Troels has just released a new “the loudspeaker” no. III which is a little smaller than the original or version II.
The-Loudspeaker-III
Uses moderately priced components except the Hypex plate amps for the bass and the box looks pretty complicated but I am sure it could be simplifies quite a bit but keeping the fron baffle dimensions/angles the same.
The-Loudspeaker-III
Uses moderately priced components except the Hypex plate amps for the bass and the box looks pretty complicated but I am sure it could be simplifies quite a bit but keeping the fron baffle dimensions/angles the same.
As exciting as these Gravesen projects seem, the price of two 18" bass driver already exceeds 1000$, sadly this is far beyond my budget.
Are there any members out here building a poor man's Gravesen Loudspeaker? or poor man's Klipsh Heritage / Cornwall? I'll make my own research of course.
Let's say I have a budget of 700$ for drivers and crossover, excluding the cost of wood and other bits. I think that's about as far as I can go for the moment.
Are there any members out here building a poor man's Gravesen Loudspeaker? or poor man's Klipsh Heritage / Cornwall? I'll make my own research of course.
Let's say I have a budget of 700$ for drivers and crossover, excluding the cost of wood and other bits. I think that's about as far as I can go for the moment.
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High sensitivity means that you will get more output from the loudspeaker with a low power amp or when the amp is still operating at lower output levels.
Some "detailed" speaker have an uneven frequency response, with more emphasis on the mid frequencies; so even at lower volumes the mids are more prominent and you get a lot of mid-range detail (as those frequency ranges are boosted). Coincidentally some of the higher efficiency speakers fall under this category.
High efficiency itself will not automatically guarantee detailed sound or enjoyable sound.
I have seen 2 Internet reviewers talk positively about the Klpisch Heresy IV loudspeaker, but a here's a review from someone who did listening tests and measurements:
Klipsch Heresy IV Speaker Review
You can skip towards the end to read his subjective thoughts.
If you have a 20 sq meter room and listen to music at relatively low levels a good 8" driver might be just enough to satisfy you. Some 6.5" or 8" driver will go deep (say in the 30s) in the right cabinet, but will not go very loud; some 12" drivers will go loud and have slam, but will not go very low.
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I'd like to take a moment to thank each of you already, how helpful you guys have been!
I've increased my budget quite a bit. I wanted to buy myself new 1200€ in-ear monitors, but that'll be for later.
My new total budget is thus 1200€. Of course, if I could get something below this price point, it would allow me to invest in a nice amp to drive these hypothetical speakers aha.
I've contacted Troes Gravesen to inquire about the new Loudspeaker-III. Perhaps I can make that work within my budget range. Now I'm just concerned about my room layout, as I don't have any other way to place the speakers other than what I showed in my plan.
Any other leads in the 1000–1200€ range is more than welcome!
I've increased my budget quite a bit. I wanted to buy myself new 1200€ in-ear monitors, but that'll be for later.
My new total budget is thus 1200€. Of course, if I could get something below this price point, it would allow me to invest in a nice amp to drive these hypothetical speakers aha.
I've contacted Troes Gravesen to inquire about the new Loudspeaker-III. Perhaps I can make that work within my budget range. Now I'm just concerned about my room layout, as I don't have any other way to place the speakers other than what I showed in my plan.
Any other leads in the 1000–1200€ range is more than welcome!
For your room a big speaker like JBL 4345 or the TG Loudspeaker might become a problem. I still believe a 12” is what you want. As you have doubled your budget you have more flexibility in the design but also adds more complexity with a 3-way. Remember this is your first project. 1200 is a lot of money if it fails.
What you could do is build a aprox 100l cabinet (BHD 45x75x30cm inner dimension and make the front baffle detachable so you can replace/add drivers when you want to upgrade or feel confident to add to the crossover complexity.
With a 45cm wide baffle you can choose from 12” and 15” driver and with the 75cm height you have room for three way horn or traditional as well but I suggest you start with a 12” two way design to reduce complexity.
Check out PI 4 speaker (15”): Pi Speaker Kits, four Pi kit
What you could do is build a aprox 100l cabinet (BHD 45x75x30cm inner dimension and make the front baffle detachable so you can replace/add drivers when you want to upgrade or feel confident to add to the crossover complexity.
