ShinOBIWAN said:
I don't agree. There are hundreds of successful mediocre products. Microsoft Vista comes to mind.
ShinOBIWAN said:
That attitude is the number one reason I don't do audio for a living.
Here's an example of this. I know someone who went into business selling hand built subwoofers. He used quality drivers and finished the enclosures with loving care. When it came time to sell them, everyone expected to pay 25% of what his asking prices were. In his mind, the use of expensive parts and a real wood finish justified the additional markup. In the customers mind, they expected to pay maybe $100 more than what it would cost to buy a junk subwoofer at Circuit City.
And that's why audio is dying. It's a race to the bottom, where people are more concerned with fit & finish than the sound.
And THAT'S why I'm in software, not audio. I *personally* know MULTI MILLIONAIRES who got filthy rich off of buggy, unreliable software. Software that barely worked, but was UNIQUE or filled a niche that wasn't served by the competition. If Dr Geddes was in Silicon Valley instead of Detroit, he'd be a billionaire and no one here would know who he is. He'd probably have a couple of IPOs under his belt and a big engineering team somewhere in Cupertino.
ShinOBIWAN said:
I visited their offices a dozen times, and I always got the vibe that their OEM work paid the bills. There just aren't many DIYers out here, and they're an unforgiving and demanding clientèle. They want everything for the lowest price, and their expectations of quality are unrivaled. It's just a merciless market.
ShinOBIWAN said:
Again, I can name a hundred businesses which sell a crummy product and are doing just fine. Look at the supplement industry; the majority of over-the-counter weight loss products are complete snake oil, yet they sell year after year.
Audio is unique - it's an industry which rewards flash over substance, cosmetics over acoustics.
If I were selling these, I'd skip the DIY crowd entirely, and focus my efforts on the custom home theater crowd or the prosound crowd.
markus76 said:
Markus
In answer to an intelligent comment: No.
Both diffraction and reflection yield signals that are highly correlated to the source - thats what makes them so dangerous. But, notice that I said "highly correlated" because they are begining to be "less" correlated to the source. As these reflections diffract or reflect again, and then again, the correlation drops even more. There is no clear cut demarcation as to the switch to them becoming positive. As the time lag increases the ear becomes less sensitive to these correlated signals and they become less correlated themselves. The best that one can say is that you want to minimize the early ones as much as possible. In small spaces this is tough, but the more you do the better the result. There is simply no way that you are going to get the early diffraction and reflection effects in a small room to zero in the first 20 ms. The greater the lag and the lower the level the better. Directionality helps out a great deal. As does sound absorption behind and to the near sides of the speakers. Duffusing the first reflections appears to be a positive thing (floor, ceiling, side walls). Its all about the extremes that you are willing to go to to achieve the end result.
Its true that the audio market is largely driven by numbers and aesthetics. DIY'ers might not be so susceptible to that but I think everyone likes something that's well built as well as design correctly.
You have to ask yourself is that worth what I paid. To some it isn't and to others it is.
Personally, and you know this already, I'd be disappointed to have paid money for what the OP received from Earl. Others don't see it as a problem. That's fine but drawing parallels to products from other industries doesn't justify anything for me. Were not talking about products external to this thread or how much money there is to be made elsewhere and if we are we're wasting our time.
Completely agreed but virtually all business sectors are pretty merciless as you put it and if they aren't they soon will be.
As a fairly accurate generalisation, customers demand the best for the cheapest price and then complain when that doesn't happen. However I don't think asking Earl to improve upon what's been shown in this thread is asking for the best. Its asking for simple QC.
If he doesn't improve it then you can bet he'll be hanging out with Dan. The customers will see to that so we're influencing very little here.
Step back and take a look at the larger picture here. People just want something that's OK. I think that's perfectly reasonable and Earls venture will benefit from it. Ignore this and well, he'll fail eventually and you can add another to the list of DIY casualties.
Earl is already heavily involved in the home theater side of things I believe. His distortion metrics are widely respected throughout the industry.
