My problem with all the threads like this is , it is glass half empty when I am a glass half full person . There are very simple tests for this . Try it , does it seem to have an effect ? Is it cost effective and easy . Gain-clone amplifiers have a simple logic to them . My heart says they can not be wrong . The problem with those is accepting the chip your are given . One can still build discrete amps with much of the gain clone philosophy . That's where it seems to come off of the rails , all or nothing .
My problem with hi fi is this . In 1957 you could buy hi fi which has never been bettered . 99% of people never knew a hi fi dealer who could put that system together ( the cost of a good motorcar as now ) . Mostly what you can buy now is if lucky just about as good and looks a bit nicer . I was very disappointed when testing a Dynaco to find how wonderful it was . I felt I had been very badly lied to . Cheap it wasn't . Price is the progress in hi fi . Seldom do components reach the 1957 standard .
I went through only mad people prefer valves ( I am OK with them , not mad keen ) . Only mad people prefer Vinyl . To a lessor extent Quad electrostatics have no bass . I remember going to Germany with a Garrard 301 , a friends 211 amplifier and was loaned a pair of ESL 57's by another exhibitor . One question which amused me by an almost angry visitor was " where is the sub woofer " to which my friend said " in the car park " . We were playing bass guitar music and De Fledermause ( Shwarzkopf ) . Both SE amps and ESL should like bumble bees fail to launch on that . The absolute reverse . I had my conventional 100 W Hitachi clones which were surprisingly similar to compare . 211 are fun and no problem in any respect . Just enough power .
The best bit . My German is not great however and with a little help from a native this was overhead from a smartly suited gentleman and I presume his wife . " This is not hi fi , be prepared for a big shock . This is very close to being real ". It will be nothing like you have ever heard not least at a hi fi show . " That's about right . A bit like being strapped into an English Electric Lightning and going vertical .
We had a problem in that show with floor to ceiling reflections . We filled the ceiling with cheap helium balloons . Problem solved . Our friend Gabriella from Wiesbaden Opera came to sing Carmen for us . We used an old RCA Living Stereo recording as it was music only . She must have hit well over 110 dB . Someone passing the room was heard to say " it could almost be real " . I heard Caruso set with a modern orchestra . It was so well done as to "almost be real " .
I often borrow nice looking cables at shows . Mostly becasue I don't want questions about cables . Nordost is one I love the look of and suspect it is not too bad , it never attracts comments either negative nor positive . At home I use by preference Heybrook cable ( obsolete ) . It is about my preferred 0.6 mm in a convenient form . DNM is an alternative . I also use a Quad 303 , again because I was seriously lied to ( test one if you doubt ) . I gave away my Hitachi clones , they are a tad better than the Quad .
My problem with hi fi is this . In 1957 you could buy hi fi which has never been bettered . 99% of people never knew a hi fi dealer who could put that system together ( the cost of a good motorcar as now ) . Mostly what you can buy now is if lucky just about as good and looks a bit nicer . I was very disappointed when testing a Dynaco to find how wonderful it was . I felt I had been very badly lied to . Cheap it wasn't . Price is the progress in hi fi . Seldom do components reach the 1957 standard .
I went through only mad people prefer valves ( I am OK with them , not mad keen ) . Only mad people prefer Vinyl . To a lessor extent Quad electrostatics have no bass . I remember going to Germany with a Garrard 301 , a friends 211 amplifier and was loaned a pair of ESL 57's by another exhibitor . One question which amused me by an almost angry visitor was " where is the sub woofer " to which my friend said " in the car park " . We were playing bass guitar music and De Fledermause ( Shwarzkopf ) . Both SE amps and ESL should like bumble bees fail to launch on that . The absolute reverse . I had my conventional 100 W Hitachi clones which were surprisingly similar to compare . 211 are fun and no problem in any respect . Just enough power .
