Johnloudb, at least you're honest about it.
There's something though that I find quite amusing. There's a huge discrepancy between the number of people who said at some point that they'd like to find out the truth, and the number of people who, besides mudslinging and pseudo-theorizing, have done anything at all concretely towards finding out the truth. There's a lot of "you prove it" "no you prove it" and armchair speculation. Nothing wrong with it, as long as speculation goes. Just don't mistake it for science. And this applies to the nay sayers just as well. The burden of proof is a man-made concept, not a law that someone who claims something exists has to prove that it exists. Similarly, he who claim it does not exist, as soon as he utters the words, is not excused from proving that it does not exist. Of course the former has the easier job, because he needs only a sample of one. (Yes I like hearing myself typing, eh, how about that?)
I don't have much hope that anything will get resolved in this thread. Too much talking and not enough doing. It reminds me of a favourite good-bad-ugly-ism: "If you're gonna shoot, shoot! Don't talk!"
There's something though that I find quite amusing. There's a huge discrepancy between the number of people who said at some point that they'd like to find out the truth, and the number of people who, besides mudslinging and pseudo-theorizing, have done anything at all concretely towards finding out the truth. There's a lot of "you prove it" "no you prove it" and armchair speculation. Nothing wrong with it, as long as speculation goes. Just don't mistake it for science. And this applies to the nay sayers just as well. The burden of proof is a man-made concept, not a law that someone who claims something exists has to prove that it exists. Similarly, he who claim it does not exist, as soon as he utters the words, is not excused from proving that it does not exist. Of course the former has the easier job, because he needs only a sample of one. (Yes I like hearing myself typing, eh, how about that?)
I don't have much hope that anything will get resolved in this thread. Too much talking and not enough doing. It reminds me of a favourite good-bad-ugly-ism: "If you're gonna shoot, shoot! Don't talk!"
We cross posted.
John, I find that one of the great ways to deny one's humanity is to deny his personal/individual experience.
Although I am not one that has ever tried and hence heard difference in cables based on burn-in or lack thereof, I cannot say with 100% confidence that nobody can. Those who you call phds or techs or whatever, have obviously done some science reading in their past. I don't know how many phd's you know or have ever met, but my experience with this species is that after they completed their ordeal they often suffer of a side effect. A weird condition by which they seem to be highly sure and knowledgeable of almost anything there is to be known about the world we live in. It could be cooking, or movies, cars and engines, religions, politics... They also have exquisite tastes and an utter disgust of all that are less "intelligent."
And so it goes... (how about this fora diyaudio end of post catch all phrase 😉 )
John, I find that one of the great ways to deny one's humanity is to deny his personal/individual experience.
Although I am not one that has ever tried and hence heard difference in cables based on burn-in or lack thereof, I cannot say with 100% confidence that nobody can. Those who you call phds or techs or whatever, have obviously done some science reading in their past. I don't know how many phd's you know or have ever met, but my experience with this species is that after they completed their ordeal they often suffer of a side effect. A weird condition by which they seem to be highly sure and knowledgeable of almost anything there is to be known about the world we live in. It could be cooking, or movies, cars and engines, religions, politics... They also have exquisite tastes and an utter disgust of all that are less "intelligent."
And so it goes... (how about this fora diyaudio end of post catch all phrase 😉 )
Some of the threads here point towards such evidence. Any number of diyers who just finished their latest creation are convinced it's the best thing ever as they likely have zero long term aural memory. It is also one of the reasons why so many genuinely believe that all amps, caps, wire etc sound the same. In the absence of long term aural memory any improvements in the audio chain become futile and the "audiophiles" involved tend to concentrate either on obvious stuff (hum, hiss with an ear right at the tweeter and the volume all the way up) or meaningless objective measurements. If you don't have or cannot train your aural memory a different hobby may be in order.
My experience is that you often have preconceptions that this or that will be better (or worse) and I am sure that is something we all experience.
You swap a part, an opamp etc and give it a listen... is it better, isn't it better, yes/no and so on.
The only way is long term listening... is the experience better over a long period. If you swap a part and don't like it don't be to hasty... leave it and come back to it.
And if you think it's better, leave it a while, then put the "old" one back. Sometimes that then seems better lol
For me it's a long term thing, and as to listening to hum and hiss etc... well there shouldn't be any... I listen to the music first an foremost.
OK, John, isn't reason to don't believe to you, but I have several questions: at first - which is current density for this phenomenon ? Which must be minimal lenght ? Summary lenght of traces on PCB is much more longer than wires in equipment, are you using silver PCB ? Or silver or gold plated PCB ? After which time is this phenomenon detectable ? Are you using devices with silver outlets ?
Haha, I also didn't like silver cables some years ago, now I know why, the silver just don't hide flaws in the system. Your description of the difference between the two are very good. 😉
I know many will crack themselves about this but take it as a hint, if you learn to see with your ears, you are not limited by aural memory any more.
As said, the test wasn't about burn-in, but the silver cables were compared with the same copper cables both times.
Now you understand why it is important to know this and why proper testing can be so time consuming. 🙂
It would be foolish to deny it but equally foolish to use it as an excuse for not testing. Rather learn from it.
Andre. Your answer to my, "What about denying that one can be fooled?" is
Why would anyone use that as an excuse for not testing? The FACT that you can be fooled is the very reason why testing (DBTs) is required.
And it's only 100 euros!
There really is no limit to gullibility. And in this case, preying on people's concerns about health and injury, this transcends "amusing ripoff" into the category of "seriously immoral."
Jeez, Aalt-Jouk too? I know the guy, thought he was fair and straight. What happened to honesty and morality??
jd
It was meant more like 'an excuse for not even trying to listen or experiment'.
I understand the need for DBT's to proof something, it doesn't automatically mean that all sighted tests are worthless, especially after several blind tests just confirmed your sighted test results.
Sorry Andre, but yes, a sighted test is worthless.
It's as simple as that.
Magura 🙂
Let me answer this way. What colour is the moving dot when you first see this and after a few seconds of staring at the middle. 😉
Anyone can be fooled, it's how our brains work. 😀
So the audio hobby is only for those that can hear the "dramatic" effects of nonexistant phenomena? I was told that if I could stand to listen to CD's I should be doing something else, I call that arrogance certainly at the same level as the off hand dismissal of some of the metalurgical references as being irrelevent.
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