I'm feeling honored to have given you the opportunity to have all those nice little off-topic discussions 
But there was something else - right:
This blue green brown stuff is Bondo filler. It's a real mess and cures within seconds if you mix it with to much hardener. But even if you get it right you only have 5 minutes to get the job done.
After sanding (grid 80) it looks like this:
Then I drilled all holes needed for the screws of the back board. Here's why:
The screws act as a spacer so the enclosure can easily be painted. This is after one coat of sanding sealer (that stuff has a consistency like milk):
After 2 hours and filling same more holes with Bondo I sanded everything with sanding paper 220 grid and applied another coat of sanding sealer:
Now the box is mostly sealed but there are still areas where the MDF is matt which means "Apply more sealer" - tomorrow...
Best, Markus
P.S. The white stuff on the bottom of the box in the last picture is normal wood filler. Just wanted to test what the difference to Bondo will be.
But there was something else - right:
An externally hosted image should be here but it was not working when we last tested it.
This blue green brown stuff is Bondo filler. It's a real mess and cures within seconds if you mix it with to much hardener. But even if you get it right you only have 5 minutes to get the job done.
After sanding (grid 80) it looks like this:
An externally hosted image should be here but it was not working when we last tested it.
Then I drilled all holes needed for the screws of the back board. Here's why:
An externally hosted image should be here but it was not working when we last tested it.
The screws act as a spacer so the enclosure can easily be painted. This is after one coat of sanding sealer (that stuff has a consistency like milk):
An externally hosted image should be here but it was not working when we last tested it.
After 2 hours and filling same more holes with Bondo I sanded everything with sanding paper 220 grid and applied another coat of sanding sealer:
An externally hosted image should be here but it was not working when we last tested it.
Now the box is mostly sealed but there are still areas where the MDF is matt which means "Apply more sealer" - tomorrow...
Best, Markus
P.S. The white stuff on the bottom of the box in the last picture is normal wood filler. Just wanted to test what the difference to Bondo will be.
ShinOBIWAN said:
A picture is worth a thousand words. From the pictures in this thread I see that the fit & finish on the cabinets wasn't up to the standard you'd see from cabinets offered by Parts Express. The PE cabinets are built by a machine, not a human.
If you used Parts Express cabinets, it wouldn't work properly - the round over is a fundamental part of the design. So buy some bondo, and fill in the gap. Simple as that.
Brett posted pictures showing that the finish on the INSIDE OF THE CABINETS wasn't flawless. Again, this doesn't effect the sound.
Last but not least, the holes weren't perfectly centered. Big deal - drill new holes.
As I type this post, I'm listening to a finished product (the Summas). You guys will be besides yourself once you HEAR the finished product. It's the last speaker you'l ever buy.
$1200 is a SCREAMING DEAL here guys.
If I'm not mistaken, Dr Geddes are the only ones here who have actually HEARD the finished product. Don't let a little wood putty or bondo scare you off, these things are a STEAL.
Well, badman, I figure Brett may have made a mistake.
I thought as the discussion went by, Gosh, why didn't he bargain Earl down some more? There's nothing here that can't be easily fixed, those throats have been recast into the guide, the critical first inch or so is clean, cut off the curly bits, smooth out the backs, and stick em to baffles. Bummy lemons, but now he's got world class lemonade at a really good price.
I remember starting a small business and I think I know how Earl made his error - I made huge numbers of them, but it was before the internet so only the local folk in the business knew of them - what he's doing requires two people or a much longer schedule (which has a severe downside) and a gazillion checklists you don't even know you need, and I give him credit for not making the excuses.
Looking back, most difficult thing I found in starting the new business was getting enough sleep. All other problems paled to insignificance in comparison.
The upside to starting a business in such a public glare as this place provides is the near instantaneous feedback. It's uncomfortable, but should work well for Earl because he's a get-it-done kind of guy.
Personally, I'm I'm happy to get the speaker kit the way it is. Sure, I'd be slightly more happy if the cutting had been done with a machine, but I didn't pay the extra that will cost, either.