With a 45cm wide baffle you can choose from 12” and 15” driver and with the 75cm height you have room for three way horn or traditional as well but I suggest you start with a 12” two way design to reduce complexity.
Check out PI 4 speaker (15”): Pi Speaker Kits, four Pi kit
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That is the way I went with one project. JBL 4507 5 cu ft box, JBL 2235H, B&C DE 250. Cross over is copy of JBL 4430 Monitor for bass, top end is Zilch's E-wave cross over. Ewave #4.
Basically it is a 4430 clone, to this date one of the best sounding I have had, although a bit Frankenstein Lab looking...Oh, plenty of powerful bass BTW!
Russellc
That is the way I went with one project. JBL 4507 5 cu ft box, JBL 2235H, B&C DE 250. Cross over is copy of JBL 4430 Monitor for bass, top end is Zilch's E-wave cross over. Ewave #4.
Basically it is a 4430 clone, to this date one of the best sounding I have had, although a bit Frankenstein Lab looking...Oh, plenty of powerful bass BTW!
Russellc
Would love to see pictures of your build, it sounds very nice!
I've sent an email to Troels Gravesen to which he replied immediately. I sent him a plan of my room and a detailed set of requirements and he replied that The Loudspeaker-III would be a perfect fit, with the horn having 'extremely good dispersion' and the Hypex Module allowing me to tune the bass to reduce room-gain.
Drivers alone are 1100€. Can I realistically consider this to be a 1500€ project once I factor in the crossover parts and the bit and bobs?
Loudspeaker-III seems like a crazy good speaker, with a lot of wiggle room for cabinet design according to Troels. I might just be able to get my 4430 clone!
The Loudspeaker 3 looks like a great speaker yes and Im sure it will fit your need by a ton.
But its a lot of money and high complexity for a first project, you need to plan this quite a bit and see if there are things that could be simplified a bit 🙂
Cant wait to see your end result as Im planning to build something similar myself next summer (but a lot less complex).
But its a lot of money and high complexity for a first project, you need to plan this quite a bit and see if there are things that could be simplified a bit 🙂
Cant wait to see your end result as Im planning to build something similar myself next summer (but a lot less complex).
It is indeed a lot of money. 1650euros, excluding crossovers actually. It think in the end, it's more in the ballpark of 2200euros.
That might be a tad too much actually. So, I'm back to looking at other options sadly. I can't tell right now if I'll be able to build these.
I guess why TG's designs, it's impossible to bring the cost down because he's somewhat forcing you to buy the caps and materials from Jansen, which is understandable.
Id look at something less complex for your first project.
Simple two-way, 12"+horn, or perhaps a three way with somewhat cheaper components.
You can always have a bit larger box to get more low end.
Simple two-way, 12"+horn, or perhaps a three way with somewhat cheaper components.
You can always have a bit larger box to get more low end.
Troy Gravelsen recommended his Faital 3WC-15 design if I wanted to get something a little cheaper. I think that ticks of lot a boxes: extremely sensitive, 15" woofer, the cabinet can be tweaked to increase bass response, etc.
Maybe what I'm going to say is stupid but, I don't really intend on building more than one set of speakers. That's why I'd like to get something very very good to boot.
I'm going the DIY way to get a great bang for my buck. I know that by building a 2500$ speaker, I'll never get anything better even if I shelled out 5-10 times the price of name brand speakers.
I'm not afraid of taking things slowly and learning as I go, I mean, I'll have all the parts and all the time in the world.
I'm more interested in building amps for these speakers, especially tube. So the idea is to invest in a reference set of speakers first, and then play around building amps. If that makes sense.
Thats a better/less complex kit imo and probably a good choice. No active/DSP and the cabinet is simple straight forward build. Not sure why they designed it with neodymium magnets though, weight isn't really a problem in this application and you could probably save another 200 by using traditional magnet drivers. But I think you're getting closer to something sensible for a first project.
I would also go a different direction than Troels, Troels makes great systems but they are (too) expensive, and can be made as good cheaper. If you want go further than ready made kits, you can use better drivers that are more detailed in their sound. But those are not that sensitive. I'm busy designing (but it's a long work) a 3 way kit (dome tweeter, 6" midwoofer, 12" subwoofer) that can be build below 1000€ and many designs are made like that. 86dB efficient and relative (+/- 6dB) flat from 30 to +20kHz is the goal.