The best bit . My German is not great however and with a little help from a native this was overhead from a smartly suited gentleman and I presume his wife . " This is not hi fi , be prepared for a big shock . This is very close to being real ". It will be nothing like you have ever heard not least at a hi fi show . " That's about right . A bit like being strapped into an English Electric Lightning and going vertical .
We had a problem in that show with floor to ceiling reflections . We filled the ceiling with cheap helium balloons . Problem solved . Our friend Gabriella from Wiesbaden Opera came to sing Carmen for us . We used an old RCA Living Stereo recording as it was music only . She must have hit well over 110 dB . Someone passing the room was heard to say " it could almost be real " . I heard Caruso set with a modern orchestra . It was so well done as to "almost be real " .
I often borrow nice looking cables at shows . Mostly becasue I don't want questions about cables . Nordost is one I love the look of and suspect it is not too bad , it never attracts comments either negative nor positive . At home I use by preference Heybrook cable ( obsolete ) . It is about my preferred 0.6 mm in a convenient form . DNM is an alternative . I also use a Quad 303 , again because I was seriously lied to ( test one if you doubt ) . I gave away my Hitachi clones , they are a tad better than the Quad .
I never expected to see this ! I suppose the internet is nearly infinite so it can happen . One swallow does not make a summer .
Solid vs Stranded guitar and speaker cables, tried some - My Les Paul Forums
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qvzsSBtT7xM
Solid vs Stranded guitar and speaker cables, tried some - My Les Paul Forums
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qvzsSBtT7xM
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Again hearsay, no measurements. i work at a job where getting information from a-b via copper wires traces etc is the main function of what I do, be it audio, instrumentation etc etc I do a lot of mil/aero medical design workand nowhere does this sort of thing come up apart from audio. if people posetd the cable specifications, scope shots etc then we could define what is answering, but they dont, they worry about skin effect, dialectric and other things that realy dont affect things at the frequencies of that audio runs at. Theye is nou doubting that interconnects with any system have to be within certain design parameters, but hersay with no metrics to back up and help understand what is going on is NOT how things get designed. The last link mentions litzs wire the effects of and use are well documented, and the companies site is not plasetered with esetoric claims.
The differences cables can make has been discussed to death on other threads and there is no disputing the wrong interconnect can be detrimental, but again all this can be measured.
The differences cables can make has been discussed to death on other threads and there is no disputing the wrong interconnect can be detrimental, but again all this can be measured.
What? There's unequivocal proof in the first post in that thread; "my mom could hear the difference"
Marce , do you have ears ? If so be brave and doubt the measurements tell you all . I didn't like CD and I was right . The measurements arrived one day . Now all of us are wise . What a shame we have to put up with this dreadful attempt at mid fi . 16 bits is plenty if asking .
Michael Gerzon said 7 times 20 kHz and said Nyquist never had hi fi in mind . I know the rest and the why . Just pleased it was though of .
I was amused over solid core for guitar amps . Rather impressed to tell the truth .
I think Stravinsky was invited to a very early hi fi demonstration of his new recordings . After careful consideration he is alleged to have said " I am no expect , maybe you need new stylus " . It wasn't the question they were asking . Bless him for that .
Measurements have one use . To verify what you make today is very similar to what you make tomorrow . The customers deserve that . I would allow if you do it to the limit of your budget you are a very good person . People deserve honest products .
I always screw up cooking because I think of it as a science . I get results good enough for nutrition . What harm to say 2% we might not know ? It makes me feel alive to want to know .
Michael Gerzon said 7 times 20 kHz and said Nyquist never had hi fi in mind . I know the rest and the why . Just pleased it was though of .
I was amused over solid core for guitar amps . Rather impressed to tell the truth .
I think Stravinsky was invited to a very early hi fi demonstration of his new recordings . After careful consideration he is alleged to have said " I am no expect , maybe you need new stylus " . It wasn't the question they were asking . Bless him for that .
Measurements have one use . To verify what you make today is very similar to what you make tomorrow . The customers deserve that . I would allow if you do it to the limit of your budget you are a very good person . People deserve honest products .