As somebody once said, perfection is the enemy of good enough. I've got the technology and a good price on the drivers and crossover. My all over costs, if I was going to do it all from scratch, buy the tools, have the lathe work done and rent a work shop and fix the inevitable mistakes would have been greater, not to mention the time it would have taken to get the crossover right....
Get the hell out of town Earl, have the rest with your family.
I thought as the discussion went by, Gosh, why didn't he bargain Earl down some more? There's nothing here that can't be easily fixed, those throats have been recast into the guide, the critical first inch or so is clean, cut off the curly bits, smooth out the backs, and stick em to baffles. Bummy lemons, but now he's got world class lemonade at a really good price.
I remember starting a small business and I think I know how Earl made his error - I made huge numbers of them, but it was before the internet so only the local folk in the business knew of them - what he's doing requires two people or a much longer schedule (which has a severe downside) and a gazillion checklists you don't even know you need, and I give him credit for not making the excuses.
Looking back, most difficult thing I found in starting the new business was getting enough sleep. All other problems paled to insignificance in comparison.
The upside to starting a business in such a public glare as this place provides is the near instantaneous feedback. It's uncomfortable, but should work well for Earl because he's a get-it-done kind of guy.
Personally, I'm I'm happy to get the speaker kit the way it is. Sure, I'd be slightly more happy if the cutting had been done with a machine, but I didn't pay the extra that will cost, either.
As somebody once said, perfection is the enemy of good enough. I've got the technology and a good price on the drivers and crossover. My all over costs, if I was going to do it all from scratch, buy the tools, have the lathe work done and rent a work shop and fix the inevitable mistakes would have been greater, not to mention the time it would have taken to get the crossover right....
Get the hell out of town Earl, have the rest with your family.
Patrick,
Maybe I'm completely clueless here and living in fantasy world but all those things are easily avoidable and wouldn't drive up the cost considerably. For example, look at the roundovers and you'll see the profile of the cut isn't in a stable plane - the bit wandered a little whilst making the pass. And the router bit itself has had too much depth applied causing the bit to dig in on the transition creating a channel. Both are easy fixes, much easier than fixing the mistake. Just run the bit along a straight edge, don't allow it to wander and set your depth stop correctly. Very simple things that would make the finished thing look much better.
I find patching up to be more effort than doing all the work myself. Someone without the correct tools to do that would disagree but that's the place where I'm coming from.
Maybe I'm completely clueless here and living in fantasy world but all those things are easily avoidable and wouldn't drive up the cost considerably. For example, look at the roundovers and you'll see the profile of the cut isn't in a stable plane - the bit wandered a little whilst making the pass. And the router bit itself has had too much depth applied causing the bit to dig in on the transition creating a channel. Both are easy fixes, much easier than fixing the mistake. Just run the bit along a straight edge, don't allow it to wander and set your depth stop correctly. Very simple things that would make the finished thing look much better.
I find patching up to be more effort than doing all the work myself. Someone without the correct tools to do that would disagree but that's the place where I'm coming from.
I think Earls biggest problem is the money issue. He worries too much whether it costs a few dollars more or less, when actually he should take more care about product quality... to protect his Summa name
I would say Earl is lucky to have you guys around, or it would have been all over by now
Maybe the major problem is that it all have gone a bit too fast
I would say Earl is lucky to have you guys around, or it would have been all over by now
Maybe the major problem is that it all have gone a bit too fast
I'm with FrankWW. I'm quite happy with my Nathan 10 kit. I've not yet had time to fully assemble it, but I did test fit most of the parts and I was pleased. I've never bought a pre-fab cabinet before so I may not have had the same expectations as Markus. I thought that the kit was a good value even if there was a lot of finish work and Dr. Geddes has been tremendously helpful in advising me of the best methods for finishing them, incorporating subwoofers, stand design, getting the updated crossover, etc.. I'll be sure to post impressions as soon as I am able to complete them (assembly should start this weekend).
Frank, hope the two side panels arrive safely. I've got the customs number if it is of assistance in tracking them.
