Most resistor decade boxes (the lab quality ones) use switches that don't contribute noise or emf effects. There are thousands of these things floating around. Mind you, a new one does cost over $2K USD or CND - take your pick. I've repaired more than a couple at the calibration lab I worked at.
Shallco makes a really good decade box, along many others. Yes, these switches are not easily operated even with the knob. Without a knob it would be doubtful anyone could operate it without a tool (like vise-grips).
I would be surprised if there weren't relays out there that are as good as far as a connection is concerned. They might pick up some impulse from the coil circuit, but that's about it as far as I can see. I haven't tried mercury whetted relays, but I have some nice octal socketed ones I should try some day. John, did you ever put your finger on what you didn't like about these? Relays, not reed relays.
Now for the real question. John, when was the last time you evaluated the Bybee devices? The first time you evaluated the Bybee devices isn't at all important.
-Chris
Shallco makes a really good decade box, along many others. Yes, these switches are not easily operated even with the knob. Without a knob it would be doubtful anyone could operate it without a tool (like vise-grips).
I would be surprised if there weren't relays out there that are as good as far as a connection is concerned. They might pick up some impulse from the coil circuit, but that's about it as far as I can see. I haven't tried mercury whetted relays, but I have some nice octal socketed ones I should try some day. John, did you ever put your finger on what you didn't like about these? Relays, not reed relays.
Now for the real question. John, when was the last time you evaluated the Bybee devices? The first time you evaluated the Bybee devices isn't at all important.
-Chris
I use Bybee products every day in my listening. At the moment, I have them, just watching television, in the video power power lines. When I add 4 external speakers and an amp, I use 2 Bybee purifiers in series with the amp input, as well.
I could care less whether these devices make any 'big' change for me. They made a difference when I first installed them, and I will keep them.
I could care less whether these devices make any 'big' change for me. They made a difference when I first installed them, and I will keep them.
I remember once I had to choose between two cheap headphones, as a gift for a famely member
the setup I used in the store had an ordinary analoge equaliser connected
I made various small changes on the eq, and switched back and forth between eq and bypassed
on one I couldn't hear much difference, and on the other I could
so I simply chose the headphones where I could hear difference
it was quite simple, really
a friend of mine once performed a simple blind test on me
in the end everything sounded like crap
the setup I used in the store had an ordinary analoge equaliser connected
I made various small changes on the eq, and switched back and forth between eq and bypassed
on one I couldn't hear much difference, and on the other I could
so I simply chose the headphones where I could hear difference
it was quite simple, really
a friend of mine once performed a simple blind test on me
in the end everything sounded like crap
Yes, that describes the Cinema Engineering switch. Looks just like a Shallco (I have quite a few of those)- big, blocky wafers, disc contacts, "leaf spring" wiper, takes a load of torque to rotate.
Hi Simon,
GR products are usually pretty good, but we didn't use their decade resistor boxes. Ours were Shallcross, so I'm afraid I'm not familiar with yours. I was going to post that we used Heathkit and Eico - just to see what would be said. It would have been pretty funny, don't you think?
What did you find with yours, or was it something you simply heard and noted? That's valid enough for me. We often only need to see one fault to write off equipment for testing purposes. That's what the various attention and do not use tags are for. The BER ones are red and should never, ever be seen in a lab.
Hi John,
I'm not saying that it doesn't matter about switches and relays, but it would be helpful to know what you have found with the relays you do use. The ones I use are always nitrogen filled (sealed of course!).
I was also not suggesting you stop using Bybee devices in your system. If you are anything like the rest of the population, you will at times unconsciously evaluate your own system. It takes something to get your attention before you would become aware that you were listening for something you felt was different, or wrong. Or, maybe not. Either way, enjoy.
-Chris
GR products are usually pretty good, but we didn't use their decade resistor boxes. Ours were Shallcross, so I'm afraid I'm not familiar with yours. I was going to post that we used Heathkit and Eico - just to see what would be said. It would have been pretty funny, don't you think?
What did you find with yours, or was it something you simply heard and noted? That's valid enough for me. We often only need to see one fault to write off equipment for testing purposes. That's what the various attention and do not use tags are for. The BER ones are red and should never, ever be seen in a lab.
Hi John,
That and the rest of your post is just shy of being useful. I've used relays by the thousands in 16 years of service, and the types of relay used is critical. Tape machines can easily have 72 relays in them - for starters. It's too bad that almost all of our music runs through these when recording beds, then a few more times as the mix is done. There is also 72 audio signal paths between the machine and console. Never mind the switches, jacks (patch bays) and outboard stuff. That's enough to keep one up all night in despair.
I'm not saying that it doesn't matter about switches and relays, but it would be helpful to know what you have found with the relays you do use. The ones I use are always nitrogen filled (sealed of course!).
I was also not suggesting you stop using Bybee devices in your system. If you are anything like the rest of the population, you will at times unconsciously evaluate your own system. It takes something to get your attention before you would become aware that you were listening for something you felt was different, or wrong. Or, maybe not. Either way, enjoy.
-Chris
Anatech, if I understand you correctly, you want to know what relays I use? Well, sealed T-05 or plastic cased, gas filled relays. Gold to gold, silver underneath, copper under that. They work OK. Silver on silver switches are better. I don't use reed or mercury relays, power relays, or open relays for low level switching.
Hi John,
Yeah, pretty much. We agree pretty closely on what to use for low signal levels. I have seen some power relays used for muting (what's that about?) by CJ. That's tube stuff.
The TO-5 cased relays are very expensive, but really reliable and cause less vibration. Good for high gain circuit areas. The gas filled are the only way to go in my book, contact plating and surfaces vary of course.
Do you use the higher coil voltage parts? I try to keep the coil current low and absorb any inductive kickback on de-energizing nicely (as in not suddenly as a straight diode will do).
I have never tried a mercury relay for anything. The effect of the mercury in saving contact wear sounds attractive, but the fact it uses a banned substance tends to restrict the use of these. I was very curious as to what you heard when trying these. Your subjective opinion has value since you do work at levels far better what can be acceptable to most people. Thoughts?
-Chris
Yeah, pretty much. We agree pretty closely on what to use for low signal levels. I have seen some power relays used for muting (what's that about?) by CJ. That's tube stuff.
The TO-5 cased relays are very expensive, but really reliable and cause less vibration. Good for high gain circuit areas. The gas filled are the only way to go in my book, contact plating and surfaces vary of course.
Do you use the higher coil voltage parts? I try to keep the coil current low and absorb any inductive kickback on de-energizing nicely (as in not suddenly as a straight diode will do).
I have never tried a mercury relay for anything. The effect of the mercury in saving contact wear sounds attractive, but the fact it uses a banned substance tends to restrict the use of these. I was very curious as to what you heard when trying these. Your subjective opinion has value since you do work at levels far better what can be acceptable to most people. Thoughts?
-Chris
Anatech, I have been using Teledyne T-05 sized relays since 1969. They work, they measure well, and they are designed to be reasonably reliable. That is why we used similar relays in the JC-80 preamp, and today in the Parasound JC-2, and the new Constellation phono preamps. They work, they work well, but IF and when I can, I think that silver on silver mil grade switches are best, and I sometimes use them.
Mercury tends to 'forgive' sound differences, but don't tell anybody, they won't believe me.
Mercury tends to 'forgive' sound differences, but don't tell anybody, they won't believe me.
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