I always screw up cooking because I think of it as a science . I get results good enough for nutrition . What harm to say 2% we might not know ? It makes me feel alive to want to know .
What measurements arrived? Post them please along with the details of how and when they were made.
Still, it's completely relevant for the subject of 'burning in speaker cable'.
This says it as well as I could . I also think Nicam a better use of 16 bits . I am happy to be wrong about this as I have nothing I can buy to prove it . I would like a studio quality13 bit Nicam encoder/decoder .
The Unique Evils of Digital Audio and How to Defeat Them | Benchmark Interaction
My point about burning in a cable is give it 2% credence . You will not have disgraced yourself . I bet you will be very silent if it is proven one day . As it is not financially life changing I doubt it ever will be .
If someone says the 16 bit system was not flawed I will give up . That is like saying the statue was already in the marble . Nonsense .
BTW , I love digital . It is the only way to perform magic . A light touch when possible .
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bairi2SbTO0
I hope soon to do some in depth tests of a Revox A77 . If anything interesting come up I will post it somewhere . I will be measuring - 40 dB - 20 db - 5 dB and + 5 dB . If I can borrow a Dolby SR unit I will bolt it on . A Sony PCMF1 also if I can .
The Unique Evils of Digital Audio and How to Defeat Them | Benchmark Interaction
My point about burning in a cable is give it 2% credence . You will not have disgraced yourself . I bet you will be very silent if it is proven one day . As it is not financially life changing I doubt it ever will be .
If someone says the 16 bit system was not flawed I will give up . That is like saying the statue was already in the marble . Nonsense .
BTW , I love digital . It is the only way to perform magic . A light touch when possible .
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bairi2SbTO0
I hope soon to do some in depth tests of a Revox A77 . If anything interesting come up I will post it somewhere . I will be measuring - 40 dB - 20 db - 5 dB and + 5 dB . If I can borrow a Dolby SR unit I will bolt it on . A Sony PCMF1 also if I can .
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In the link you gave, Benchmark seem to say that the 16 bit system (when done properly) is not flawed:nigel pearson said:
It is unfortunate that the title of their piece may draw attention to 'digital evils' when most of the piece is actually about how they have been succcessfuly defeated by good engineering.
You offered to 'give up'?
yes I have ears, I have also worked withing design departments for over quarter of a century so understand design cycles what is important and how things are designed. And for the past 4+ years have been doing the PCB's for a variety of communication systems, radios VIS and even now the headphones (I specialise in mil/areo medical PCB design, especially SMPS's). I work for a company where we do the PCB's for a whole host of companies covering all areas of electronics, from audio to large hadron colliders to guitar ampsto mobile devices, PC motherboardsetc etc. the only place where cable burn in is mentionedwithout loud guffaws is in the work of esoteric audio.
I will give cable burn in some credence when a explanation based on science and physics is put forward and backed up by measurments, and if that happens no I wont be silent, I will admit I was wrong, but that is not going to happen.
Please note I do not dispute that cables due to thier nature can have an effect on signals even at audio frequencies, in fact it was DF96 above who on another thread gave me somelinks to the effects of cables etc on low frequency signal transmission( I understand high frequency signal transmission quite well) in another long thread where we discused cables and their possible effect on sound.
measurements are a criticalpart of the design and development cycle, we are creating audio repreduction equipement NOT instruments.
I will give cable burn in some credence when a explanation based on science and physics is put forward and backed up by measurments, and if that happens no I wont be silent, I will admit I was wrong, but that is not going to happen.
Please note I do not dispute that cables due to thier nature can have an effect on signals even at audio frequencies, in fact it was DF96 above who on another thread gave me somelinks to the effects of cables etc on low frequency signal transmission( I understand high frequency signal transmission quite well) in another long thread where we discused cables and their possible effect on sound.
measurements are a criticalpart of the design and development cycle, we are creating audio repreduction equipement NOT instruments.
I have no idea what statues in marble (or not) have to do with 'burning-in' speaker cables.