Frank, hope the two side panels arrive safely. I've got the customs number if it is of assistance in tracking them.
FrankWW said:
Thanks Frank, I need it
New plate is on its way.
Does anybody know Ian Swett? He bought a pair of Summa's, put down a substantial deposit. They have been done for weeks now and I have tried and tried to get him to respond to my E-mails. I am concerned now that I am going away that he will E-mail and not reach me. If anyone knows him please pass on this message.
And lets not loose site of what DIY means.
gedlee said:
Thanks Frank, I need it
New plate is on its way.
Does anybody know Ian Swett? He bought a pair of Summa's, put down a substantial deposit. They have been done for weeks now and I have tried and tried to get him to respond to my E-mails. I am concerned now that I am going away that he will E-mail and not reach me. If anyone knows him please pass on this message.
And lets not loose site of what DIY means.
Just sent you his contact info.
All these complaints about fit & finish inspired me to take some pics of the Summa in my new house. As you can see, the finish is as smooth as a mirror. I intentionally shot it close up, so if there were any problems with the fit & finish, it would be completely obvious.
My camera is kind of crummy, so the colors aren't as true as they could be, but what do you expect from a three year old junk camera?
Compare the finish on the side of the Summas with the glass cabinet in the background; the Summa is actually shinier than the glass! Not too bad I'd say.
In the corner you can see my ugly ol' tapped horn.
I put a 18sound waveguide on top so you can see just how HUGE the Summas are. The 18sound isn't even HALF the size of the Summa waveguide, and it doesn't offer ANY roundover (which is essential.)
More pics in my tapped horn thread:
http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=114340&perpage=25&pagenumber=3
My camera is kind of crummy, so the colors aren't as true as they could be, but what do you expect from a three year old junk camera?
Compare the finish on the side of the Summas with the glass cabinet in the background; the Summa is actually shinier than the glass! Not too bad I'd say.
In the corner you can see my ugly ol' tapped horn.
I put a 18sound waveguide on top so you can see just how HUGE the Summas are. The 18sound isn't even HALF the size of the Summa waveguide, and it doesn't offer ANY roundover (which is essential.)
More pics in my tapped horn thread:
http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=114340&perpage=25&pagenumber=3
John
You should know by now that in my listening rooms you can't see the speakers. As far as I am concerned speakers are to be heard not seen.
You want to know something interesting: I made that paint myself. Mixed it up from pigments and binders with additives for leveling etc. Not too bad. Cost me about 1/10 of commercial paint.
And I would like to point out that fiberglass is never really flat. I have yet to see one of the cabinets that does not have waves in it. For this reason alone I think that wood is the better choice in the long run. I'm glad I tried the fiberglass and it definately has its advantages in that size, but wood is far more reasonable to work with.
On the other hand - a pair of Summas went through Katrina and are back working again. Just replaced the drivers a wala! Working again. The cabinets were unscathed after about a week under water.
Thanks.
You should know by now that in my listening rooms you can't see the speakers. As far as I am concerned speakers are to be heard not seen.
You want to know something interesting: I made that paint myself. Mixed it up from pigments and binders with additives for leveling etc. Not too bad. Cost me about 1/10 of commercial paint.
And I would like to point out that fiberglass is never really flat. I have yet to see one of the cabinets that does not have waves in it. For this reason alone I think that wood is the better choice in the long run. I'm glad I tried the fiberglass and it definately has its advantages in that size, but wood is far more reasonable to work with.
On the other hand - a pair of Summas went through Katrina and are back working again. Just replaced the drivers a wala! Working again. The cabinets were unscathed after about a week under water.
Thanks.
His partners probobably had no interest in audioShinOBIWAN said:
It's tough when partners do that. Some people have been trying to persuade me to get into the bicycle business. Basically, I try to get a feeling where others stand in terms of enthusiasm and effort put forth. If the team does not come together naturally, then it's off on the wrong foot. Having the right team together is really mostly by luck.Shin,
I am quite interested which overseas factory Wiggins switched production to. If not appropriate to mention here, please PM me.
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