But it's not that Troels designs are crap, they are very well thought of and sound very good (at least those i heared). If you want to pay the price for it, they can be the solution. It's just that they are expensive for what they are.
But it's not that Troels designs are crap, they are very well thought of and sound very good (at least those i heared). If you want to pay the price for it, they can be the solution. It's just that they are expensive for what they are.
Similar design with Eminence drivers, all qty 2:
Eminence Kappa-15LFA 15" Low Frequency Driver 8 Ohm =$259.98
Eminence Alpha-6CBMRA 6-1/2" Ferrite Sealed Back Midrange Speaker Driver=$109.98
Eminence H290S 1" Bi-Radial Horn 90 x 40 1-3/8"-18 TPI Screw-On=$69.98
Eminence ASD1001 1" HF Titanium Horn Driver 1-3/8"-18 TPI=$69.98
Eminence PXB3:5K0 3-Way Speaker Crossover Board 500/5,000 Hz=$159.98
Product Total $669.90
Tons of options in this price range, this was just an example.
Eminence Kappa-15LFA 15" Low Frequency Driver 8 Ohm =$259.98
Eminence Alpha-6CBMRA 6-1/2" Ferrite Sealed Back Midrange Speaker Driver=$109.98
Eminence H290S 1" Bi-Radial Horn 90 x 40 1-3/8"-18 TPI Screw-On=$69.98
Eminence ASD1001 1" HF Titanium Horn Driver 1-3/8"-18 TPI=$69.98
Eminence PXB3:5K0 3-Way Speaker Crossover Board 500/5,000 Hz=$159.98
Product Total $669.90
Tons of options in this price range, this was just an example.
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What's the problem with active? Is it a lot more difficult?
Here's someone of build one of Gravesen's kit, but separated the subwoofer to its own cabinet powered by an Hypex amp. Is it a good strategy? Starting with a rock solid active sub and adding a passive mid-drivers and tweeter on top?
I did check, I can't find many information about these unfortunately. I don't really like the corner horns, I might move next year and I'd be devastated if I cannot re-use the system I would have built. Corner speakers seems like too precise of a use.
That sounds great, I'd love to follow your project.
I thought that the expensive part of Troel's design were his crossover, as they always use high-end electronic parts. Am I wrong?
I bumped into this website many times but I cannot find any informations about any of their speakers, they have such a wide choice, it's weird no one wrote anything about any of them. Am I mistaken? Do you have experience with their speakers? That'd be convenient, as Germany is right next door to me.
There is nothing wrong with active, dsp or a hybrid solution of passive tops and active subs in different cabinets or the same. It’s all about how many “variables” are you comfortable in tuning in your project parameters. The more parameters the higher the complexity and cost, and also higher risk of failure. You just need to find the right level for your competence, experience and budget and what risk you are willing to take. First project usually something goes wrong but if you create a modular design then it might be easier to adjust the errors. A separate sub and top might be a good approach here, active or not you could just place the crossover components (or amps if you go with sap) in a separate enclosure much like a traditional PA. I’m sure the TG speaker are great. But to me they look a bit overkill: advanced cabinet angles, very expensive xo parts, neodymium magnets, plate amps. What you gain with all this might be worth it to some high end audiophiles but for most people a simple design has better performance/cost ratio. You just need to find the right level for you. A fully active DSP system with three 19” crown amps would definitely give you all the flexibility in the world in terms of choosing drivers that wouldn’t perhaps fit in a passive design. I typically always go for effortless and low complexity designs but the end result will never be 100%, on the other hand I am totally aware of the limitations as they are part of the design compromises to save cost or reduse risk in overly complicated projects. I’ve made approx 10 pair of speakers and 5 subs in the last two decades but I consider myself an amateur still as my projects are always quite simple. And usually I am happy with simple designs and compromises. I totally support you in making a 15” sub and 2-way top system, passive or active is up to you and your budget and willingness to tune in errors after first listen. Start to sketching up some draft drawings and component list and go from there. Also try some simulation software before buying any wood or drivers.
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Some inspiration from a parallel thread.
http://www.humblehomemadehifi.com/download/Humble Homemade Hifi_Calpamos.pdf
http://www.humblehomemadehifi.com/download/Humble Homemade Hifi_Calpamos.pdf