Fortunately, good engineering does not require genius. Competence is often sufficient, and always necessary.
Arguments about cables often seem to come down to statements along the lines of: "We don't fully understand dark matter and the Higgs mechanism, so therefore we don't understand cables either." The foolishness of such a statement ought to be obvious. Note that such things are generally said by people whose knowledge of cables is about as detailed as their knowledge of quantum field theory.
Fortunately, good engineering does not require genius. Competence is often sufficient, and always necessary.
Arguments about cables often seem to come down to statements along the lines of: "We don't fully understand dark matter and the Higgs mechanism, so therefore we don't understand cables either." The foolishness of such a statement ought to be obvious. Note that such things are generally said by people whose knowledge of cables is about as detailed as their knowledge of quantum field theory.
Marce I never doubted you for one minute . I just doubt the commersial forces that might prove what you ask . Is it a comfort blanket not to prove something ? Somethings will never be proved yet affect our lives . Reason , because no one will be able to make any money from it . Not enough to cover expenses even . It is a giant leap to say they don't exist .
With global warming the mountain will come to the sage ( these days I dare not use the accepted word ) . No agreement on that , however that ice keeps on melting . I am excited about it , however I dread how some lives will be affected . I have no idea if it is true . I just suspect answers will come and soon .
This was never about cables , this was about an open mind . The thing we should prove is unprovable I suspect ? In philosophy the debate of an empty box is a non question to some ( me ) . I am glad in Audio we do debate the ridiculous ( not the absurd ) .
With global warming the mountain will come to the sage ( these days I dare not use the accepted word ) . No agreement on that , however that ice keeps on melting . I am excited about it , however I dread how some lives will be affected . I have no idea if it is true . I just suspect answers will come and soon .
This was never about cables , this was about an open mind . The thing we should prove is unprovable I suspect ? In philosophy the debate of an empty box is a non question to some ( me ) . I am glad in Audio we do debate the ridiculous ( not the absurd ) .
10 % inspiration , 90% perspiration ?
Competence is very underestimated and extremely rare . Bravo .
DF , you might be one and never realized ?
The statue is saying it was always there .
Regarding signal transmission down cables, it has been a big deal to inductry since the telegraph first apeared and Oliver Heaviside came up with his equations, with todays high speed data requirements and the thirst for faster data and more bandwidth their is a lot of reseach going on into signal transmission (a lot). Dont forget the traces on a PCB are a cable of sorts. There is reseach into super conductors, signals wizzing round IC'setc etc, contrary to what many may think signal transmission is a big area of reseach. As my area is PCB design, high speed I am lucky that I am often dragged of to Paderborn or Munich to have my brains addled by the guys who work on the simulation software for signal transmission, EMC and power delivery analysis. There is an afull lot I dont know about signal transmission but I study it almost religiously as i is a big part of my job I also then have to teach high speed and SMPS layout o other PCB designers.
DF96 dont forget hard work, frstration and project managers!
DF96 dont forget hard work, frstration and project managers!
Marce you might be one of my geniuses . Keep up the good work .
I am never sure if Stephenson was a genius . His son was one in keeping good relations with Mr Brunell . As far as I know it was genuine friendship . Brunell's father was said to be the inventor of the mass production principle ( no idea if true , doubtless not ) .
I know how hard PCB design is . Chip design more so ( field effects ) .
I set you a challenge . Suspend your disbelief and brake your rules . See if you can find a reason . Nordost told me it forced gases out left in manufacture . I have no idea if it is true . Their parent company is an aerospace manufacturer . The prices they get are typical of that industry . They are not fools . I bet you anything if you succeed you will find applications away from Audio .
I am never sure if Stephenson was a genius . His son was one in keeping good relations with Mr Brunell . As far as I know it was genuine friendship . Brunell's father was said to be the inventor of the mass production principle ( no idea if true , doubtless not ) .
I know how hard PCB design is . Chip design more so ( field effects ) .
