bypass for me, but may well upgrade my crossover capacitors again to higher quality ones.