I set you a challenge . Suspend your disbelief and brake your rules . See if you can find a reason . Nordost told me it forced gases out left in manufacture . I have no idea if it is true . Their parent company is an aerospace manufacturer . The prices they get are typical of that industry . They are not fools . I bet you anything if you succeed you will find applications away from Audio .
My rules don't move very fast so no need to apply brakes.nigel pearson said:
Let's just assume for one crazy second that applying certain magic signals to a cable can expel gases from it (metal or insulation?). Three questions arise:
1. by what mechanism are the gases ejected?
2. what does the lack of gases do to the cable electrical properties?
3. how would those changes affect audio signal to a noticeable extent?
Given that the best way to expel gases is by heating under low pressure, why not do that instead? I'm sure there could be a market for vacuum-treated cable.
Given that gases in the metal would only produce minor changes in resistance, and gases in the insulation would only produce minor changes in permittivity, how can expelling gases affect the cable performance?
Given that it would take significant changes in cable electrical performance to make any difference to audio signals (given their normal electrical environment e.g. low source impedance driving the cable) how can minor changes, even if present, do anything?
So we have a set of unanswered questions which nevertheless claim to provide an explanation of an effect which has never been demonstrated and so may not even exist, and never seen in other more sensitive applications of electronics. Can you see why the burden of proof lies with those making these claims? Talk of 'open minds' is just silly. Open minds may be needed when looking for explanations of a proven effect, but that is not the case here.
For most domestic use of audio cables you could double the resistance or double the capacitance and all you would get is a minor change in frequency response. This may be audible, but is likely to be smaller than the effect of moving your head a few inches, and much smaller than the studio processing differences between two different recordings. It is difficult to convey in polite words just how silly this all seems to someone who knows anything about electromagnetism.
How true Brian . The public can make very good cables for pennies . The connectors often the big deal . The slightly less fancy ones at that .
In about the year 1600 the microscope came into use . Girolamo Fracastoro put forward "a " germ theory 50 years before microscopes . Needless to say he was ridiculed . This took until the late 1800's to be accepted . Now only the mad would disbelieve it . His words perhaps tell us why . It didn't make him wrong .
"I call fomites [from the Latin fomes, meaning "tinder"] such things as clothes, linen, etc., which although not themselves corrupt, can nevertheless foster the essential seeds of the contagion and thus cause infection."
Even Pasture was ridiculed for similar ideas ( 1850 ) .
We as people have not changed . There are more of us and we communicate faster . That helps .
DF 96 . As I said I don't know about gases .
In about the year 1600 the microscope came into use . Girolamo Fracastoro put forward "a " germ theory 50 years before microscopes . Needless to say he was ridiculed . This took until the late 1800's to be accepted . Now only the mad would disbelieve it . His words perhaps tell us why . It didn't make him wrong .
"I call fomites [from the Latin fomes, meaning "tinder"] such things as clothes, linen, etc., which although not themselves corrupt, can nevertheless foster the essential seeds of the contagion and thus cause infection."
Even Pasture was ridiculed for similar ideas ( 1850 ) .
We as people have not changed . There are more of us and we communicate faster . That helps .
DF 96 . As I said I don't know about gases .
As I don't want to loose an idea that just occurred please accept not awaiting a reply .
I am not a mathematician . I am very lucky to have friends who are . i = the square root of minus 1 seems as daft a concept as one could get . It certainly is hard to imagine it in nature . It came out of the mind of a mathematician .
I am told it is very useful for keeping me safe on an aircraft in flight . I don't mind it is an " imaginary " number as I like safe . Doubtless -1 is not the debate , as I said I am not a mathematician .
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Imaginary_number
I am not a mathematician . I am very lucky to have friends who are . i = the square root of minus 1 seems as daft a concept as one could get . It certainly is hard to imagine it in nature . It came out of the mind of a mathematician .
I am told it is very useful for keeping me safe on an aircraft in flight . I don't mind it is an " imaginary " number as I like safe . Doubtless -1 is not the debate , as I said I am not a mathematician .
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Imaginary_number
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